Quarter doors: A brief feedback.

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Durvayas
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Re: Quarter doors: A brief feedback.

Post by Durvayas » Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:47 pm

xanrael wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:04 pm
Cortex wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:13 pm
Reasonable arguement
If the faction can't deal with lone squatters and huddle in their rooms I'd call into question them owning the guild house in the first place. There should be more to a faction than simple guild house ownership.

Regardless I imagine the behavior of not engaging in interactions with that squatter and hiding in their rooms is going to have a RP and morale cost to the faction members that RPing in their nearly impregnable base does not. I'm sure they did complain, but I'm not sure losing the ability to segregate their factional RP from the rest of the server thanks to a door is that strong of a complaint. Anyone that doesn't have one of these places has to deal with possible disruptions after all.

I'm not saying its perfect, but you could have a slight tweak/clarification of the rules that if there is an engagement and someone dies, regardless of the winner the owners are allowed to enter and leave while those that do not have to stay away for 24 hours unless the rule is waived by both sides.

Ah yes. Except this arguement doesn't work if we're really trying to tell people that levels don't matter for RP on the server, which has always been a dichotemy Arelith has strived for.

Beyond which, what narrative value would allowing this to be a thing actually accomplish? None. Convincing someone on the inside to be a trojan horse, turning on the defenders to let an army in for a battle is one thing, camping the base and killing people as they log in is entirely something else and has no narrative value whatsoever.

If one level 30 can camp in the lobby of a faction's building and everyone in that faction is signifigantly lower level, they can't use their faction's building at all, it cripples that faction's capability to do anything because the rules will prevent them from re-entering the area post-PvP if that PC won't leave. And even if the rules were changed to allow this scenario, its still textbook griefing if you're sitting inside their very base waiting for them to log on so you can kill them repeatedly. At the very LEAST if flies in the face of the be-nice rules.
Its not exactly against the rules to besiege a guildhouse, its been done before, but if your idea of fun conflict is parking an army(or even a single lvl 30, if the defenders aren't all 30s themselves) inside a hallway and ganking people as they log in and appear in the kitchen, bedrooms, and storage rooms with one or two lines of RP, you probably haven't taken a nasal breath in your life and I wholeheartedly support steps taken to curtail your behavior or remove you from the server outright.

Simply put, this should not be a possibility, period, because Arelith's players have shown time and time and time and time again that they cannot be allowed a vagueness in the rules because they WILL exploit those rules for cheese.

Thief RP is near nonexistant, and always has been. Quarter locks are as high as they are because the server has shown that people WILL abuse the mechanic until owning the building storage is pointless, and 90+% of the time there will be zero RP for the theft. Its simply not worth allowing for the 5% of people who will do thief RP it to the enjoyment of both sides when the other 95% of thieves and gankers are going to abuse it.

Disclaimer: I'm not targeting 'you' so much as using the broad, royal 'you' as in the reader.
Plays: Durvayas(deleted), Marco(deleted), Hounynrae(NPC), Sinithra Auvry'ndal(rolled), Rauvlin Barrith(Active), Madeline Clavelle(Shelved)

magistrasa
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Re: Quarter doors: A brief feedback.

Post by magistrasa » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:22 pm

Not sure it's contributing for the conversation to assume rulebreakers are just going to go on griefing without reproach. I mean... They'll be punished if they camp faction bases long enough. Are we just assuming the rules won't be enforced? Are we assuming there's enough bad actors to be able to just replace one another as quickly as the DMs are banning them? This is a silly hypothetical.

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Durvayas
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Re: Quarter doors: A brief feedback.

Post by Durvayas » Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:40 pm

magistrasa wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:22 pm
Not sure it's contributing for the conversation to assume rulebreakers are just going to go on griefing without reproach. I mean... They'll be punished if they camp faction bases long enough. Are we just assuming the rules won't be enforced? Are we assuming there's enough bad actors to be able to just replace one another as quickly as the DMs are banning them? This is a silly hypothetical.
Without reproach? No. But the DM team has also never been particularly swift in dealing with this sort of thing, often not before signifigant morale damage has been done and people start shelving or quitting as a result. I simply don't see any value in facilitating it getting to that point in the first place. And if someone can penetrate into the lobby, or worse, interior hallways, of a guildhouse, you can be sure that at some point people are going to be getting killed as soon as they log in, as the conflict meta will almost certainly shift slightly because you can now use abjurers in a hostile faction's guildhouse to force the gank of their people one by one as they appear by warding teleport unless they coordinate their timing with discord, which is not something we should be encouraging further.

Narratively, I don't see what value could possibly be gleaned from allowing guildhouse camping that isn't already amply served by the rule allowing door sneaking.

From a design standpoint, I don't see how allowing it would be beneficial when these guildhouses already cost signifigantly more than mundane quarters to begin with, lowering security to the exterior door of guildhouses would effectively be a wealth tax on the faction owning the building, forcing all interior doors to need much better security, a spider's web of key access(which sounds like the opposite of fun, with keyless entry still awful), and almost certainly a redesign of a not insignifigant number of the existant guildhouses to accomadate the rules change and prevent it being very heavily abused.

Additionally...

Guildhouses with guards are already kind of a joke, because those guards are far too low a level to repel even a single combatant of mediocre level. They are effectively customizable furniture. These guards would need a buff to be less for show.
Plays: Durvayas(deleted), Marco(deleted), Hounynrae(NPC), Sinithra Auvry'ndal(rolled), Rauvlin Barrith(Active), Madeline Clavelle(Shelved)

Might-N-Magic
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Re: Quarter doors: A brief feedback.

Post by Might-N-Magic » Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:52 am

If you want to, you can make a burglar capable of burgling anything even with maxed numbers.

Is it easy? Nope. Should it be? Nope.

The only thing that should be talked about here is how every burglar most likely metagames the fact that the person who's name on the quarter isn't online on the playerlist so there's no chance they'd get caught.

Remove names from the quarters. There's no reason for them to be there.

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Re: Quarter doors: A brief feedback.

Post by Nevrus » Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:28 am

I think this problem is solvable in a way that can actually generate RP.

First, put alarms on the door. How can doors have alarms? Alarm is a first level spell. Make it shout to the area that a door's lock has been picked. This gives the would-be burglar a brief time to do the deed and maximizes the chances that a guard will come by and interrogate nearby NPCs, or fetch a ranger to look at traps.

Second, reduce the DC when the owner is online, and ONLY when they're online.

Third, have the Alarm alert the owner at the time of the break-in that their property has been broken into, or immediately upon log-in, like a faction message.

Fourth, and this is the key one, mandate that only one house can be broken into per IRL week, and institute a 30 day cooldown on breaking into the same house, to reduce the 'daily robbing spree.'

Fifth, mandate some evidence can be left behind which can be found with a high DC search check, and that can pinpoint who exactly broke in.

This altogether reduces the meta-game and get-out-of-jail-free nature of the current system where if you can break a lock it's all yours every day.

Now, there's one more facet that's necessary to prevent people from constantly having their most valuable things taken:

Make it so that if you've broken the lock on the house, when you loot their chest you get one of the items inside AT RANDOM.

It needs to be a high-risk, unpredictable reward affair to ensure that it's useful as an RP tool but not useful as a standalone profession. If you're playing a burglar it should be about the thrill of the infiltration and trying to get away with it, not about the material benefits- just like playing an assassin is about the thrill of the hunt and trying to deflect suspicion, rather than just winning pvp gud.

This wouldn't be a change that would make everyone happy but it will give guards something to do (patrol in case of break-ins, investigate break-ins), give would-be burglars something to do, and enable thieves-guild style RP because there's thieving you can do other than picking pockets.

I'm willing to risk my stuff getting stolen if it means I get to chase down and gut the one what did the stealin'.
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Re: Quarter doors: A brief feedback.

Post by Reallylongunneededplayername » Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:26 pm

Aodh Lazuli wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:55 pm
Reallylongunneededplayername wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:08 pm
Aodh Lazuli wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:19 am



Hi, what about characters that for one reason or another take no settlement citizenship?
As one that has a quarter but no settlement; If it ain't a resource, If it's heavy, If I can not pawn it, I don't want it.

But that is how I deal with it.
So you are asking for a change that has no negative repercussions for your own character, but does for others who exhibit different choices and engage with the game in a different manner to yourself? And your response to questions about it is to suggest people behave more like you do?

Hmm.

Where did I put that thinking emoji...
No, I anwsered a question with a personal solution.
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Aodh Lazuli
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Re: Quarter doors: A brief feedback.

Post by Aodh Lazuli » Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:43 pm

Reallylongunneededplayername wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:26 pm
No, I anwsered a question with a personal solution.
Yes, and therein lies the problem. This thread fails to acknowledge a broader array of playstyles than your own, and requests a change that suits your particular way of playing the game.
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Re: Quarter doors: A brief feedback.

Post by Zavandar » Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:08 pm

I have never seen thief rp done well

the system is fine as-is
Currently plays Rick Snyder.

Formerly played Peregrine Gwil, Mel Aran, Antoine Moreau, and Zanril.

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