Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Tarkus the dog » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:27 pm

Alantar wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:56 pm
The Ironhorn can be cast from a wand every six seconds so almost every class can make use of infinite Ironhors (not hasted, of course). Even if not from a wand, any epic mage or sorcerer can cast more than enough Ironhors for a PvP encounter.

As it has been stated, there are many ways to counter it and, apart from this, I agree with the idea that not every class should be in an equal position fighting each other. To put it briefly, I don't think the spell needs to be nerfed, at all.
Wand Iron horn =/= Warlock Iron horn.

Mages can't have infinite Iron Horns.

Posting on Arelith forums sometimes is like trying to talk to a wall at this point.
Last edited by Tarkus the dog on Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Sockss » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:27 pm

Disciprine Come From Within wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:58 am
So, I still see some issues with the Math. Rogues go for Epic Dodge so most are going to have base 25-26 Dex. That's 1 more AC than you put out.
No dude, you're not going to be wearing lighter than leather armour on a rogue.
You are capped at 6 Dex mod, then you get capped for your light armour bonus at 6 at 24, so you're at +12. Whether or not your dex mod is higher.
Disciprine Come From Within wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:58 am
I also noticed you didn't bring up the Warlock's touch attack AB.

20 at level 30 + Dex Mod + 5 GMW.
Did you read it?

Here: Average AB of a warlock is 20+8+4 = 32

8 Dex (2 mod starting, the rest buffed)
4 GMW

This is not with a +4 2h weapon slotted and it's not buffed with ab boosts. This can be higher easily.
Disciprine Come From Within wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:58 am
That is 35 + 1d20 vs 49. About a 30% chance. So actually better odds on the warlock hitting than you stated with direct blasts, but concealment does make that lower still.
This is exactly 35% chance, not about 30. It's, pretty basic.
Concealment will lower that to 26.25% (If the warlock isn't removing that)

Of course this all goes out of the window when you look at the warlock doing any number of things to increase their AB, to flatfoot etc.
Disciprine Come From Within wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:58 am
Yes, I pulled the 120 damage out of thin air after playing a 24/6 Rogue for several months and watching the general damage of firebombs which I used for fighting dragons as the damage and distance was far superior to gonnes. Gonne shots are really close compared to Rogue Firebomb use. It's enough to even make a long range spell like Ice Storm difficult to target if you're going to stick to long range vs long range.
Yes you did.

The distance is superior, but not the damage.

Nothing in NWN is difficult to target.
Disciprine Come From Within wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:58 am
You're assuming a fight where a Warlock gets the opportunity to use all it's damage with relative ease. I'm assuming a fight where a Rogue burns his action and works to minimize other actions by the opposition. Standing still is your enemy and letting a warlock cast and sick his fiend on you is an easy death. A rogue will be constantly moving and will have to work harder than the warlock will to win. But it's still possible and I think easier than you think. Especially if people read your numbers game and get complacent.
Anything is possible, that is how d20 works. However we're looking at being given relatively stable rolls and equal skill. (Something which rarely happens but it's pointless to look at it any other way)
Disciprine Come From Within wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:58 am
As for your resources argument, I probably stashed way more of those grenades playing than I even would use on my Rogue. They were easy to acquire and plenty of other characters happily handed them over if they knew I'd take them for free. They are finite and they do cost weight, but it's not like carrying 30-40 of them for a fight is hard or even a pain to replenish. Most of my Rogue's weight when I was playing was on those grenades.
Okay.

Presume infinite resources. (Though I'd argue you're far less likely to be carrying more grenades than the warlock kits)

You're not going to kill a warlock with 85 damage a round.

For all your resource use they can happily heal.

While they PT1 a summon on you.
Disciprine Come From Within wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:58 am
There are other strategies too that I could think of, many of them based on corner sneaking advantages, exploiting overaggressive play, and even fishing for 1s on a few other grenades. Also equally amusing that your retort argument didn't involve the very spell that's being talked about as a problem. Instead it was Ice Storm spam assuming easy haste wand use (A finite resource) and how every rogue action = death because of it. Maybe you should be arguing for Ice Storm to have that cooldown instead.
We were talking about the easy IH counter you proposed of not going into combat. Specifically.

While I'm sure you've done very well corner sneaking, exploiting over aggressive play and fishing for 1's on Arelith. These things don't work so well on people who actually have a clue.

Can we at least agree that chucking out 85 damage a round is an exercise in futility?
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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:31 pm

Just putting this out there since it came up- ice storm (the top end of a warlock's offensive ability) has an innate spell level of 4.

This means it also gets stopped by globes alongside the horn (and basically everything else the warlock can do except summon a fiend- which is what WoF and Banish are for).
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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by a1b2 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:03 am

No cooldown. Warlocks are already limited enough. People like to complain that warlocks do so much damage, yet ignore that with simple strats. you can beat warlocks down fairly easily. That is the reason that the rocklock became a thing in the first place.

anyway, back to the point, dex players have the only AC that warlocks can miss with any sort of consisancy. having the horn means there is at least one tactic that can be used.

Stop complaining about a tactic someone used to kill you, you've killed others plenty of times using various methods and no one should be complaining you should be nerfed because they died from X tactic.

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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Tarkus the dog » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:10 am

having the horn means there is at least one tactic that can be used
Having the iron horn means that they win no matter what which is the reason for my post to begin with. Warlock has absolutely more than one tactic to beat a high touch AC character. Please pay attention to all the posts and the counter arguments before posting.
Stop complaining about a tactic someone used to kill you, you've killed others plenty of times using various methods and no one should be complaining you should be nerfed because they died from X tactic.
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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Aniel » Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:16 am

a1b2 wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:03 am
Stop complaining about a tactic someone used to kill you, you've killed others plenty of times using various methods and no one should be complaining you should be nerfed because they died from X tactic.
Imagine actually immediately assuming bad faith whilst gish galloping around and ignoring the central argument being made. Imagine defaulting to any suggestion regarding a change being met with 'it must be because you're mad and bad' instead of trying to critically approach it.

Imagine someone actually doing that.
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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Griefmaker » Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:27 pm

Aniel wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:16 am
a1b2 wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:03 am
Stop complaining about a tactic someone used to kill you, you've killed others plenty of times using various methods and no one should be complaining you should be nerfed because they died from X tactic.
Imagine actually immediately assuming bad faith whilst gish galloping around and ignoring the central argument being made. Imagine defaulting to any suggestion regarding a change being met with 'it must be because you're mad and bad' instead of trying to critically approach it.

Imagine someone actually doing that.
Imagine every character who does not have discipline meeting someone with KD that spams it and being in the exact same boat. What are they told to do? Get discipline. Get a friend. Or do what happens when you cannot fight someone: Run away.

In this case, get strength. Get a friend. Find one of the other ways to counter it. Run away and do not fight that particular foe.

Warlocks are apparently strong against one particular subset of characters...kind of like someone with KD and high AB is against low discipline characters. Or any caster against low save characters. Fortunately, they do have overt weakness too as I can tear them apart on either a wizard or a cleric with ease, so the rock-paper-scissors strength-weakness factor is there. Probably more classes that can kill them easily too, but I do not care enough to find out.

Start adding CDs to one thing, might as well start adding CDs to KD, then heck, why stop there? CDs to sneak attacks, crits (one per round only...sorry WM and 10-20 crit guys!). But that is not enough! Let's add CDs to IGMS storms, because a few of those cast one after another can kill someone who is not prepared too.

This entire topic is simply sour grapes and I am thankful the devs will realize it too and ignore it.

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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Tarkus the dog » Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:49 pm

Warlocks are apparently strong against one particular subset of characters...
50% of all characters in the game is a little bit more than "one particular subset of characters".

The whole point is that the iron horn can be used over and over again. Forever. There's not a limit to it. Mages are limited by their usage of iron horn, and in that scenario the spell is more or less fine. Warlocks are not. This is the bread and butter of my argument, and no matter how many times I repeat myself someone will find a way to ignore it and post another "just use ghostly" comment as if to troll on purpose. Or do what you did, bring up the 'knockdown', for some reason.

Discipline, on the other hand, is crucial to every single character in the game, including pure wizards. If you are not gearing for discipline ( which is, and I'm saying this for the last time, hilariously easy to get/gear) then you have no right to complain about the knockdown feat. If Iron Horn had a discipline check, this wouldn't be an issue at all. Every time I see someone bring up knockdown as an overtuned feat it's like reading "My knowledge of NWN is very limited and I probably should't be posting on the forums least I embarrass myself publicly." In fact, adding a CD to knockdown won't change a thing about any class in the game. If you were to say "disarm should be on cooldown" I would be very much happy to agree with you. But instead you've confirmed to the entire community that you haven't a clue what you're talking about.

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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by strong yeet » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:22 am

Griefmaker wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:27 pm
Imagine every character who does not have discipline meeting someone with KD that spams it and being in the exact same boat. What are they told to do? Get discipline. Get a friend. Or do what happens when you cannot fight someone: Run away.


In this case, get strength. Get a friend. Find one of the other ways to counter it. Run away and do not fight that particular foe.
I do not think you have read this thread. My entire point as that "getting strength" is not an option, unlike with every other sort of stat. You can take feats and wear gear to get more Reflex save, you can take skill ranks (whether cross-classed or not) and wear gear to get more discipline.

You cannot just "get strength." I find it hard to believe that this post wasn't made in some kind of bad-faith trolling attempt simply because of how ridiculous of a thing to say that this really is.
Warlocks are apparently strong against one particular subset of characters...kind of like someone with KD and high AB is against low discipline characters. Or any caster against low save characters. Fortunately, they do have overt weakness too as I can tear them apart on either a wizard or a cleric with ease, so the rock-paper-scissors strength-weakness factor is there. Probably more classes that can kill them easily too, but I do not care enough to find out.
Convenient how you fail to mention just exactly how this so-called "rock paper scissors" comes into play when you assert that you can "tear them apart with ease" on the two classes warlock is a pretty stark counter to. Yeah, play a buff-reliant meleer against a caster with infinite dispels! Great idea. Or a wizard, against a 600-700 health character with GSF abjuration and nearly perfect saving throws.

It's almost impressive how thoroughly you've managed to be wrong.
Start adding CDs to one thing, might as well start adding CDs to KD, then heck, why stop there? CDs to sneak attacks, crits (one per round only...sorry WM and 10-20 crit guys!). But that is not enough! Let's add CDs to IGMS storms, because a few of those cast one after another can kill someone who is not prepared too.
All of these things have counters and ways to mitigate them that are not incredibly specific and based on weird quirks or super specific UMD counters that are useless in every other situation (minor globe from a wand being unbreachable, whilst its casted form is breachable; greater shadow conjuration scrolls). Kind of the point of the thread, though I think we've well established by now that you haven't quite gotten it.
This entire topic is simply sour grapes and I am thankful the devs will realize it too and ignore it.
I haven't known Tarkus to play anything but scimitar WM after scimitar WM for several years now, funnily enough.

... you know, one of those characters that doesn't really care so much about Balagarn's. Why does every concern that someone has with a facet of mechanical balancing always steeped in some Snuggybear-mad reaction? Maybe some things are just a little too good. That's okay, because we want these things to be fixed. There's nothing wrong with that.
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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Ork » Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:20 am

This thread:

OP: "Here's something that needs a look"
Every other post: "IT DOESN'T NEED A LOOK"

Why. Devs will take note of this or not. It's really embarrassing to reply with limited experience and wrong mechanics as justification for why OP is wrong.

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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Naiinara » Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:22 am

strong yeet wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:22 am
All of these things have counters and ways to mitigate them that are not incredibly specific and based on weird quirks or super specific UMD counters that are useless in every other situation (minor globe from a wand being unbreachable, whilst its casted form is breachable; greater shadow conjuration scrolls). Kind of the point of the thread, though I think we've well established by now that you haven't quite gotten it.
Well first warlocks use the bard based balagarn's iron horn, which happens to be a level 1 spell. This means that regular old ghostly visage will work even. I've not heard about minor globe from a wand being unbreachable. Perhaps this is a new bug with the enhanced edition? What I do know is that spells (aside shadow conjuration mage armor) from the shadow conjuration spells are all unbreachable.
strong yeet wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:22 am
Convenient how you fail to mention just exactly how this so-called "rock paper scissors" comes into play when you assert that you can "tear them apart with ease" on the two classes warlock is a pretty stark counter to. Yeah, play a buff-reliant meleer against a caster with infinite dispels! Great idea. Or a wizard, against a 600-700 health character with GSF abjuration and nearly perfect saving throws.
Warlocks are also weak against balagarn's iron horn. You can also help sap their strength with a negative energy burst. That drains strength with no saving throw. The shadows summoned from shades will also nicely drain strength. Incendiary cloud blinds with no save.

Clerics can as one tactic use silence. If a cleric casts it on herself anyone entering that aura will be silenced no save. Last I checked silence even shuts down epic spells; though, often is more convenient to just cast silence on a summon. And let's not forget a cleric has spell resistance.

Now of course all these tactics a clever warlock might try and counter, so like with any battle with a clever spell caster you have to think on your feet. I don't know how many warlocks take silent spell. I did know one that used lesser dispel. See lesser dispel requires only a somatic component so he could still use the eldritch blast.

I'm struggling to see the difference between using iron horn after iron horn and another caster just spamming say fear until the target fails a will save. Both could be the end for you if you refuse to either use clarity or mindblank or ghostly visage. Low will save characters definitely would want some mind protection against fear. Low strength characters definitely are going to want some protection against iron horn.

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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Ork » Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:25 am

Naiinara wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:22 am
I'm struggling to see the difference between using iron horn after iron horn and another caster just spamming say fear until the target fails a will save.
Read the thread if you're asking yourself why balagarn's is different than save spells.

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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Naiinara » Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:36 am

Ork wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:25 am
Read the thread if you're asking yourself why balagarn's is different than save spells.
I did. What you're attempting is semantics. Is it different? Yes, it's a strength check of DC 20 whereas fear is a will save. But there are plenty of spells that allow no saves versus effects, and we all learn to counter those. My point was people should learn to counter this.

Bigby's forceful hand also has a strength check to avoid being bull rushed, so a dc strength check is not some aberrant thing. And bigbys strength had a +14 modifier I believe. Before arelith changes there was no save, just bullrush. Arelith added a reflex and I think freedom of movement and mind protection if you use both will help. Now balagarn's has a only +5 modifier, and a reliable single spell counter. Or Casting some bull's strenght on oneself, using a strength skleen on top, maybe switching out and getting some strength gear to help? Or you can just use ghostly visage.
Last edited by Naiinara on Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Aniel » Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:37 am

Griefmaker wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:27 pm
Imagine every character who does not have discipline meeting someone with KD that spams it and being in the exact same boat. What are they told to do? Get discipline. Get a friend. Or do what happens when you cannot fight someone: Run away.

In this case, get strength. Get a friend. Find one of the other ways to counter it. Run away and do not fight that particular foe.
Make a wizard or rogue with 38 strength that cannot be dispelled and say it's as easy or as practical as "just get discipline". Post your build here too or maybe even better yet post it in builds & mechanics to open everyone's eyes to how silly we are for believing that balagarns is problematic.
Griefmaker wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:27 pm
Start adding CDs to one thing, might as well start adding CDs to KD, then heck, why stop there? CDs to sneak attacks, crits (one per round only...sorry WM and 10-20 crit guys!). But that is not enough! Let's add CDs to IGMS storms, because a few of those cast one after another can kill someone who is not prepared too.
Slippery slope fallacy, not worth addressing.
Griefmaker wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:27 pm
This entire topic is simply sour grapes and I am thankful the devs will realize it too and ignore it.
Imagine presuming bad faith on other people's ends to try to shutdown a discussion that I believe it's fair to say that you don't actually understand. And then you scream that you're right, plug your ears and say at least the devs, according to your belief, will simply ignore feedback because you personally disagree with it. If I wanted to play this game too I might be inclined to ask if you play a warlock.

Most builds can get high saves. Literally any build can get discipline at very little cost. I don't think very many builds can item their way up to not instantly dying to a balagarn's spamming warlock. Every single other example you listed is something that you can actively counterplay. The only option against balagarn's is you better be playing a strength character otherwise you've automatically lost in essence.

Of course this is all only referring to warlocks who can infinitely cast quickened balagarns as much as they want.
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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Ork » Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:38 am

Naiinara wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:36 am
Ork wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:25 am
Read the thread if you're asking yourself why balagarn's is different than save spells.
I did. What you're attempting is semantics. Is it different? Yes, it's a strength check of DC 20 whereas fear is a will save. But there are plenty of spells that allow no saves versus effects, and we all learn to counter those. My point was people should learn to counter this.
It's not a DC 20 strength check. Thankfully the spell mechanics are discussed in this thread and you can find them when you read it.

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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Naiinara » Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:48 am

Yes, it's an opposing strength check. Both sides roll strength, the higher wins. Iron horn has strength of 20. I had 5e in my head for a moment while I was writing. Anyway my point still stands. All I see here is semantics.

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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by RobertSolved » Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:28 pm

Instead of suggesting a cooldown for the spell for warlocks how about:
  • The target makes the opposed check either a Strength or Dexterity check (like the spell seems to be in Magic of Faerun). This could make it underpowered (But then again, it's a level --1-- spell).
  • Make the check an actual Ability check (instead of Ability Score (20) it would be the Ability Modifier (+5)). This would lessen the difference in power between slight differences in ability scores. A character with Str 20 would still have 50% but a character with Str 16 would have 40% of success instead of only 30 % (A Str of 39 wouldn't assure succes anymore though).
  • Both of the above.

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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Sockss » Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:56 pm

Naiinara wrote: I'm struggling to see the difference between using iron horn after iron horn and another caster just spamming say fear until the target fails a will save.
Saves scale for everyone, abilities does not.
Saves have a +20 soft cap.
Ability scores have a 12 soft cap.
Saves have easily available hard bonus feats to plug gaps, saves are more easily geared for.

This is why using abilities isn't a great target for spells, because they cause a very binary interaction and it's not fun being on the opposing end of that.

Pushing further towards RPS mechanics is terrible, things shouldn't have a too severe a disadvantage against others otherwise there becomes little point.

This is why, as you mentioned, bigby was given an additional reflex save and expanded immunities, despite it being weaker than iron horn. (And because you can't pray out of prone, which leads to exasperation of the initiation meta, see below)

Moving on, there are some niche counters, as you have reiterated needlessly.

This assumes that these counters are running, applied and have no down time and that the warlock himself can't do a thing about it, or that during the period warlocks won't do anything else. Even using the counter takes a round which puts you /way/ behind and you absolutely have to use it, as there's no pray net for people. If you're not initiating combat first, you're in trouble. These sort of meta-mechanics on initiation do not lend themselves to an RP environment.

The major point here, at least mine, is that the archetypes that are vulnerable to IH are also vulnerable to a warlock who doesn't use IH. IH is not needed. It makes them a very hard counter, and pushes into the RPS mechanics which are not fun.

FWIW infinite casting for /any/ save vs effective death spells (whether they target abilities or not) is bad. It's lazy and unfun. Feylock is marginally better simply because the counters to their particular brand of uninteresting spam are much more accessible and have a lower chance of working. This doesn't make them okay.
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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by a1b2 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:22 pm

Griefmaker wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:27 pm

Imagine every character who does not have discipline meeting someone with KD that spams it and being in the exact same boat. What are they told to do? Get discipline. Get a friend. Or do what happens when you cannot fight someone: Run away.

In this case, get strength. Get a friend. Find one of the other ways to counter it. Run away and do not fight that particular foe.

Warlocks are apparently strong against one particular subset of characters...kind of like someone with KD and high AB is against low discipline characters. Or any caster against low save characters. Fortunately, they do have overt weakness too as I can tear them apart on either a wizard or a cleric with ease, so the rock-paper-scissors strength-weakness factor is there. Probably more classes that can kill them easily too, but I do not care enough to find out.

Start adding CDs to one thing, might as well start adding CDs to KD, then heck, why stop there? CDs to sneak attacks, crits (one per round only...sorry WM and 10-20 crit guys!). But that is not enough! Let's add CDs to IGMS storms, because a few of those cast one after another can kill someone who is not prepared too.

This entire topic is simply sour grapes and I am thankful the devs will realize it too and ignore it.
Amen!

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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Aniel » Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:43 pm

This cannot be a real thread.
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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Aodh Lazuli » Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:43 am

Aniel wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:43 pm
This cannot be a real thread.
The sad fact is that it is very real. People are willing, seemingly, to take an orbital dump on the intentions of another player, basing their entire argument around a severe misunderstandings of the game's mechanics... in addition, they're happy to misuse words in an attempt to suggest that counterpoints being made to incorrect assertions (or indications to previously made counterpoints) are somehow petty.

And all this around something that was suggested from a point of knowledge, with reasoned arguments and without any apparent self interest.

Why people feel the need to be rude, wrong, dismissive and stupid and then double down on all four when challenged, I will never know. But here we are...

I would say "congratulations arelith", in some attempt at sarcastically suggesting the community was on a downward slide into the internet abyss, but honestly, the problem here isn't the community at large (who are bloody adorable for the most part), but very specifically certain people in this thread.

Hm.
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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Ork » Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:20 am

But, what's the big deal. Just cast ghostly visage.

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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by MissEvelyn » Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:25 am

Warlocks are already awful at PvP. I also disagree with this suggestion.

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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Shadowy Reality » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:37 am

That Ability scores aren't as easily increased as saves is a terrible argument.

Because the reality is that saves on optimal characters are so bloated on arelith that it is pretty much impossible to use regular DC spells.

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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Tarkus the dog » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:55 am

MissEvelyn wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:25 am
Warlocks are already awful at PvP. I also disagree with this suggestion.
Warlocks are far from awful at PvP. Feylocks are sleepers that can still clear entire parties if played properly, and fiendlocks are in a pretty good standing themselves. A class with decent kill pressure ( depending on the summon for the most part ), area control and pretty good survivablility for a caster is really, really far from awful. However, I am not trying to argue their overall ability at PvP ( which is, again, pretty decent when put in right hands ) or PvE for that matter. My sights are on a single spell. This is like saying "Smiters are weak, they can only hurt evil characters with yet another "I win button", so it's fair and entirely seemly that they can't do anything to good and neutral ones". Except warlocks do just as fine against other classes, with a "I win" function on top. They no longer have a real counter anymore ( which I'm actually fine with ). I'm simply no longer sure who would win if the WM and a warlock + summon were to fight it out.

Do you want to say why do you think they are awful at PvP?
Because the reality is that saves on optimal characters are so bloated on arelith that it is pretty much impossible to use regular DC spells.
Even when characters cripple their builds in order to have extra saves on their sheets, you still have the right tools to beat them to a pulp. That is the beauty of mages. And that is why they are the strongest class in the game when it comes to duels ( after monk get their nerfs ).

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