Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by Cortex » Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:26 pm

Heal potions are a necessity to allow recovery against burst characters, it's dirty and not ideal, but it's better than any other alternative brought up thus far.

Personally, I've never been in a fight where heal potions mattered any, I was told of tricky PvP where it played a role (mainly against multiple mages focusing down one person), but those situations tend to be very select. In most PvP Arelith sees, healing potions will play a very minor role in the result of "skilled" PvP, not a single example in this thread demonstrated a situation where heal potion made a crippling difference where G.Resto/-pray/sitting in IE spamming heal kits or really just playing better wouldn't've sufficed.

On the topic of gold sink to win a PvP, heal potion is but one thing in the vast array of consumbles to take into account. Scrolls (mords, time stop, etc), potions (death ward, FoM, skleen, true strike, etc), wand charges (haste, bark, etc) and misc loot items that mimic UMD.

On the topic of healing being nerfed over time, in more or less chronological order:
-Heal/Mass Heal were nerfed eons ago because clerics were busted as hell, and the spells had no cap (even though in most other iterations of DnD they are 10/level, Arelith adapted to that and added a limit to Heal)
•G. Resto is a full heal AND restoration effect, giving it a cooldown keeps its impact without making it a spammable.
•Removing heal from basin remains a pointless, silly change and should be reverted some day, the multiple craftables that boost healing were at most a poor bandaid fix to a problem created by the developers themselves.
•-pray had the G. Resto effect, except instantly and without an actual cast, and was too great of a jail free card.
•Some extra: While not a main reason, builds that got 600+ HP benefitted from full heals assymmetrically from squishier builds, warlocks and CON heavy meleers were far stronger then than they are today.

on adding rng to potion: dont do it its bad
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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by CosmicOrderV » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:37 pm

TimeAdept wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:05 pm
Irongron wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:13 pm
I'd quite like if there was simply a chance of dropping a potion when trying to drink one during combat.
We play literal superheroes and villains, this sort of "critical fail" doesn't make for good narrative or game-play.
Not really. If everyone is a superhero, then really none of them is all that 'super'. The appeal behind playing someone 'better than normal' is a bit immature and inane to begin with. The immersion (and therefore game-play and narrative) of the world is best served by a normalized standard that mimics a sense of reality. This is why we have character that have to eat, rest, and drink. This concept is a staple of the fantasy genre. Swords, metal, and medieval warfare are something pretty well understood and documented. It's easy to measure. To replicate. As opposed to science fiction, let's say, in which there's a lot more adlibing going on when it comes to world-building, because it's science that doesn't actually exist yet. That makes it harder to relate to. Magic? We can then mix old understandings of science and religion, match it with similar present day science, and now you've got a kick Snuggybear world that while painted in the colors of the past, can easily relate to us players in our present age. From there all it takes is some creative story tellers.

This all said, when it comes to healing potions... maybe all potions... and perhaps healing in general, I'm of the persuasion some limitation would serve to improve game-play. In real life, it's typically easier to destroy then it is to build. In my own experiences, as well, definitive battles are usually more enjoyable than those that drag on or have inconclusive outcomes.

Less healing from resting? Some meter/cooldown on potions, or potion sickness? Reduced Heal skill totals? These all sound good to me.
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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by magistrasa » Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:28 am

I'm all for a potion sickness / toxicity mechanic. Maybe nix sobriety and wrap all these concepts neatly together. Even a debuff when you get into the negatives, though I can't say where the penalty ought to fall. I think it'd bring a new and interesting dynamic into combat, both PvE and PvP.

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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by Hazard » Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:36 am

magistrasa wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:28 am
I'm all for a potion sickness / toxicity mechanic. Maybe nix sobriety and wrap all these concepts neatly together. Even a debuff when you get into the negatives, though I can't say where the penalty ought to fall. I think it'd bring a new and interesting dynamic into combat, both PvE and PvP.
We could explain it as a component used in potion brewing is actually slightly toxic, so drinking too much of it gives you the yucks.

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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by Vrass » Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:03 am

Who uses potions... they are inferior to healing kits in every way. Healing kits heal more, they heal faster, and they heal without provoking attacks of opportunity.

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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:51 am

Just remember a nerf to potion drinkers across the board is a nerf to non umd users whom are already lower on the totem pole.

Money can always bring a major advantage. Timestop plus rebuffing/debuffing. Heal scrolls instead of potions (heal wand if really rich.) Etc

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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by TimeAdept » Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:15 am

Not really. If everyone is a superhero, then really none of them is all that 'super'.
that's not really how this works. if you have 36 CON you're super. it doesn't matter that 10 other PCs also do. the 10 thousand NPCs don't.

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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by Nitro » Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:14 am

Vrass wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:03 am
Who uses potions... they are inferior to healing kits in every way. Healing kits heal more, they heal faster, and they heal without provoking attacks of opportunity.
The AOO point is true, but please point me to a build that can heal 100 with each kit since the removal of enchanting heal on gear.

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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by Sockss » Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:13 pm

If you're resorting to heal potions in PvP, you're on the back foot and you're probably going to lose anyway - or you're punishing a mage for nuking poorly.

The entire action presupposes you being in a bad situation. It is not a desirable action. It is not going to make you win. Mostly it will make you lose a bit slower.

Of course every scenario is different, but really, if you're beating people 1v2+ then that's nearly always because the people you're fighting have messed up, or that you've been extremely lucky with rolls. Not because of heal potions (or even your own perceived skill!)

The problem with toxicity, or dropping, is that a considerable number of classes are very potion reliant (See everything that can't cast) and these classes (in general) aren't overpowered. So you're essentially just putting a huge nerf across the majority of classes for no reason at all.

TLDR; You could remove heal potions entirely and the meta wouldn't change much, you'd just be making nuke-mages better. Toxicity/dropping would be silly.
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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by Kuma » Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:48 pm

Irongron wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:13 pm
I'd quite like if there was simply a chance of dropping a potion when trying to drink one during combat.
they already trigger attacks of opportunity my dude this is weird

also, we're atomic supermen. and heal kit spam exists. this would just be an indirect buff to IGMS

also a potion sickness system would absolutely cripple every non-UMD/mage if you applied it to non-healing pots too
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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by Vrass » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:23 pm

Give me +10 healing kits and let me boost my already high heal skill even further using wis boosting spells and i can often get close to 75 and i'm a multiclass. A pure cleric or healer would have a far higher heal score and could probably reach 100+ quite easily.

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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by Beard Master Flex » Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:48 pm

Since Heal Potions were nerfed to 100hp I would never even think to waste an action to be flatfooted for 100hp...

If you're suffering less then 100hp in damage a round there are more valuable things you can be doing with that time... and if you're taking more then 100hp damage a round there is DEFINETLY something more valuable you can be doing with your (even less) time.

If Heal Potions were vanilla then there'd be something worth discussing, but they've already been changed and put into a pretty comfortable position.

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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by xanrael » Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:18 am

As a note while drinking a healing potion does provoke, you are not flat-footed. Using a Healing Kit doesn't provoke but you are flat-footed.

Simple test on the Arelith PGCC for any in doubt, spawn a rogue in the arena and you'll eat sneak attacks while queuing up kits but not take any if you queue up some healing potions though you'll obviously take more attacks.

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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by Cortex » Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:41 am

Sure, if you're up against a vharacter with very specific class investment, healing kits might not be as useful. On the topic of specific builds, some others won't mind that terribly much as they can get enough AC to tank rogues while healing. Not that your last post or this change anything in the thread.
Irongron wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:41 pm
Yes, you were. Thankfully this team is no longer being used.[...] A system, that in this case clearly failed.
nevermind barbarian, ranger, paladin, craftables, loot, races, new monsters, etc.

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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by RedGiant » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:04 am

Are we ready to talk about healing potions.

"No."

They are fine. Already nerfed. Require appropriate investment to acquire and stock. Necessary counterplay. Next?
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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by xanrael » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:08 am

Cortex wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:41 am
Sure, if you're up against a vharacter with very specific class investment, healing kits might not be as useful. On the topic of specific builds, some others won't mind that terribly much as they can get enough AC to tank rogues while healing. Not that your last post or this change anything in the thread.
I wasn't adding this information with an agenda past I think that for discussions on the strength of this or that its good there are not any misunderstandings of the mechanics as there seemed to be by 1 or 2 posters. I think everyone is better off having all the information than not.

But if you want to bring up the implications, I actually think it's more important to consider the build/buffs deciding whether potions are more useful than kits for them. Even with uncanny dodge you lose dodge bonuses from flat-footed so AC from divine shield, bard song, haste, etc goes away which for quite a few builds is a sizable portion of their AC. Then there are other builds that are better off using kits.

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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by CosmicOrderV » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:47 pm

Lots of folks seem to suggest heal pot's as necessary counterplay. Super valid.

Doesnt it seem a bit much to be able to down several in a row though?

Doesnt the amount of healing kits and resting do, make little to no sense?

I feel like these conversations tend to get a bit hyperbolic. Heal potions dont need to be nerfed into the ground, but maybe being able to chug 5 in a short period of time, shouldnt be a thing? As well, doesnt just standing still and bandaging one's self while being stabbed, seem a lil absurd? Same with sleeping and suddenly feeling at 100%?

These things dont need a heavy hand, but maybe just some fine tuning? It's all a balancing act.

Potions being stronger than kits would be Cool, maybe even if only while in combat. Countered by some sort of timer or sickness on potions. Half Heal skill in combat? Lesser potions getting a scaling buff? I dont know. My experience with healing potions typically comes in the form of being a sneak attacker and having most of your damage undone, and being forced to run with little recourse because every other build out there can instantly nuke you if the opening 1-3 rounds don't do the trick. Really isnt fun to put in all that effort of positioning just to have it mean nothing.
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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:10 am

33 Heal + 2 wisdom + 10 from items +20(roll) +1 kit = 66 HP for 22 gold. This makes healing kits worth 3 HP per gold piece spent.

Heal potions heal for 100, for 1500+ gold per pot. This makes them worth 1.5 HP per gold piece spent.

Mathematically in terms of cost per point of HP, healing potions are inferior (by 50%, mind you) to healing kits, so I don't think they need any further nerfing.

Although this is predicated on end-game play, this remains true on a parabolic scale all the way down to level two (where you are throwing away thousands of gold to heal yourself for 8-24 HP when a 22 gold healing kit would do and therefore losing more efficiency).
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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by Might-N-Magic » Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:45 am

Cerk Evermoore wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:00 am
Okay here is my heal potion story. 5 People show up fully buffed to try and kill me. So I summoned edk and sat in a hallway face tanking them drinking potions meanwhile my edk killed them all and because of the nature of the hallway they could not properly focus their combined dps to out damage the potion.


Healing potions allow people to not die in a fight. Which in turn allows them to tank more dps or possibly survive longer, which definately depending on a player can make / break a fight.
The only thing your little ditty showed was that your EDK was overpowered, not the piddly 150ish hp from the potions... If your summons is bloody tanking five buffed dudes, your post should be titled, "It's time to nerf EDK and here's why..."

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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by Cerk Evermoore » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:48 am

You wern't listening, they were attacking me not my dragon.

I guess I'll add some arguments of my own to this matter. Currently in this meta we have unkillable monks / pale masters / arguably druids running around already.
Sure IGMS spam sucks, but at least counter play towards that exists in the form of shield with gsf abj, or even running around a corner and breaking line of sight.

It also seems the best players are most likely to be the ones busting out healing potions to prolong their own lives indefinitely. Probably why we have most of the mechanical experts in this thread talking about how much they love them, because they're amazing!
I also like the shift between /healing potions are useless and don't do anything to help the fight./ Towards, /Healing potions out heal the highest dps casters and that's an essential counter!/ Is confusing me. Are healing potions useless and don't change fights? Or are they saving people from massive amounts of damage being unloaded on them in a short period of time? Which btw, I am no scientist but that definitely sounds like changing the direction of a fight to me.

In my time playing I have seen healing potions used in a few ways.

Fighting a group of people, their last remaining member casts haste and stutter step drinks healing potions for 5 minutes while no melee can reliably catch and hold them down, they run all the way to the zone transition, picking up all their friends bodies along the way before transitioning away from the -ward teleport command using a lens on the other side.

A high skill player playing let's say a weapon master engages a group, runs in. Picks a few people off, runs away using health potions to escape before returning to pick off more people. Due to the high AC of a best in slot weapon master your group will need some sufficiently high DPS to stop this guy from max healing and continuing to kill your group.

With healing potions, a high skill player can kill a whole lot more less skilled players then he could have otherwise. Do we really need more fights where 3 people kill 12? Is that healthy for the server design? Do we really need more unkillable people who no matter how you seem to gank them or focus them down in a team fight they still always manage to escape?

In fact, it is a pretty common strategy to just run away from groups of people while drinking health potions indefinitely until you can reach a transition so you can lens. People including myself would happily drop 100k gold to avoid dying. I'd even happily pay 500k gold to avoid dying. That's the kind of weight people are supposed to give death on this server. The best of players probably carry 20 healing potions on their characters at least that they are willing to drink for a chance at success in a fight.

I also like how it is suggested to counter burst casters. Yeah, you can not just counter them but out heal their entire spellbook before murdering them, that's without even mentioning the -pray and G.resto that is still available in your toolbox to counter crowd control when those burst casters realize they can't kill you with damage and try to cast a CC hail marry. I am not saying by any means that burst casters are shitty, but they definitely don't have many options to deal with some guy who is camping a corner spamming healing potions.

Also it makes taking the heal skill kinda useless in end game pvp because drinking a health potion allows you to save your skill points for different abilities because the health potions out perform them by such a large margin. The argument of cost is a terrible argument considering the amount of gold people have on this server already to pay out 700k+ gold for a single runic supply piece.

Anyways my point is health potions heal too much. As evidence by the fact people are talking about using them to outheal burst casters.

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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:46 pm

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:10 am
33 Heal + 2 wisdom + 10 from items +20(roll) +1 kit = 66 HP for 22 gold. This makes healing kits worth 3 HP per gold piece spent.

Heal potions heal for 100, for 1500+ gold per pot. This makes them worth 1.5 HP per gold piece spent.

Mathematically in terms of cost per point of HP, healing potions are inferior (by 50%, mind you) to healing kits, so I don't think they need any further nerfing.

Although this is predicated on end-game play, this remains true on a parabolic scale all the way down to level two (where you are throwing away thousands of gold to heal yourself for 8-24 HP when a 22 gold healing kit would do and therefore losing more efficiency).
I'm not sure what I was on when I did the crossed out math (probably an excessive dose of sleep deprivation) but after a full night's sleep, this actually makes them worth 1 HP per 15 gold spent, generously. That's forty-five times less efficient than a healing kit.

3 HP/ 1 GP Heal Kit > 1 HP / 15 GP Heal Pot (This breaks down to .067 HP per gold piece spent).

They definitely don't need a nerf.
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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by Hazard » Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:25 pm

What if a cooldown is added but healing from the potion is buffed slightly? More worth using, but less spammable and would reward using it at the right time, versus just spamming mindlessly.

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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by Nitro » Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:30 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:46 pm
Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:10 am
33 Heal + 2 wisdom + 10 from items +20(roll) +1 kit = 66 HP for 22 gold. This makes healing kits worth 3 HP per gold piece spent.

Heal potions heal for 100, for 1500+ gold per pot. This makes them worth 1.5 HP per gold piece spent.

Mathematically in terms of cost per point of HP, healing potions are inferior (by 50%, mind you) to healing kits, so I don't think they need any further nerfing.

Although this is predicated on end-game play, this remains true on a parabolic scale all the way down to level two (where you are throwing away thousands of gold to heal yourself for 8-24 HP when a 22 gold healing kit would do and therefore losing more efficiency).
I'm not sure what I was on when I did the crossed out math (probably an excessive dose of sleep deprivation) but after a full night's sleep, this actually makes them worth 1 HP per 15 gold spent, generously. That's forty-five times less efficient than a healing kit.

3 HP/ 1 GP Heal Kit > 1 HP / 15 GP Heal Pot (This breaks down to .067 HP per gold piece spent).

They definitely don't need a nerf.
Keep in mind that gold efficiency doesn't mean anything when people can and do regularly acquire several millions worth of gold. It just means that those with the time and means will have a larger advantage because they can disregard gold efficiency. Also your calculation is a little off since you're not guaranteed a 20 roll on a kit in combat (which the discussion is about, chugging potions in combat).

That said, I don't think healing potions are a problem either. If you're a melee and someone starts chain-drinking you have ample time to down your own TS potion and Knock their Snuggybear down, or just KD them anyway without it because they're flatfooted. If you're a caster it gives you time to set up any number of spells, WoF/Dismissal on their summons, some short duration buffs you couldn't get up before the fight started, blanketing the area they're in with AOE CC, breaching/dispelling their buffs etc.

If you're just standing still hitting someone chugging healing potions it's not the potions that are a problem in this equation, but you.

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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by Shadowy Reality » Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:52 pm

As mentioned above. You are not flatfooted while drinking a potion, even though you get an AOO.
You are flatfooted while using healing kits.

They aren't really comparable.

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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:07 pm

Just because you have umpteen millions of gold, doesn't mean that gold piece cost is irrelevant. You, in fact, went out and invested the time to gather millions of gold because gold piece acquisition determines your ability to buy things you need/want, and you determine which of those things you want by what it is they achieve.

The logic that gold piece cost doesn't matter because you have millions is fundamentally flawed, in the same way a bunch of business owners saying canned food should now cost hundreds of dollars per can to help the economy due to increased spending is - gold may no longer have any actual value to you, but it's still the unit of value everything in the game world is measured against, and you can't overlook people for whom scarcity is still a thing, unless you're farming hundreds of millions of gold and giving every single player 10 million gold to cap out their bank account.

Even XP breaks down into a gold piece cost chart, where when you start at higher levels in the game than level 1 you have the option at your DM's behest to exchange some of your starting gold for extra XP (at the standard rate of 5 GP per 1 XP).

You aren't flat-footed while drinking a potion, but you get AoO's. You ARE flat-footed while using a kit, but don't get an AoO. This is give and take. You don't auto-roll a 20 in combat, but you get an auto-20 roll for disengaging from combat before using a heal kit. Functionally, the primary difference in this discussion is how much gold you paid per HP. They are absolutely comparable - gold = time, the more time you invest in something the more valuable it is. Potions are 45 times more valuable (in a vacuum) than kits.

If you wanted to argue against the gold-piece-value determination of whether or not they're overpowered, the one difference I would focus on with you is how much HP you can heal per use. A healing potion is capable, reliably, of giving more HP per pot than a healing kit - for an increased cost factor of 45 times more gold, which I argue makes it balanced.

^^^^^^ <---- While I disagree with your assertion that gold piece value doesn't factor into balance, this last part means we come to the same conclusion- healing potions aren't a problem.
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