Enchanted Shield, LOL

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the grim yeeter
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Enchanted Shield, LOL

Post by the grim yeeter » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:05 pm

After having heard several dozens of people complaining about how absurd some of those carpentry recipes are, I decided to have a look at the list of required materials for the Enchanted Shield myself:

Code: Select all

 - 2x ashwood stabiliser.
    - 4x charcoal (byproduct of pine tar)
    - 2x chunks addy 
    - 2x natural gums 
        - 8x Nuts 
        - 10x Glass Vial
        - 4x Hardwood 
        - 4x Softwood 
        - 8x Malyss Root 
    - 2x pine tar 
        - 4x glass bottle 
        - 8x hardwood 
        - 2x alchemist's fire 

 - 1x dragon oil 
    - 1x dragonhide 
    - 5x flask of oil 
    - 1x dragon blood 

 - 2x hardening finish 
    - 2x Arjale chunk 
    - 2x Mithril chunk 
    - 2x natural gums 
        - 8x Nuts 
        - 10x Glass Vial 
        - 4x Hardwood 
        - 4x Softwood 
        - 8x Malyss Root 
    - 2x pine tar 
        - 4x glass bottle 
        - 8x hardwood 
        - 2x alchemist's fire 
	- 2x Hardwood Resin 
		-10x glass vial 
		-8x hardwood 

 - 1x Hardened shield 
     - 1x Emulsified oil 
        - 4x Harnak Seeds 
        - 2x Charcoal (byproduct of pine tar)
        - 1x Iron chunk 
        - 1x Small seed balm 
            - 3x Strideleaf 
            - 6x Nuts 
            - 3x Sassone Leaves 
            - 6x Yarrow Leaves 

     - 1x hardening finish 
        - 1x Arjale chunk 
        - 1x Mithril chunk 
        - 1x natural gums 
           - 4x Nuts
           - 5x Glass Vial 
           - 2x Hardwood 
           - 2x Softwood 
           - 4x Malyss Root 
        - 1x pine tar 
           - 2x glass bottle
           - 4x hardwood 
           - 1x alchemist's fire 
	- 1x Hardwood Resin 
  
     - 1x Sturdy Wood Shield 
       - 1x Emulsified oil 
         - 4x Harnak Seeds 
         - 2x Charcoal (byproduct of pine tar)
         - 1x Iron chunk 
         - 1x Small seed balm 
            - 3x Strideleaf 
            - 6x Nuts 
            - 3x Sassone Leaves 
            - 6x Yarrow Leaves 
       - 1x leather (large) 
          - 1x tanning acid 
            - 1x glass vial 
            - 1x Salt 
            - 2x Fruit 
          - 1x animal hide (large) 
       - 1x Large Shield (wood) 
          - 2x hardwood
and holy moly, LOL. Who ever thought this was a good idea? No wonder literally nobody enjoys making this. I strongly suggest this recipe (and probably some others too) to be made simpler and less of a pain to make. There's a difference between "challenging but fun" and "outright annoying and unenjoyable". This recipe is absolutely the latter, especially considering the fact it has so many layers where rolling a 1 will force you to start it all over again.

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Rigela
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Re: Enchanted Shield, LOL

Post by Rigela » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:13 pm

Lots of the top end carpentry stuff is on a similar level of horror to make and really makes it a tiring process to make those things for people, when they need it. Many requiring you to make each previous step, with a steadily growing pain of things to make each time.

Just makes it an arduous, overly time consuming process.
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Nitro
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Re: Enchanted Shield, LOL

Post by Nitro » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:19 pm

I recently made one, and I can say with certainty that I will never again be making any character that has that shield as their best in slot item. I don't even want to think about making another of those shields while they have this recipe.

Lunargent
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Re: Enchanted Shield, LOL

Post by Lunargent » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:29 pm

Gotta agree here. I don't mind so much that there are a few expensive/high end components to this, even craftable ones. My beef with it is that those components often require components that are, themselves, crafted. That is insane, in my opinion. It's not necessarily difficult to make, it is simply frustrating. If you have to sit there doing math about what parts you require, it should be tossed out and made simpler.

To summarize:

An expensive recipe with high-end crafted components: OK
Matryoshka doll recipe with several layers of crafted components: Not OK

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Re: Enchanted Shield, LOL

Post by R0GUE » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:54 pm

Been collecting the items for an Ashwood Crossbow, and while it's not quite as ridiculous as this, it is pretty close. I'm lacking one last ingredient which I just need a skilled alchemist to make for me and then heaven forbid I roll a 1 on my initial crafting roll.... I will probably roll a new character if that happens.

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Re: Enchanted Shield, LOL

Post by Aodh Lazuli » Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:35 pm

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=23306&p=185545#p185545

Since I posted that, more nested crafting recipes have been added. Evidently, this is the direction the devs want crafting to go.
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Tarkus the dog
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Re: Enchanted Shield, LOL

Post by Tarkus the dog » Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:47 pm

Big brain: Put a weight reduction enchantment with a greater rune on an addy tower shield and get 10% piercing immunity

Bigger brain: Waste literal weeks nit-picking through million items items and combining them together in other to get the same thing as above, but without the 10% piercing immunity

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the grim yeeter
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Re: Enchanted Shield, LOL

Post by the grim yeeter » Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:48 pm

Aodh Lazuli wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:35 pm
Evidently, this is the direction the devs want crafting to go.
W H Y ?

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Re: Enchanted Shield, LOL

Post by Aodh Lazuli » Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:50 pm

the grim yeeter wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:48 pm
Aodh Lazuli wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:35 pm
Evidently, this is the direction the devs want crafting to go.
W H Y ?
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Tarkus the dog wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:47 pm
Big brain: Put a weight reduction enchantment with a greater rune on an addy tower shield and get 10% piercing immunity

Bigger brain: Waste literal weeks nit-picking through million items items and combining them together in other to get the same thing as above, but without the 10% piercing immunity

Halflings and kobolds rejoice


In fairness, best thing about it is the fact you can slap a 15k gp rune on it, to get something much more useful than weight reduction, while still having a v. light shield.

Plus, large shields look badass.
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the grim yeeter
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Re: Enchanted Shield, LOL

Post by the grim yeeter » Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:53 pm

Aodh Lazuli wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:50 pm

In fairness, best thing about it is the fact you can slap a 15k gp rune on it, to get something much more useful than weight reduction.

Plus, large shields look badass.
Additionally, the armor check penalty of -2 instead of -3 could be nice for some dex builds. Although, obviously not worth going through this hell for, lmao.

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Aodh Lazuli
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Re: Enchanted Shield, LOL

Post by Aodh Lazuli » Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:55 pm

the grim yeeter wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:53 pm
Aodh Lazuli wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:50 pm

In fairness, best thing about it is the fact you can slap a 15k gp rune on it, to get something much more useful than weight reduction.

Plus, large shields look badass.
Additionally, the armor check penalty of -2 instead of -3 could be nice for some dex builds. Although, obviously not worth going through this hell for, lmao.
I got one on my most recent dexxer (and slapped uni on it with a T1 wood rune), and it was a nice thing to have. But honestly, I just forked out 400k for one I saw in a shop, rather than trying to get all the crafted bits together for a carpenter to mess with.

But I do agree, the crafting process for this item in particular is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay over the top, and needs looking at. But this isn't the first time it's been addressed, and since then the design choice has been reinforced with other items that also use nested crafting recipes... I'm not entirely sure what we can do. There aren't enough people who care to make a big enough noise about it for the dev guys to pay attention, as really, it's a pretty niche item.
Last edited by Aodh Lazuli on Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Enchanted Shield, LOL

Post by DM GrumpyCat » Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:58 pm

I think the argument for why to do it this way is it encourages people to go to other other characters in search for the components to make it.

So instead of just needing to be a carpenter to make the best of whatever, you should have excellent Herbalist/smith friends. thus encouraging roleplay.
This too shall pass.

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Aodh Lazuli
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Re: Enchanted Shield, LOL

Post by Aodh Lazuli » Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:59 pm

DM GrumpyCat wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:58 pm
thus encouraging roleplay.
But it doesn't... All it does is encourage people not to use the item.

if you gave everyone all their gear for free, they'd roleplay with one another, about things other than gear. The idea that somehow putting up frustration-hoops for people to jump through for gear promotes roleplay, is misguided. The roleplay it generates is this:

"Hello here are some ingredients, can you make me a thing?"
"No, because it is very annoying."


And while this is an interaction, it is not an interaction worth talking about. There is nothing interesting about it. You might as well be talking about the minutiae of fence post design.

Roleplay emerges not from a character's gear needs, but from their personality. Trying to force interactions thruogh making gear difficult to obtain just leads to routine-like, soulless, boring and contrived roleplay.

When our characters last engaged with one another, it was a nice little scene that unfolded... Not because they needed some equipment from one another and had been forced into the same place by that need, but because both characters have an interesting personality and outlook. If I had been chasing after gear from you, then less time would have been spent in developing that personality and exploring it in the context of their encounter, thus lowering the overall quality of the interaction.

(Edited to elaborate on the point.)
Last edited by Aodh Lazuli on Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:09 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Tarkus the dog
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Re: Enchanted Shield, LOL

Post by Tarkus the dog » Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:06 pm

It doesn't encourage encourage good roleplay, that's the issue.

I'd rather grind 400k via other means and buy it from a shop then go through the process of making it. I share this mentality with other people. If people are looking for roleplay, they are going to do it via other means.

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Re: Enchanted Shield, LOL

Post by DM GrumpyCat » Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:17 pm

I should put in - this is not an issue I have strong feelings on either way. I'm just placing the other side of the argument as I think exists.

The other side says
a) It means that there is work not just for those who make the high dc stuff, but also for those who make the components - such as seed balms and such.
b) whilst you're right not much rp will neccesarly be made from buying a small seedbalm, it does encourage you to seek out other characters and require them to assist you in making your gear, one hopes. An introduction to rp as it were, a gateway. A reason to seek out other PCs.
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Re: Enchanted Shield, LOL

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:25 pm

I actually love these recipes and wish there were more like them. I feel so out of touch lol. I only wish wood crafting had things that everyone would use so It was more beneficial to take then just hoping you are the only wood crafter in what ever area you settle in.

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Re: Enchanted Shield, LOL

Post by Aodh Lazuli » Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:39 pm

DM GrumpyCat wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:17 pm
The other side says
a) It means that there is work not just for those who make the high dc stuff, but also for those who make the components - such as seed balms and such.
Alchemists and herbalists already have plenty to do. In fact they do an absolutely roaring trade in consumables (heal potions, poisons and essences particularly), and are often sought out for that reason.

DM GrumpyCat wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:17 pm
b) whilst you're right not much rp will neccesarly be made from buying a small seedbalm, it does encourage you to seek out other characters and require them to assist you in making your gear, one hopes. An introduction to rp as it were, a gateway. A reason to seek out other PCs.
Nobody can create all their own gear. This is true regardless of these nested crafting recipes. A tailor who can craft rogue leathers, cannot make the MD rapier they need.

A carpenter who can make their own bow, can't make the boots they require.

A smith can't make a sergeant's cloak.

The craft interdependence already exists, and functions. These recipes are mostly just a frustration.

Thank you for putting this argument up... It's really important that it is done, because it presents the opportunity to discuss its merit, and bring up the counter-counter points and so on. useful thing for someone to do.
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Re: Enchanted Shield, LOL

Post by CosmicOrderV » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:09 pm

I feel like a lot of folks who comment here have never played a Korean mmo :lol:

Honestly I like the complex crafts with tiers. Maybe some crafting point reductions could be cool somewhere? But the real life process inspiration here is really neat. I hope other older recipes get tweaked to require more of this stuff. Again, maybe just reducing the crafting point requirements here-and-there.
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Zavandar
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Re: Enchanted Shield, LOL

Post by Zavandar » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:24 pm

or maybe there's a reason we're playing arelith and not a korean mmo
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Re: Enchanted Shield, LOL

Post by Lunargent » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:24 pm

CosmicOrderV wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:09 pm
I feel like a lot of folks who comment here have never played a Korean mmo :lol:
Could it be because Korean MMOs are bad?

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Sockss
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Re: Enchanted Shield, LOL

Post by Sockss » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:27 pm

Generally what happens is people go: "Hey can you give me a hand with this" In completely OOC channels.

When things are frustrating people want to get it over and done with, not talk it out and make the whole super tedious thing even more tedious.

I'd go so far as to say it discourages roleplay.
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Re: Enchanted Shield, LOL

Post by the grim yeeter » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:31 pm

The misconception that these recipes encourage roleplay is very out of touch. The majority of players don't want to do "craft" RP: it's repetitive and often has very little depth to it. All people want is for the arduous, extremely tedious recipe to be over with, already having spent too much frustrating time trying to find other people who can (and are actually willing to) help them make the parts that they can't craft themselves. Few people play Arelith to look at someone else's four-line emotes on how they make their seed balm. Really.
DM GrumpyCat wrote:b) whilst you're right not much rp will neccesarly be made from buying a small seedbalm, it does encourage you to seek out other characters and require them to assist you in making your gear, one hopes. An introduction to rp as it were, a gateway. A reason to seek out other PCs.
But here's the thing: people don't need this excuse to seek out one another. If people want to roleplay with each other, they'll roleplay with each other. They don't need a ridiculously, unnecessarily long crafting recipe as a reason to.

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Mr_Rieper
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Re: Enchanted Shield, LOL

Post by Mr_Rieper » Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:03 pm

It might be interesting to create if there were purely mercantile or purely crafter characters that existed.

As it stands on the server, in order to obtain materials, you need to be able to clear dungeons. Thus, you need to have a proper build that can contribute in those dungeons. Thus, crafting is nearly always a secondary priority to simply grinding the gold and paying the few that have the extra time on their hands to make the equipment. And yes, it is always extra time, because those characters are all level 30 and fully equipped themselves. Thus, a secondary priority to them.

I've never seen the appeal to this. It feels very MMO-like and not at all fun. We've seen great examples in tv shows and anime of hypothetical game where not everybody has to be a level 30 adventurer to be respected and contribute. Mostly anime like Log Horizon, even if it is an MMO, it's at least a complex one. My characters hardly ever bother with the crafting system with all its dialogue windows, extremely specific ingredients and permanent skill allocation - it's just hardly ever worth the struggle. The characters of mine who are built to be in leadership positions pretty much just take a decent amount of carpentry, tailoring & artistry skill to create furniture and fixtures. The rest don't bother with crafting at all.

There is an opportunity for attempting purely crafter characters whose entire RP concept is working at a forge, offering their RPed expertise on blacksmithing matters, creating unique weapons and equipment. I could see a tailor character who designs clothes and sets the local fashion. As for the enchanted shield, it may be a point of pride for a carpenter to create them with his extensive expertise on carpentry and woodwork. However, no such characters exist because the rest of the server would require them to be a full time adventurer just to become an expert in the first place.

TL:DR - It would be fun for dedicated RP crafter characters. Unfortunately, they hardly exist. No full time adventurer is going to view harassing another full time adventurer for crafting stuff as an RP opportunity. It's just not something people RP.
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Royal Blood
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Re: Enchanted Shield, LOL

Post by Royal Blood » Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:20 pm

Things have RP value if you make them have RP value I think.

I got the enchanted shield on my character, yeah, it took a ton of work. And when it was presented to Clea it was a fully unique item with a lovely description and name. It's like her most treasured piece of equipment, it holds a lot of value because of the RP put into, then secondly the time needed to even make one holds weight.

I ... Agree the recipes are a pain to put together. But so long as the reward for the work is adequate, I think it can have -plenty- of value and RP value.

I think an issue is that... We just look at it as MMO instead of putting in the time to make it an RP oriented thing. You could easily RP gathering the materials for these, or interacting with other crafters to make them etc, I think it does fuel RP.

If you view it as a long slog to get something and the entire process is just annoying? Honestly I think it requires a change of perspective. Like if you're annoyed you don't have the shield, and are angry because the process is long I think it rests in the hands of the player to make it into something more fun? More valuable? More RP oriented? Like you have to put your own value into it.

The fun is in the journey! Not the reward!

I support tough crafting recipes that are time consuming. Enjoy the journey to the item.
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Re: Enchanted Shield, LOL

Post by MajorArcana » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:54 pm

Aodh Lazuli wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:39 pm
DM GrumpyCat wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:17 pm
The other side says
a) It means that there is work not just for those who make the high dc stuff, but also for those who make the components - such as seed balms and such.
Alchemists and herbalists already have plenty to do. In fact they do an absolutely roaring trade in consumables (heal potions, poisons and essences particularly), and are often sought out for that reason.
I'm currently playing a split-crafting point alchemist/herbalist and I can say, with full certainty, that if anyone came up to me asking for this gods-forsaken shield and/or its ingredients I would flat-out tell them "No, please find someone else. I'm a very busy woman."

It's too much of a point sink into an item that, frankly, cuts into the possibility of making more money by making other things. Secondly, the amount of time it takes to make is ungodly, and not everyone can log in every two and a half hours on the dot to dump points into an item that by the time it's half-way through they already want to burn to ash.

For giggles, I broke down the ingredient list, and the cost of the CP to share here:

Code: Select all

Absolute Base Ingredients That Require No CP:
20 nuts
6 strideleaf
4 softwood
8 malyss
18 harnak
2 iron chunk
6 sassone
12 yarrow
30 hardwood
2 fruit
1 salt
1 large hide
28 coal
6 sand
3 arjale chunks
3 mithril chunks
2 adamantine chunks
1 dragon hide
1 dragon blood

Components of Nested Ingredients, and The Ingredients Themselves:
3 alchemist fire            10 CP
2 ashwood stablizers	100 CP
1 dragon oil	                35 CP
4 hardening finish	160 CP
2 emulsified oil	        40 CP
5 pine tar	                15 CP
8 charcoal	                  0 CP (byproduct of pine tar production)
2 natural gums	        30 CP
5 flasks of oil	        20 CP
3 hardwood resins	120 CP
41 glass vials	        45 CP
2 small seed balm	20 CP
1 tanning acid	        1 CP
1 large leather	        1 CP
6 glass bottles	        10 CP
22 glass	                        30 CP
5 raw fluorspar	        5 CP
1 large shield (wood)	1 CP
1 sturdy wood shield	26 CP
1 hardened shield	59 CP
1 enchanted shield	250 CP

Total CP: 978 CP
At the very least, you would have to wait over 48 hours for crafting points to refresh. It would take at least that long to create, assuming you had all the ingredients on hand, a group of people with all the necessary craft point investments to create the nested ingredients, and that you roll no ones during the creation of a nested ingredient or while putting in points to progress. This could easily be over a thousand point sink. And, since most people don't play 24/7, the likelihood of someone (or multiple people) making this shield in the minimum amount of time (or even in a week) is horrifically improbable.

It's not worth the effort, and claiming that it "makes RP" is a flimsy argument at best. If people want stuff made, they don't usually stick around, breathing down our necks, and ask for updates while whatever it is they ordered is being completed. They just provide the items/gold, and go away until the crafter sends them a message that they're done and to please pick it up.

It's fine to have a recipe that has one (maybe two) nested items. But this is absolutely excessive, and nobody I've spoken to (people who made one and/or used it on their character) believe it's worth it.

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