Tenser's Transformation

[Heroic Spirit]

My posts always just kinda sink and vanish into the abyss, but let's talk about Tenser's Transformation.

I've seen many variants of the spell:

You endow yourself with endurance and martial prowess fueled by magic. Until the spell ends, you can’t cast spells, and you gain the following benefits:
- You gain 50 temporary hit points. If any of these remain when the spell ends, they are lost.
- You have advantage on attack rolls that you make with simple and martial weapons.
- When you hit a target with a weapon attack, that target takes an extra 2d12 force
damage.
- You have proficiency with all armor, shields, simple weapons, and martial weapons.
- You have proficiency in Strength and Constitution saving throws.
- You can attack twice, instead of once, when you take the Attack action on your turn. You ignore this benefit if you already have a feature, like Extra Attack, that gives you extra attacks.

Immediately after the spell ends, you must succeed on a DC 15 Constitution saving throw or suffer one level of exhaustion.

or

You gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, a +4 natural armor bonus to AC, a +5 competence bonus on Fortitude saves, and proficiency with all simple and martial weapons. Your base attack bonus equals your character level (which may give you multiple attacks).

You lose your spell-casting ability, including your ability to use spell trigger or spell completion magic items, just as if the spells were no longer on your class list.

And they all have a few things in common. The caster in question:

1. hits harder, either in terms of additional STR or bonus damage on their weapon.
2. is more durable - be it temporary hp or a CON increase
3. gains additional attacks
4. gains proficiency with all simple and martial weapons
5. gains arcane spell failure

However, NWN's depiction of the spell seems sort of lackluster to me - a polymorph with a +3 flaming 1d6 sword. Polymorphs have always seemed subsumption to me, aside from the elemental forms that Arelith has brought about. (I mean, let's not even get into the class that lives in polymorph)

With True Strike's spell-sword addition of adding the extra attack, I, at least, know that the feat is possible via scripting. The other bonuses wouldn't be difficult to implement either. I won't make a mention about the balance it would bring, but how would you veteran Arelith players feel about the spell if it were implemented this way?

Better yet, does anyone have a story of Tenser actually being utilized effectively in it's current state?

[Ecthelion]

I know some sorcerers and wizards that use it even in epics. Perhaps more for the fun that actual efficiency, I don't know.

[CptJonas]

It have its uses...many of them actualy...
You can be quite tanky...
You can climb..
You can move while encumbered...
You can stack its HP for temporary HP boost...
You can combine it with combat ready from Wmage..

There are many uses...as with other spells....And there are many..many spells what are much more uselles then this...

[RedGiant]

Tenser's is amazing on nearly pure casters...and the more caster levels the better it is. Especially for non-spellswords, this gives the option for the caster to become temporary melee powerhouses. I really wouldn't touch it.

[LIonGraphiK]

The spell is already powerful in the right situations. I doubt it needs reworking or buffing.

[Nitro]

Tenser's is amazing on nearly pure casters...and the more caster levels the better it is. Especially for non-spellswords, this gives the option for the caster to become temporary melee powerhouses.

Excuse me what?

This is what you're looking at unbuffed, presuming you took some suboptimal feats like armour skin. You could gimp yourself even more for weapon focuses but I charitably assumed no regular pure caster would be dumb enough to do that. (Pure caster selected only to display how abysmal tensers is even when it gets its maximum scaling)

So, you could beef your ac up to 41 with EMA, 51 if you for some reason took improved expertise (but that would also be a really weird feat choice), so what you get is a squishy melee with bad AB, only 4 APR , really crappy damage, gear merging that messes up your spellslots and the inability to use any consumables except potions. There's nothing about it that's beefy or threatening. Even if you multiclass with the express intent to use Tensers you end up being a much worse fighter while in the form, and a worse mage when outside it.

[CptJonas]

Tenser's is amazing on nearly pure casters...and the more caster levels the better it is. Especially for non-spellswords, this gives the option for the caster to become temporary melee powerhouses.

Excuse me what?

This is what you're looking at unbuffed, presuming you took some suboptimal feats like armour skin. You could gimp yourself even more for weapon focuses but I charitably assumed no regular pure caster would be dumb enough to do that. (Pure caster selected only to display how abysmal tensers is even when it gets its maximum scaling)

So, you could beef your ac up to 41 with EMA, 51 if you for some reason took improved expertise (but that would also be a really weird feat choice), so what you get is a squishy melee with bad AB, only 4 APR , really crappy damage, gear merging that messes up your spellslots and the inability to use any consumables except potions. There's nothing about it that's beefy or threatening. Even if you multiclass with the express intent to use Tensers you end up being a much worse fighter while in the form, and a worse mage when outside it.

You probably dont know what are you talking about...no ofense please...

You dont mess up with your spellslots...
And I have 49 ac with EMA on suboptimal build.....Not 4 APR....5..You use haste yourself before you use it....and you full buff yourself before you use it....you basicly end up like beefy fighter with low damage...
And you shouldnt be powerhouse....it have its uses...And its totaly fine for PVE..

[RedGiant]

An unbuffed screenshot of Tenser's proves not a lot.

There are any number of combinations that when (and I can't believe I need to say this) are buffed make it useful in any number of scenarios. Most often, as CPT Jonas said, to chew through PvE content or even as a nice back-up when you are down on spells. I also don't scoff at 40+ AB and 40-50 AC on a nearly pure arcane caster. Also, there are many combinations which make it much better. I shant discuss the here because I really don't want to encourage the nerf train.

[Sea Shanties]

I think it's a great spell for level 15-low 20something PVE, after that it's probably not what you want to be using to fight the most dangerous enemies. It's also very effective for mining resources.

Some spells are good for a while when leveling but don't have much use at the end game. I don't think everything in the spellbook needs to be of maximum effectiveness from the day you get it until level 30. If shapechanging as a wizard is your thing it's more or less a middle ground between polymorph self and shapechange, though honestly arcane shapechanging is always a situational gimmick not something to build a character around.

On the other hand there is a lot of potential if some dev wanted to get creative. Like instead of becoming a doom knight for whatever reason, make the wizard 150% their normal size with a BAB boost and huge buffs. This is a spell where if you change it you may as well make it ridiculous.

[TimeAdept]

Tenser's is useless. The class is called "Spellsword", it's what you take if you want to melee.

[CptJonas]

Tenser's is useless. The class is called "Spellsword", it's what you take if you want to melee.

Well..there are some uses....

And one perticular wombo combo which can be quite Epic PVE usefull.....

[TimeAdept]

Tenser's + Wild Mage Combat Reay is not a "wombo combo." Do you know why? Because that mage can pull out a bronze longsword, GMW it, surge Combat Ready, and be able to fight much better, and with full access to their spells, still. They will have more STR/CON outside of Tenser's, likely, because Tenser's does not merge any of their equipment, at all, which means they're also going to be down a bunch of stats, skills and saves bonuses. You're also stuck using a non keen +3 weapon that you can't use a temporary essence on or change anything about, as opposed to a weapon you could flame weapon, keen edge, or GMW, and follow up with Combat Ready and EMA.

Tenser's is hot garbage, and if you think it's good, it's because you're playing suboptimally. That's fine that you made it work, but it's not useful, you're just being carried by summons and being a high level arcane caster in easy content. 49 AC is not a lot.

Once again, if you really want to arcane melee, you play Spellsword.

[RedGiant]

You get to be spell-sword like/light...on demand. This is not hot garbage. This is radically useful to a mage, especially when you're out of other spells, and yes, even on end run content.

To me this thread smacks of spellswords (and others) fishing for yet another buff at the expense of a useful tool in the traditional caster's arsenal.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

While the spell is certainly not an optimal presentation of a melee character, claiming something that isn't optimal is automatically useless is patently false (they are not mutually exclusive states of being). At end-game content you should really be trying to party up, but Tenser's will do in a pinch right up into your early epics; it's a good "last spell," to cast, making you somewhat capable of dealing damage with your party to most things that aren't bosses (and a good few of them, too, besides) and giving you the ability to survive alongside them. Or to survive long enough to GTFO when soloing as you run out of other spells.

Presenting it unbuffed is entirely unrelated, because, to paraphrase, if you're shapeshifting without buffing first, you're playing sub-optimally. You're going to throw +5 nat ac from shadowshield on there, +4 deflection from shield, +4 dodge from (most likely, extended) haste, +1 dodge from mage armor, ANOTHER +1 dodge from shadow mage armor, you probably have some extended acid sheathes and mind blanks up, and maybe even an improved invisibility. Maybe a protection from spells. Spell mantles, as extra precautions against breaches (and greater stoneskin and stoneskin on top of your premonition, for the same reason). Energy protection spells.

You can kill vastly more enemies with this setup across multiple screens than you can any single casting of chain lightning or delayed blast fireball (because, let's face it, you're going to extend this spell as your last hurrah).

Make Tenser's stronger if you like, but claiming it is useless shows a willfully blind eye to the versatility that is part of the depth of the mage class.

[Kuma]

Remove the polymorph. Make the caster basically a spellsword of that level with all armour and weapon profs, and weapon finesse, but 100% spell failure. Keep the temp HP and some stat boosts. Maybe have Transmutation focuses buff it somehow. More useful, more aesthetic, more options, closer to PnP.

[RedGiant]

PnP Tensers would utterly break Spellswords (Like giving them an aura of vitality, +5 fortsaves, and CL=BaB).

Kuma suggestion; I'm curious here. Make pure casters carry around armor? And since they cant cast they can't imbue? And a 1/2 AB progression turns into a 3/4, giving a mage +5 to AB instead of the extra +15 to AB possible with vanilla Tenser's?

All I'm seeing is downgrades to something generally claimed to be useless, which many players, myself included, like a lot. Some have even built for current functionality.

I'm generally all for cookies, but this takes away things from existing characters. The new monk update is a great example of how to change things...mostly (RIP speed/last chance to play a convenience character)...without hamstringing a bunch of folks. If there is a way to do it here, I'm all ears.

If we NEED to change something (I don't think we do), I guess it would not be too objectionable to dump the polymorph effect. Maybe a more elegant way of improving Tensers, without gutting current functionality, would be to script a variable, disappearing weapon based on a character's weapon foci (if any)? This weapon could improve over time so the damage isn't quite as lackluster? I think messing with the stating or buffing a mage's current stats would likely buff spellswords. beyond sanity. Its late...not coming up with any ideas here that wouldn't break the balance.

[CptJonas]

Tenser's + Wild Mage Combat Reay is not a "wombo combo." Do you know why? Because that mage can pull out a bronze longsword, GMW it, surge Combat Ready, and be able to fight much better, and with full access to their spells, still. They will have more STR/CON outside of Tenser's, likely, because Tenser's does not merge any of their equipment, at all, which means they're also going to be down a bunch of stats, skills and saves bonuses. You're also stuck using a non keen +3 weapon that you can't use a temporary essence on or change anything about, as opposed to a weapon you could flame weapon, keen edge, or GMW, and follow up with Combat Ready and EMA.

Tenser's is hot garbage, and if you think it's good, it's because you're playing suboptimally. That's fine that you made it work, but it's not useful, you're just being carried by summons and being a high level arcane caster in easy content. 49 AC is not a lot.

Once again, if you really want to arcane melee, you play Spellsword.

I am done speaking with you....
If 50 AC, 46 AB, 5 APR, 38 average damage on hit, is hot garbage....Then 1st...you are trash talking moust of melle builds on arelith bcs moust of them would not have better stats....2....you never played any PVE content on arelith...Bcs I am literaly doing all engame content dungeons in Tenser, and I have similar DPR as many of our melle boys in party...(sometimes more bcs some creeps are imunite to some elemental damage, and tensert does 90% psychical)...

And...Tenser is kind of good for PVE.....And for PVP it would never be a thing which is good....(even if it would get buffed....enemies will still dispel you out of it in first round, and you dont have enough discipline)

This is spell on 6 th circle...you are playing mage....not druid...This shouldnt be central point of your build.....

And what more...any change/big buff to it would brake SS..which is allready wizard path which you would go if you wanted this playstyle so badly....

If I would buff anything on Tenser....well...give him 15-20 discipline..or give him knockdown imunity....you lose discipline on your gear....and tenser works best on pure caster anyway, so it would be nice.....(it wouldnt brake any game balance)
I would be happy to not get knocked down while I am cuting down Dragons

Thats all what I have to say....

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Oh, by the way- relevant to getting more mileage out of the spell in question- at least for casters who prepare spells. Over the years I've learned this one just never occurs to some people; it took me a few years myself! It's a (little) bit of extra work, BUT.

When you're preparing your spells, prepare all your longest buffs in your last spell slots. Bonus spell slots that are lost in polymorph are lost from right to left, so memorize your spells accordingly, and when you transform, all the spells you would normally have lost have already been cast- instead, you'll be left with the rest of your spell allotment. The brilliance of the Arelith team allows you to restore your spellbook easily after the polymorph is over.

I don't play sorcerers, so I couldn't tell you if they can save them in a similar fashion by casting their "bonus" spells before losing them.

Hopefully this helps someone get a little more mileage out of it!