Class dip for getting GSF enchantment

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NegInfinity
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Class dip for getting GSF enchantment

Post by NegInfinity » Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:24 pm

What would you suggest for a class dip in order to get CSF enchantment on largely non-magical character?

The ones I can think of are bard and cleric, and character would need to start at level 1 with those. (medium attack progression... not bad)

Any other options?

PinataPlethora
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Re: Class dip for getting GSF enchantment

Post by PinataPlethora » Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:41 pm

Ranger is a pretty popular one. It has an excellent array of skills for dumping, and can take GSF as a bonus feat in place of Favored Enemies.

NegInfinity
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Re: Class dip for getting GSF enchantment

Post by NegInfinity » Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:03 am

PinataPlethora wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:41 pm
Ranger is a pretty popular one. It has an excellent array of skills for dumping, and can take GSF as a bonus feat in place of Favored Enemies.
That's actually a great idea. I haven't thought about that.
Full attack progression, unlike bard and nice feats on the first level.
The only issue is that it can't take Spell Focus at level 1 meaning it'll need more than 3 levels.

PinataPlethora
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Re: Class dip for getting GSF enchantment

Post by PinataPlethora » Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:07 am

NegInfinity wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:03 am
The only issue is that it can't take Spell Focus at level 1 meaning it'll need more than 3 levels.
If you want any more help than that, you're going to have to give us some sort of idea of what you're trying to build.

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Kenji3108
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Re: Class dip for getting GSF enchantment

Post by Kenji3108 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:11 am

You can delay Ranger levels until your character has SF, the first ranger level's FE can then be used for GSF instead.

If you are planning on taking Ranger as a first level character, then there won't be a way to convert the first FE, I'm afraid. But you can then take a path for the ranger, I guess.

PinataPlethora
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Re: Class dip for getting GSF enchantment

Post by PinataPlethora » Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:26 am

Kenji3108 wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:11 am
You can delay Ranger levels until your character has SF, the first ranger level's FE can then be used for GSF instead.
I have a feeling that this is intended to be a PrC heavy build requiring a suitable starter class.

Tourmaline
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Re: Class dip for getting GSF enchantment

Post by Tourmaline » Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:27 am

NegInfinity wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:24 pm
What would you suggest for a class dip in order to get CSF enchantment on largely non-magical character?

The ones I can think of are bard and cleric, and character would need to start at level 1 with those. (medium attack progression... not bad)

Any other options?
You don't need to start at level 1. Take SF enchantment on any level from the caster class. You can take a GSF feat any time, it doesn't need to be a caster level, as long as you have the first spell focus feat.

Starting as a bard isn't a terrible idea by the way since having UMD right off the bat means you can use summon scrolls (among other things) which makes early leveling a breeze.

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msterswrdsmn
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Re: Class dip for getting GSF enchantment

Post by msterswrdsmn » Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:17 am

Depends, really. What're your base classes and overall build goals?

NegInfinity
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Re: Class dip for getting GSF enchantment

Post by NegInfinity » Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:50 am

PinataPlethora wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:07 am
NegInfinity wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:03 am
The only issue is that it can't take Spell Focus at level 1 meaning it'll need more than 3 levels.
If you want any more help than that, you're going to have to give us some sort of idea of what you're trying to build.
What I meant is that a bard can take spell focus at level 1 while ranger can't ebcause ranger gets spellcasting ability at level 4.
msterswrdsmn wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:17 am
Depends, really. What're your base classes and overall build goals?
I'm looking for a generic least painful solution to get GSF on low magical builds so I won't need to search for enchanters.

Think about making things like Fighter27/something, Rogue27/something, etc.

Tourmaline
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Re: Class dip for getting GSF enchantment

Post by Tourmaline » Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:58 am

Bards can't take spell focus at level one. You need to be able to cast level 1 spells.

NegInfinity
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Re: Class dip for getting GSF enchantment

Post by NegInfinity » Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:03 am

Tourmaline wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:58 am
Bards can't take spell focus at level one. You need to be able to cast level 1 spells.
(-_-)
Here goes the nice idea.
They still can grab it on level 3, I believe.

And another option is a cleric, which has higher rp consequences.

PinataPlethora
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Re: Class dip for getting GSF enchantment

Post by PinataPlethora » Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:08 am

NegInfinity wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:50 am
I'm looking for a generic least painful solution to get GSF on low magical builds so I won't need to search for enchanters.
I am absolutely the last person who should be talking to anyone about bad build choices, given the trash I usually play, but even I will say that's a terrible build choice.

Enchanters are not that hard to find, and you're dumping two feats, three levels, and a potential third class choice into the toilet for +2 skills on your gear. And it won't even be top tier gear, so you'll still have to go through a Master Enchanter for your endgame set.

If your mind is made up, however, Wizard, Sorcerer, Druid, and Cleric are your options, assuming you don't want to go over three levels. Pick whichever matches your character best. Each will help you dodge UMD for certain wands/scrolls, but not all of them. Wiz/Sorc will get you one infinispell. Cleric/Druid will preserve more of your AB.

NegInfinity
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Re: Class dip for getting GSF enchantment

Post by NegInfinity » Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:09 am

PinataPlethora wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:08 am
NegInfinity wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:50 am
I'm looking for a generic least painful solution to get GSF on low magical builds so I won't need to search for enchanters.
I am absolutely the last person who should be talking to anyone about bad build choices, given the trash I usually play, but even I will say that's a terrible build choice.

Enchanters are not that hard to find, and you're dumping two feats, three levels, and a potential third class choice into the toilet for +2 skills on your gear. And it won't even be top tier gear, so you'll still have to go through a Master Enchanter for your endgame set.
This doesn't match my experience.

I go through my characters fairly quickly, when looking for a new concept, and concepts frequently require items. Finding enchanters is often problematic, and while on occasion you can just waltz into arcane tower and there will be someone, in many other occasions you'll be searching for days. IRL days.

For non-runic items, gsf can do anything master enchanter can , except it will cost more.
I've been able to make "6x(skills+2) stat +1 " items with my GSFs in the past. If you have deity with corresponding aspect, you'll have god saves as well.

As for end-game, I still have an epic level character in adamatine armor who wasn't able to find someone to make a strongly enchnated helmet, and is still wearing the helmet they enchanted themselves (Meaning it has +1 stat and nothing else) - several IRL months ago. Speaking of adamatine armor and end-game weapons I'd still to see even a tiny piece of zardazik anywhere, so I prefer to just give up on that.

Meaning I'd prefer a char that is as self-sufficient, as possible. Hence the question. And yeah, 3 levels and 2 feats for that is good enough for me.

PinataPlethora
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Re: Class dip for getting GSF enchantment

Post by PinataPlethora » Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:43 pm

NegInfinity wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:09 am
For non-runic items, gsf can do anything master enchanter can , except it will cost more.
That's not entirely correct. Enchantment focus doesn't just reduce the cost of your enchantments, it allows you to put more properties on an item before reaching the god-save cutoff. Matching a Master Enchanter in your case will mean that you have to spam enchant on a 5% chance with no god-saves. You'll still be able to reliably make half-decent gear, though.

Why not try a few test builds in the base game, to see which allow you to get the feats you want? You don't need anything Arelith specific for it, and console commands can do everything you need.

JediMindTrix
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Re: Class dip for getting GSF enchantment

Post by JediMindTrix » Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:52 am

PinataPlethora wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:43 pm
That's not entirely correct. Enchantment focus doesn't just reduce the cost of your enchantments, it allows you to put more properties on an item before reaching the god-save cutoff.
Source please.

PinataPlethora
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Re: Class dip for getting GSF enchantment

Post by PinataPlethora » Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:19 am

JediMindTrix wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:52 am
Source please.
Without going into example calculations, the enchantment system has a hard cap of 10k gp. That's where godsaves stop. If the final spell focus modified value of your item comes out under 10k gp, you can save, and may have a higher chance of success if you're not in the 5% window. Having focus feats modifies the added value of each additional enchantment, allowing you to squeeze in more or better properties reliably.

EDIT: I thought this post had been lost with the last forum explosion: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1930&p=17095&hilit ... ent#p17095

It's not a complete explanation, but should give you a sense of how the system works, and why ESF: Enchantment is so good.

NegInfinity
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Re: Class dip for getting GSF enchantment

Post by NegInfinity » Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:08 am

PinataPlethora wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:19 am
JediMindTrix wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:52 am
Source please.
Without going into example calculations, the enchantment system has a hard cap of 10k gp. That's where godsaves stop. If the final spell focus modified value of your item comes out under 10k gp, you can save, and may have a higher chance of success if you're not in the 5% window. Having focus feats modifies the added value of each additional enchantment, allowing you to squeeze in more or better properties reliably.

EDIT: I thought this post had been lost with the last forum explosion: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1930&p=17095&hilit ... ent#p17095

It's not a complete explanation, but should give you a sense of how the system works, and why ESF: Enchantment is so good.
The linked post doesn't explain whether spell focus adjusts final value of the item in any way.

I.e. whether +1 Str gauntlet made by ESF would cost less than +1 STR gauntled made by a random person with no spell focus.

This requires testing, but I'd assume it doesn't affect item value, and cost of both gauntlets (the one visible in item description) will be the same.

in which case ESF will simply allow you to potentially squeeze one last stronger enchantment compared to GSF, but that's it.

So you should be able to make most of the stuff you can with ESF using GSF.

Basically... if yo uhave an item worth 6k, with GSF you'll be able to put ONE 5000 gp enchantment with GSF and 6153 gp enchantment with ESF, BUT if as soon as item worth crosses over 10gp you won't be able to enchant it further with either of them.

PinataPlethora
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Re: Class dip for getting GSF enchantment

Post by PinataPlethora » Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:47 pm

You're totally right. Ignore me.

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