Cordor Elections & Assassinations

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flower
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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by flower » Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:35 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:28 pm
Term limits are a good thing. All factions should institute them. No more then three consecutive elections.
To keep things dynamic, have timer set on factions leaders, guild house ownership, houses and other.

If you spell it under excuse of dynamic play, do not exclude other, much more worse things (like hogging guildhouse by single player for X years).

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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by Wytchee » Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:55 pm

flower wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:35 pm
BegoneThoth wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:28 pm
Term limits are a good thing. All factions should institute them. No more then three consecutive elections.
To keep things dynamic, have timer set on factions leaders, guild house ownership, houses and other.

If you spell it under excuse of dynamic play, do not exclude other, much more worse things (like hogging guildhouse by single player for X years).
Guildhouse hogging already has a safeguard in the way of DMs, btw.
Characters: Wylaana, aka "Dusty" (Active); Maedathenniel Faerondalan (Shelved); Khogi Toshkozin (Shelved); Mebrith Siana (Shelved, but watching you); and like a hundred other non-starters you've neither met nor heard of!

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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by flower » Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:19 pm

Still you heard call of dynamic play :D why should city leaders be temporary and faction leaders last for years? Or owners of shops / buildings?

Lets make it dynamic too :lol:

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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by Wytchee » Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:25 pm

flower wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:19 pm
Still you heard call of dynamic play :D why should city leaders be temporary and faction leaders last for years? Or owners of shops / buildings?

Lets make it dynamic too :lol:
I mean, I disagree. Some permanence is necessary simply for the sanity of the player base. And there is enough quarter/shop rotation as it is simply because of the fact that players get bored. The shops in the mercantile in Cordor change hands frequently.

I literally cannot keep up with the titles and government of Myon and my character is an Elf. I have heard one Coronal referred to as both a he and a she in the past IRL day.
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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by flower » Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:32 pm

Titles are irrelevant.

Rule in Cordor changes hands so fast i barely noticed there were elections. If this is the dynamic play, thanks, keep it to Cordor please :D

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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by Wytchee » Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:34 pm

flower wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:32 pm
Titles are irrelevant.

Rule in Cordor changes hands so fast i barely noticed there were elections. If this is the dynamic play, thanks, keep it to Cordor please :D
I'm agreeing with you lmao
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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by Sockss » Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:52 pm

Wytchee wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 2:09 pm
Hi. I am the player of the assassin'd chancellor.

I want to make sure everyone here knows that the assassination of Wylaana was legit and well-played (if extremely lucky). I am generally averse to PvP so generally just let things happen if I'm about to be killed.

A chancellor is able to run again after being assassinated and "reborn" as it were.

While I take it upon myself to play this out in good faith, I will echo others' concerns that the "ephemeral" nature of Cordorian politics makes it exceedingly difficult for any one administration (and I say administration referring to the dozens of player characters who are actually involved in any single chancellor's roleplay) to get a foothold, and to actually roleplay being part of the government. Wylaana got to be chancellor for a whole of three IRL days before she was deposed; if she wins again, I have little doubt another hit will be taken out on her life shortly after, too. I'll take that in stride.

My intention OOCly was to get as many people involved in Cordor government as wished to participate, via an Amnian-style guild democracy that remained true to FR's faux-medieval setting. Such a thing takes time and the participation of a lot of people, and to have it cut short so immediately was a bit frustrating. But while IC things are rough, there are no OOC hard feelings.

I'll conclude by reminding everyone that roleplay (even conflict roleplay) should be cooperative, an effort to build a collective story. It should not be competitive. IC losers (like myself, in this case) should never feel like they "lost" the game OOC. Roll with the punches, and remember that the "win/lose" mentality is the death of any roleplay server.
I'm glad there wasn't any metagaming going on there; I felt awful.

Though fwiw it's really difficult to create something interesting, but comparatively really easy to tear it down with the assassin system, which- maybe isn't the best thing.
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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by Durvayas » Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:00 pm

From the sounds of it, Cordor for the past week has been dealing with the issues the Devil's Table has been dealing with for a while.

While I agree that it IS a bit too easy to kill leadership off via an assassin, I don't see a way to limit the influence of assassins in the political system without de-incentivising people making and playing assassins more than they already are. Its already one of, if not THE worst, class in the game, with a somewhat disappointing guildhouse(due to having the most pointless merchant NPC on the server) that serves as little more than a private apartment with a portal.

Whatever changes are made to fix the assassin issue with politics, please don't make them worse.

Also, term limits are a bad idea, both because the odds of having a character outside of myon and brog hold the same position for so long are fairly low, and because they don't make any sense. If a faction has enough numbers to hold dominance, what difference does it make if the leader runs ad nauseum? If they have the numbers, they'll just have their lieutenant run and puppet master for a term before re-asserting control; It its pointless.

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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by PeterRasta » Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:14 pm

If they have the numbers, they'll just have their lieutenant run and puppet master for a term before re-asserting control; It its pointless.
I'd just like to point out that I think this sounds very interesting as opposed to pointless. It would also open up new avenues of political RP, either that of fostering a mentor/student or puppeteer/puppet relationship, and so on. Whilst you can still do that as it stands, there's little to no incentive to actually go about doing it.
There's a thousand ways that one interim term can end up, dependant on the man/woman you've chosen, or the core loyalty of your faction, etc.

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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by Wytchee » Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:16 pm

I will just say this:

While conflict RP is great, even if it leads to PvP, I feel that the current system encourages a lack of cooperative roleplay and rather fosters an environment where "victory by PvP" is not a last resort but the go-to option.
Characters: Wylaana, aka "Dusty" (Active); Maedathenniel Faerondalan (Shelved); Khogi Toshkozin (Shelved); Mebrith Siana (Shelved, but watching you); and like a hundred other non-starters you've neither met nor heard of!

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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by DM GrumpyCat » Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:19 pm

I feel I need to point out

We've had two assassinations in about two months.

One of those assassinations happened technically over 3 weeks into a chancellors term (ok into a factions term, but there was a lot of wierd fenangling that went on there)

The other seems to have mostly been opportunistic. At least partly down to pure luck.

Now I know there has been other assassinations of chancellors of Cordor before that, but I can't remember when off hand, or whom.

And indeed, barring perhaps Andunor, I can't recall when the last assassination of ANY settlment leader was.

Sure, two within that period is unusually high, but two is a coincidence, not a pattern.
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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by Silvard » Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:33 pm

Mechanical exiles are the definition of exclusionary, are considerably less interactive and far less "cooperative" storytelling than assassinations, yet the former are used and maintained as political tools often enough because they're in the system. Why should assassinations be any different? Sure, they lead to chaos and instability, and it may not be the story one wants, but that is also a story. A far more collaborative one than mechanically exiling opposition, since some times assassinations may be the only way for actors to contribute to the story on their terms. Not to mention that assassinations allow to you literally fight back. It engenders interactions of different types, while an exile only diminishes it by design. Most of the times it's more disruptive to a settlement than an exile, but it's far from infallible.

Reducing the ability of actors to interact with a story seems to me counterproductive to collaborative storytelling. It's already permissive enough that a character can just bounce back and directly engage in the RP again. Mechanical exiles have always been considered a valid political tool, all that has happened is that assassinations have been legitimized as ways for factions to exert influence in Cordor in particular. Holding power should not mean a safe space for political RP.

If this is a problem then perhaps the entirety of the settlement system and its mechanics, as well as the way they impact RP, should be looked at.

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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by ReverentBlade » Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:12 am

What I'd like to see is the option for the DM in charge of the settlement to be able to pause the timers and system if he or she is taking a break. Its tough to have to deal with the system churning ever onward when your DM goes dark and your ambitions are paused.

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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by Sab1 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:33 am

Cortex wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:17 pm
I'm of the opinion nothing should be allowed to last "forever" (as in an inordinary long time) in what should be an otherwise dynamic RP enviromnent. I'm not saying Ghestaldt/the dwarves are at fault (I generally think they've stayed the way they are in a cool way), and if terms were somehow limited, I'm certain they'd make do.

I'm also not saying there's been any recent case of someone staying in power unrightfully for too long, just that it is mechanically possible and something I do not think should be a thing.
Vanion once said "I have stayed in power so long because no one else wants the job". Myon is a place where is does seem hard to find people who actually want to run things.Some people face few elections becuase some believe thinsg are so stacked it's impossible to get someone out of power. But in some cases like myon, many simply don't wish to do it.

I like Titania's ideas but some towns a term limit doesn't make sense. Another change should be:
Make one vote per CD key total so a player has to pick a settlement, that's a way to make elections mean something and stop people from camping characters in each city.

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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by Wytchee » Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:36 am

DM GrumpyCat wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:19 pm
I feel I need to point out

We've had two assassinations in about two months.

One of those assassinations happened technically over 3 weeks into a chancellors term (ok into a factions term, but there was a lot of wierd fenangling that went on there)

The other seems to have mostly been opportunistic. At least partly down to pure luck.

Now I know there has been other assassinations of chancellors of Cordor before that, but I can't remember when off hand, or whom.

And indeed, barring perhaps Andunor, I can't recall when the last assassination of ANY settlment leader was.

Sure, two within that period is unusually high, but two is a coincidence, not a pattern.
There was an attempted assassination on Qasi, as well. So that would have made three.

As for the exile system, I have my issues with that, too; but part of me feels it's mechanically necessary being that players who would otherwise enforce it can't be around 24/7 to ensure it's not cheesed (it's cheesed anyway). I do wish it was less clumsy/absolute.
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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:18 am

Silvard wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:33 pm
Mechanical exiles are the definition of exclusionary, are considerably less interactive and far less "cooperative" storytelling than assassinations, yet the former are used and maintained as political tools often enough because they're in the system. Why should assassinations be any different? Sure, they lead to chaos and instability, and it may not be the story one wants, but that is also a story. A far more collaborative one than mechanically exiling opposition, since some times assassinations may be the only way for actors to contribute to the story on their terms. Not to mention that assassinations allow to you literally fight back. It engenders interactions of different types, while an exile only diminishes it by design. Most of the times it's more disruptive to a settlement than an exile, but it's far from infallible.

Reducing the ability of actors to interact with a story seems to me counterproductive to collaborative storytelling. It's already permissive enough that a character can just bounce back and directly engage in the RP again. Mechanical exiles have always been considered a valid political tool, all that has happened is that assassinations have been legitimized as ways for factions to exert influence in Cordor in particular. Holding power should not mean a safe space for political RP.

If this is a problem then perhaps the entirety of the settlement system and its mechanics, as well as the way they impact RP, should be looked at.
I think this is very on point.

Frankly, if you get assassinated as a political leader, and decide to stand for election again ... something seems off. The system shouldn't allow for this. We talk about assassinations promoting PvP as the only viable means of political victory (and yeah, why shouldn't it? might makes right), but there's something equally as dangerous as undermining the actions of an assassin by just going "yep sure will run again" immediately after.
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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by Ork » Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:20 am

Wytchee wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:16 pm
I will just say this:

While conflict RP is great, even if it leads to PvP, I feel that the current system encourages a lack of cooperative roleplay and rather fosters an environment where "victory by PvP" is not a last resort but the go-to option.
I harshly disagree with this line of thinking, and ask you to re-examine the comment. PvP was never a last option, it is simply an option. However, PvP rarely solves the crisis the aggressor is trying to solve. The rare case is in assassinations & one of the main reasons assassin PrCs still require a DM token.

Assassinations are an opportunity to create compelling cloak & dagger roleplay. It is a matter of perspective for the assassinated on how to view the death. Is it merely an inconvenience or is it something drastic to your characters life? To perceive it as irrelevant because PvP is viewed negatively steals an opportunity from both the assassinated and the assassin.

The continuation of PvP = bad only serves to undermine roleplay potential, and often it is the mark of a great roleplayer when loss is embraced in spite of the circumstances.

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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by Cortex » Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:29 am

Sab1 wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:33 am
Make one vote per CD key total so a player has to pick a settlement, that's a way to make elections mean something and stop people from camping characters in each city.
That should already be the case.
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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by Sab1 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:35 am

To my knowledge (I might be wrong) but it one vote per CD key per city. So you could have a character in every city and vote once in each city. I think you should get one vote total, so the player needs to pick the city they want to vote in.

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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by Sab1 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:38 am

Wytchee wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:16 pm
I will just say this:

While conflict RP is great, even if it leads to PvP, I feel that the current system encourages a lack of cooperative roleplay and rather fosters an environment where "victory by PvP" is not a last resort but the go-to option.
But as we have seen the number of chancellors that have been assassinated is very small. And the way the system stands it means very little, since the person can simply run again and unless many of their followers have wandered off or change their mind, they should be reelected again.

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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by PeterRasta » Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:48 am

And the way the system stands it means very little, since the person can simply run again and unless many of their followers have wandered off or change their mind, they should be reelected again.
That seems like wasting a bit of everybody's time though, to be repeating the same (arduous for the applicants) process all over again to no different a result. That's why I'm all for Titania's suggestions, with varying degrees of consequences dependent on when the deed is done. This wouldn't even stifle the RP of the opponents seeking to thwart someone, it would just add the variable of timing to take into consideration with their plans. On the contrary even, if timed correctly their intended mark won't even be able to stand for re-election afterwards, which would be a boon to the opponent side.

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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by Wytchee » Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:42 am

Ork wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:20 am
Wytchee wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:16 pm
I will just say this:

While conflict RP is great, even if it leads to PvP, I feel that the current system encourages a lack of cooperative roleplay and rather fosters an environment where "victory by PvP" is not a last resort but the go-to option.
I harshly disagree with this line of thinking, and ask you to re-examine the comment. PvP was never a last option, it is simply an option. However, PvP rarely solves the crisis the aggressor is trying to solve. The rare case is in assassinations & one of the main reasons assassin PrCs still require a DM token.

Assassinations are an opportunity to create compelling cloak & dagger roleplay. It is a matter of perspective for the assassinated on how to view the death. Is it merely an inconvenience or is it something drastic to your characters life? To perceive it as irrelevant because PvP is viewed negatively steals an opportunity from both the assassinated and the assassin.

The continuation of PvP = bad only serves to undermine roleplay potential, and often it is the mark of a great roleplayer when loss is embraced in spite of the circumstances.
I think you're reading a bit too much into my comment. : P

I didn't mean to imply PvP or even assassinations were bad. I only feel that the current system is a bit too... I guess "convenient" is the word. I have, so far, enjoyed the aftermath. I enjoy that Wylaana is now flanked on all sides by Contract Veterans who seem willing to fight and die for her. I like the roleplay that creates for other people, and to that extent I'm kind of glad Wyl was offed.
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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by Ninjaturtle » Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:12 am

How about the idea of creating some kind of repercussion to a failed assassination attempt. As in if the assassin dies during the attempt then it is considered a capture and the individual who paid for the contract is revealed. This should make a lot of players think twice before placing a contract and maintain the fun that comes with corrupting elections. Additionally, I think if the changes ever get made to the bluff skill then you can do things like body doubles and such that would make assassination attempts a bit harder.

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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by CharlesK » Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:13 pm

DM GrumpyCat wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:19 pm
Sure, two within that period is unusually high, but two is a coincidence, not a pattern.
Well said...
Besides think of all the intrigue in many instances of European history. Muder, poison, betrayal Intrigue... (Ahhh the Intrigues of Italian history - my fav)

I think people forgot this isn't some modern fairy tale (completely) sanitized setting. Bad things will happen to bad people, bad things will happen to good people, bad things will just plain happen. There will problems and challenges for leaders good and bad.

As a DM once told me, things will happen you might not like, you just need to roll with it and move on. I thought this was some pretty wise advice
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When the DM asks you "Are you sure you want to do that?"
Then go on with your idea and die...
Your an idiot and the party hopes the next character you role is smarter...
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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by DM GrumpyCat » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:12 pm

One thing I think helps to get a perspective enough is to imagine a scenario. I invite you all to cast your thoughts onto this idea, pretend - for but a moment, that this is really happening.

Jane SweetyToes decides to run for office in cordor under the Lollypop Faction.

Jane gets elected!

*Gasp!* Jane SweetyToes is in fact a puppet for the evil Cyracists!

She raises taxes to 100%, she decries that Cyric is the god of Cordor! She evicts and paladins she sees! She exiles anyone who leads a revolution! Her group of evil guards beat up people hither and thither!

And mechanicaly the Paladins/Sunites/Healers can do....

nothing.

Oh sure yeah, you can kill her. But unless the player decides to perma then your'e stuck with them. One RL month (or longer if you want to extend the term) of a leader where you have no, absolutly no mechanical way of dealing with her so long as she has the slightest bit of intelect.

I use this example because whilst the Assassin system is most often used by evil characters (as indeed it should be) there might certainly be situations where Good aligned characters might want to use it too. And I would imagine, as in the above, they would suddenly miss it as an option were it gone.

Now personaly, I could just roll with it. It's the way the cookie crumbles and all that. But I want you to consider, if you are arguing for a removal of the removal system, how you'd feel in that situation. Would you still be glad it was gone? Or would you wish it were there to give you some form of recourse?


If you can honestly still say the former then all power to you! But it is worth keeping a mind on bias here.

As a final point - the main way I would consider changing the Assassination system, was to make it so that, after placing the contract, there is a 24 rl hour period (or maybe just 'next reset' period) until allmost all the other mechanics kicked in, save that of the target being warned. This would give the target a potential 24 hour 'grace period' to choose to pay off their contract, if they wished.

This would prevent things like an assassin getting into place, someone putting on the contract, then the assassin assassinating the target literally seconds later.
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