Derro ECL

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Sea Shanties
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Derro ECL

Post by Sea Shanties » Fri May 17, 2019 1:19 am

Derros are awesome!

But I do have have a question, they're 2 ECL.. Is that high? They seem about the same if not worse than 1 ECL Duergar (as an example) and don't have any really outstanding abilities or bonuses.

I'll likely play one either way and it's not a big deal, and I don't have an issue with any of the stats at all but it would certainly be nice to have a slot free for an ability gift. Or is there perhaps a strength they have that I'm missing?

TimeAdept
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Re: Derro ECL

Post by TimeAdept » Fri May 17, 2019 3:42 am

Worse than Duergar all around. 16 SR is useless. I don't think the race warrants +2 unless the SR starts to scale. They're along the same lines as Hobgoblins and Duergar, but both those races are only ECL +1.

Race is still very good b/c +2 dex +2 con is inherently good and wis is a dump stat, but compared to things like duergar, hobgob, genasi, Svirf, Wild Dwarf and so on, the +2 ECL seems like a miss if the SR doesn't scale or the Darkness doesn't give some extra little perk.

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Kuma
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Re: Derro ECL

Post by Kuma » Fri May 17, 2019 3:55 am

Give them +4 CHA and -4 WIS. They're literally insane, with forceful personalities. Their stats do not reflect this. They should also be made immune to Confusion effects.

Basically:

+2 DEX
get rid of their con bonus
-4 WIS
+4 CHA
Rapid Reload (they're infamous crossbow users; drow often sell to them)
Confusion immunity
keep the vuln / hide ms / poison /stature etc

As it stands, even though the frontpage update post says they're led by their savants (warlocks and sorcerers), they can't even take a gift of Cha to boost themselves. They also receive even higher penalties to Wis and bonuses to Cha in P&P.

then, they might be worth +2 ECL. The SR can be taken or left as is, 16 is literally inconsequential.
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Sea Shanties
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Re: Derro ECL

Post by Sea Shanties » Fri May 17, 2019 4:04 am

Another UD race without a charisma penalty is certainly welcome and it would definitely be nice to be able to boost it with a gift. If what you say about crossbows is canon it could be cool if they were able to use the special drow crossbows without UMD.

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Durvayas
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Re: Derro ECL

Post by Durvayas » Fri May 17, 2019 5:36 am

Sea Shanties wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 4:04 am
Another UD race without a charisma penalty is certainly welcome and it would definitely be nice to be able to boost it with a gift. If what you say about crossbows is canon it could be cool if they were able to use the special drow crossbows without UMD.
No, they should not have the ability to use drow crossbows without UMD, but they should get point blank shot and rapid reload for free.
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Kuma
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Re: Derro ECL

Post by Kuma » Fri May 17, 2019 6:05 am

in fact i'd instead remove the racial requirements on drow crossbows and just make them repeater crossbows, at this point in arelith's tech advancement.
Sockss wrote:If you build badly, that's your choice.
Irongron wrote:I do not wish to see another phoney discussion about what is or isn't pg13

Gobbo Champion Inc
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Re: Derro ECL

Post by Gobbo Champion Inc » Fri May 17, 2019 6:53 am

I really like that idea. Repeater crossbows should be a thing, and opening up the drow crossbow is a good start.

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Durvayas
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Re: Derro ECL

Post by Durvayas » Fri May 17, 2019 10:50 pm

Gobbo Champion Inc wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 6:53 am
I really like that idea. Repeater crossbows should be a thing, and opening up the drow crossbow is a good start.
Only if we're opening up every other racial weapon. Its only reasonable.

If you only add repeater crossbows to Derro is one thing. If you give them racial feats is also fine.

But the drow crossbows are the only racial weapons to already get surpassed by other items (Ashwood crossbows). Its sort of not cool to open them up further unless the drow get something better to compensate.

The only other drow-only item was those Vlos'Kaliitz bolts, which no one in their right mind will ever make because template ammunition is a hundred times easier to make and much, much better. Those were already rendered obsolete.

Lets not make something better by making something else worse.
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Sea Shanties
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Re: Derro ECL

Post by Sea Shanties » Fri May 17, 2019 11:22 pm

Sorry I brought Crossbows up and maybe it should be a different topic. I could honestly care less about Derro using drow crossbows, just trying to get in the spirit of brainstorming.

Still hoping the Derro ECL is looked at. I'd like to make one but have the feeling I should wait and see if they are tweaked first.

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Re: Derro ECL

Post by Nitro » Sat May 18, 2019 12:58 am

Durvayas wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 10:50 pm
Lets not make something better by making something else worse.
But it's not? Something being available to more than one race doesn't make that race worse. Weapons aren't a zero-sum game.

That aside, I do think there should be some generic non-racially-locked repeater crossbows in the matrix, and also wholly support some stat changes for the Derros since they're kinda pathetic at 2ECL at the moment.

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Durvayas
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Re: Derro ECL

Post by Durvayas » Sat May 18, 2019 3:50 am

Nitro wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 12:58 am
Durvayas wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 10:50 pm
Lets not make something better by making something else worse.
But it's not? Something being available to more than one race doesn't make that race worse. Weapons aren't a zero-sum game.
If a race is given race specific items, those items are meant to encourage people to play that race. Its a special 'bonus' of sorts that provides more building opportunities and provides a niche for that race. Removing the exclusivity of something dilutes this, depriving the race, in this case the drow, of its niche.

The drow, in this case, have already been partly shafted because their bonus items (The currently useless Vloz'kaliitz bolts and their racial crossbows) have already been rendered obsolete by the introduction of superior items. Diluting this further by making the items more available to other races does not help them, it only further removes the drow marksman archetype from being a niche drow fill nicely. Hence, making them worse; Arguably not by a lot, since ashwood crossbows are already a thing, but still.

What items are in the game, and what groups are able to use them, are design decisions that do affect player choice every bit as much as such things as ECL and racial stats. It should be considered carefully if expanding drow racial items to other races is a good idea.

Personally, I don't think it is. Right now elves and drow can use eachother's equipment to better kill eachother, which is good for their omnigenerational genocidal war. This is fine, there is a certain irony to an elf shooting a drow with a spinnerette and a drow stabbing an elf with a moonblade.

Derro, however, should be given their own thing, which would bring them in line with every other race having its own unique items, and providing them their own niche. Right now it seems pretty rogue oriented, perhaps a short sword or racial dagger would be most appropriate.
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JubJub
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Re: Derro ECL

Post by JubJub » Sat May 18, 2019 4:14 am

But not sure any reward races have their own racial items. As Irongron said about ogres:

"I actually prefer reward races to be more thematic than mechanically powerful"

Gobbo Champion Inc
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Re: Derro ECL

Post by Gobbo Champion Inc » Sat May 18, 2019 12:34 pm

I fully agree, and dont understand this kind of protectionism when it comes to look. Making the drow crossbow open to all wont make the item worse, or the drow that use them less powerful

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Aftond
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Re: Derro ECL

Post by Aftond » Sat May 18, 2019 1:28 pm

What I don't get is why derro is a reward race. They are supposed to be numerous, so why limit them with a normal?

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Jagel
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Re: Derro ECL

Post by Jagel » Sat May 18, 2019 1:33 pm

Probably because if their murderous sadism and insanity. Too many might negatively affect the overall rp in the UD. Just guessing

Archnon
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Re: Derro ECL

Post by Archnon » Sat May 18, 2019 9:47 pm

Jagel wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 1:33 pm
Probably because if their murderous sadism and insanity. Too many might negatively affect the overall rp in the UD. Just guessing
Is there still an early level ud quest to cull the derro as that could make for some entertaining rp

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Iceborn
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Re: Derro ECL

Post by Iceborn » Sun May 19, 2019 3:44 pm

Jagel wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 1:33 pm
Probably because if their murderous sadism and insanity. Too many might negatively affect the overall rp in the UD. Just guessing
Kobolds are sadistic dragonlackeys.
Duergars are massive slavers.
Drow are random stabby-stabby schemers.
Gnolls are trash bins and actually help a lot to keep the things clean because they are responsible members of the community that were taught early the proper values of recycling and the environmental impact of body littering.

I think we are good to welcome one more weirdo into the family.
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Azensor
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Re: Derro ECL

Post by Azensor » Sun May 19, 2019 8:25 pm

Iceborn wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 3:44 pm
Jagel wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 1:33 pm
Probably because if their murderous sadism and insanity. Too many might negatively affect the overall rp in the UD. Just guessing
Kobolds are sadistic dragonlackeys.
Duergars are massive slavers.
Drow are random stabby-stabby schemers.
Gnolls are trash bins and actually help a lot to keep the things clean because they are responsible members of the community that were taught early the proper values of recycling and the environmental impact of body littering.

I think we are good to welcome one more weirdo into the family.

Dont forget the crazy goblins :lol:

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