Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

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RedGiant
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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by RedGiant » Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:05 am

As a point of order, this "hidden damage" term is completely misleading. It is an advertised function of imbues. I think the class is fine currently, though I feel the pain of those who built with certain expectations.

Right now, you are still extremely squishy if you get dispelled (there are more ways than ever to do this as PCs btw) and most spellswords have some significantly sub-par saves. Yes, damage and AC are good, but if you start reducing these the class will go from still somewhat attractive to pariah status fairly quickly.
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Baron Saturday
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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by Baron Saturday » Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:33 am

I seem to recall (though I can't source this atthe moment) that when the subject of imbuing from a forbidden school via wands/scrolls came up, the answer was generally, "This is okay for now, but it might change in the future."
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Drak
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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by Drak » Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:37 am

Nitro wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:47 am
Drak wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:10 am
TimeAdept wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:17 pm
You should have considered that before banning the only spell school with access to negative energy, then.
Being a function of the game, why would I?
Exploiting what is plainly an exploit can't really be defended as "a function of the game" can it? In this case we have a spell school that is clearly listed as "prohibited" or "Forbidden" that you should be entirely unable to cast any spells from, even via scrolls/wands/potions. So being able to imbue with that school is very obviously unintended behavior, and basing a build around that is bound to come crumbling down when the bug is fixed.
Could you find where it says that it is an exploit?

Sab1
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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by Sab1 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:01 am

I agree made no sense that one can imbue from a forbidden school, but it's hardly an exploit since the devs allowed it.

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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by flower » Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:40 am

In the wake of continuus nerfs to SS it had to be clear to anyone who would spend a thought over it, that it is an obvious thing to be hit by next nerf.

All other classes / paths having -prohibited/forbidden school of magic cannot cast it even from scrolls. I know that once Kirito wrote he left it possible, for a time being, but most people really gave it a quirk of eye brow...it was weird and awknard situation someone could use prohibited spells to make imbue with them.


And the complaint over negative imbue cannot stand as you get all other imbues availeble. The choice you have done when creating your SS, with all respect, you have done in order to mine out maximum from your path. You knew well that school is prohibited to you but still you picked it to minimalise impact of prohibited school while still getting to use the strongest imbue. You tried to maximise your power in terms of mechanic and now, after nerf, it simple backfired on you. However as i wrote before, you still have all other imbues availeble, thus, your character is not ruined, and your complaint, is at least, pointless.

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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by TimeAdept » Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:15 am

Drak wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:37 am
Nitro wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:47 am
Drak wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:10 am


Being a function of the game, why would I?
Exploiting what is plainly an exploit can't really be defended as "a function of the game" can it? In this case we have a spell school that is clearly listed as "prohibited" or "Forbidden" that you should be entirely unable to cast any spells from, even via scrolls/wands/potions. So being able to imbue with that school is very obviously unintended behavior, and basing a build around that is bound to come crumbling down when the bug is fixed.
Could you find where it says that it is an exploit?
"But the rules didn't say I COULDN'T do it!" is the biggest display of "I'm not touching you neener neener" ever, and is in really bad form to do. It's plain for anyone to see, both thematically, mechanically, and in the spirit of the game and systems that forbidding a magic should prevent you from doing anything with that magic school.

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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by Drak » Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:09 am

TimeAdept wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:15 am
Drak wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:37 am
Nitro wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:47 am


Exploiting what is plainly an exploit can't really be defended as "a function of the game" can it? In this case we have a spell school that is clearly listed as "prohibited" or "Forbidden" that you should be entirely unable to cast any spells from, even via scrolls/wands/potions. So being able to imbue with that school is very obviously unintended behavior, and basing a build around that is bound to come crumbling down when the bug is fixed.
Could you find where it says that it is an exploit?
"But the rules didn't say I COULDN'T do it!" is the biggest display of "I'm not touching you neener neener" ever, and is in really bad form to do. It's plain for anyone to see, both thematically, mechanically, and in the spirit of the game and systems that forbidding a magic should prevent you from doing anything with that magic school.
Funny you should say that, being that it isn't the case at all. It was intended. So maybe before you make assumptions, you should do some homework yourself instead of trying to prove me wrong. Just saying. So my "bad form" isn't bad at all, really. But hey, to each their own I guess.

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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by Drak » Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:10 am

flower wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:40 am
And the complaint over negative imbue cannot stand as you get all other imbues availeble. The choice you have done when creating your SS, with all respect, you have done in order to mine out maximum from your path. You knew well that school is prohibited to you but still you picked it to minimalise impact of prohibited school while still getting to use the strongest imbue. You tried to maximise your power in terms of mechanic and now, after nerf, it simple backfired on you. However as i wrote before, you still have all other imbues availeble, thus, your character is not ruined, and your complaint, is at least, pointless.
If you think its pointless, well then that is your thought. Sorry for playing the game the way I see fit, and not the way you see fit. Playing by the rules and using what was intended to be, isn't abusing any system.

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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by Xarge VI » Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:08 am

I don't think anyone is abusing the system in this issue. But I the change makes perfect sense. Boy am I glad thought the same back when I made my SS as I wanted leech sword as one of her defining weapons.

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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by Nitro » Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:30 am

Drak wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:09 am
Funny you should say that, being that it isn't the case at all. It was intended. So maybe before you make assumptions, you should do some homework yourself instead of trying to prove me wrong. Just saying. So my "bad form" isn't bad at all, really. But hey, to each their own I guess.
On the flip side then, could you point out where it says it was intended? The only post I could dredge up about the subject didn't have any developer chiming in is just a group of players speculating about which school to ban, and whether it was worth risking exploiting being able to imbue from the forbidden school to pick necromancy as forbidden or not.

If a dev at some point said it was intended behavior, then fair beans it was in poor taste to then remove it without warning. But I doubt this is the case as I went and dug through Kirito's posted messages back to the first spellsword thread without any mention from him on this subject.

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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by flower » Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:12 pm

Drak wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:10 am
flower wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:40 am
And the complaint over negative imbue cannot stand as you get all other imbues availeble. The choice you have done when creating your SS, with all respect, you have done in order to mine out maximum from your path. You knew well that school is prohibited to you but still you picked it to minimalise impact of prohibited school while still getting to use the strongest imbue. You tried to maximise your power in terms of mechanic and now, after nerf, it simple backfired on you. However as i wrote before, you still have all other imbues availeble, thus, your character is not ruined, and your complaint, is at least, pointless.
If you think its pointless, well then that is your thought. Sorry for playing the game the way I see fit, and not the way you see fit. Playing by the rules and using what was intended to be, isn't abusing any system.
Play the game in way you wish for, i really dont care. All i say is you have gone for forbidden necromancy to limite penalty (by prohibited school) thinking you can get around by imbueing from scrolls. It is not against rules. It was not an exploit either. But it was yours and yours decision alone to push maximum power from a path which was known as totally out of linie at that linie. Now, that decision backfired at you, and you complain WHILE it does not limit your character at all, leaving you to enjoy all other imbues and finally pressing onto SS what -probihited- school was meant to: a penalty, a downside of SS, to pick selection of spells being unable to cast. You haven't lost anything in terms of class, you just dropped from overpowered shelve into lower one, more into linie with anyone else on the server, and this hardly can be called ruining your gameplay.

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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by JediMindTrix » Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:17 pm

Guys, Kirito really did say on these forums in one of the 'nerf spellswords' threads that it was intentional Imbue's could be used from a prohibited school.

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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by Drak » Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:34 pm

flower wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:12 pm
Drak wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:10 am
flower wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:40 am
And the complaint over negative imbue cannot stand as you get all other imbues availeble. The choice you have done when creating your SS, with all respect, you have done in order to mine out maximum from your path. You knew well that school is prohibited to you but still you picked it to minimalise impact of prohibited school while still getting to use the strongest imbue. You tried to maximise your power in terms of mechanic and now, after nerf, it simple backfired on you. However as i wrote before, you still have all other imbues availeble, thus, your character is not ruined, and your complaint, is at least, pointless.
If you think its pointless, well then that is your thought. Sorry for playing the game the way I see fit, and not the way you see fit. Playing by the rules and using what was intended to be, isn't abusing any system.
Play the game in way you wish for, i really dont care. All i say is you have gone for forbidden necromancy to limite penalty (by prohibited school) thinking you can get around by imbueing from scrolls. It is not against rules. It was not an exploit either. But it was yours and yours decision alone to push maximum power from a path which was known as totally out of linie at that linie. Now, that decision backfired at you, and you complain WHILE it does not limit your character at all, leaving you to enjoy all other imbues and finally pressing onto SS what -probihited- school was meant to: a penalty, a downside of SS, to pick selection of spells being unable to cast. You haven't lost anything in terms of class, you just dropped from overpowered shelve into lower one, more into linie with anyone else on the server, and this hardly can be called ruining your gameplay.
Sure thing bud.

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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by yellowcateyes » Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:00 pm

Rebuilds are only appropriate when a character has been so affected by a change that they cannot function properly or level up due to it. One example is the PDK update that changed the PrC's primary stat.

Spellswords with necromancy as a barred school are still quite functional, with a variety of available imbues and fully working class perks. They are certainly less powerful and versatile than they used to be, but that does not rise to the level of warranting a rebuild.

Ultimately, it is the decision of the dev team when to offer rebuilds. It is doubtful any will be offered in this case.

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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by sad_zav » Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:01 pm

I played a spellsword that I made necro forbidden and I never once used a necro imbue.

And I did just fine.

You'll be okay. You'll all be okay.

(Still salty about the loss of int damage, tho)
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Formerly played Mel Aran, Antoine Moreau, and Zanril.

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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by Old Soul » Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:51 pm

I think there's some confusion. If you chose to bar necromancy, you still couldn't cast necromancy spells. You would slot a necromancy spell and then use it on your weapon and you would get the neg. imbue. If that did not work and you had to use a necromancy scroll or wand to imbue, then I definitely think that's a red flag. But that's just not the case. The post I recall reading said this mechanic was justified by the designer because you weren't casting the spell, rather you were imbuing your weapon. Now I agree, that's not perfect justification and it makes more sense that if you forbid a school it should prevent you from doing anything with that school. But there are issues even there, a spellsword can forbid enchantment and still receive the basin bonuses from enchantment spell focuses. Sure, that's slightly different and i'm definitely not suggesting that spellswords who bar enchantment shouldn't be allowed to use the basin.

As for feedback, after the nerf I think the choice of which school to forbid is strongly in favor of choosing to forbid enchantment. I think a potential solution could be to add Power Word Kill as a spell for negative imbue. Then the tradeoff becomes choosing to forbid necromancy, being able to use the dominate spells / mass haste / a breachable prot. from spells but not being able to use the negative imbue until level 17 and by using a limited 9th level spell slot - versus - choosing to forbid enchantment, being able to use neg. energy burst / horrid wilting / an unbreachable clarity but having neg. imbue through the early and mid levels and only using a lvl 7 spell slot.

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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by Twily » Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:26 pm

Since people have mentioned Kirito said various things, I went digging into his entire post history since spellswords were released in Aug 02, 2017. There was absolutely no record I could find of Kirito stating imbues from barred schools should work.
It's quite possible I missed something since the post search only shows previews, but I tried to click on nearly every post that visibly had more information to read in the thread. I spent a solid hour looking through every spellsword related post he made, but if you want to do it yourself, it's pages 1 to 22 of Kirito's post history.

Regarding nerfs:
Kirito wrote:Mar 02, 2018 - discipline bonus will end up being tied to being pure
Kirito wrote:Jan 28, 2018- For what it's worth, the imbue effects will be limited to X per round (probably once per flurry?) When I get some spare time
Feb 07, 2018 - Bearing in mind that Monks will not benefit from the on hit imbue effect triggering on every APR soon(tm)
Feb 18, 2018 - The long awaited Spellsword imbue tweaks are heading to the server soon. The on hit effects should trigger 1/flurry This is tracked separately for each effect. so dual welding can have effects from 4 different imbued, but can't double up on two.

Regarding things that might still be changed:
Kirito wrote:(showing that Essence Stacking was intended)
Jan12, 2018, Regarding Essence/Imbue stacking - What the above says(Apply essence first then imbue your weapon.). Issue should go away when everything is migrated to EE
Sep 08, 2017 - I've no way to stop essence stripping imbue damage currently
Kirito wrote:Dec 30, 2017 - Under review:
Imbue DC
Imbue damage (dropping to be like magic)
Could have been misunderstood:
Kirito wrote:Sep 05, 2017- Hmm, that's an interesting idea... I like it... The spells(referring to epic spells) are selectable at the moment, they'll just fail to cast.... and that's easy to get them allowable only to imbue.

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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by The1Kobra » Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:37 pm

From my experiences with my spellsword post-nerf, I think that even with the nerfs, he's still my strongest PC. Quite frankly, spellswords as they were before were completely overpowered. While mine is no longer ZOMG OP, he's still quite good at what he does. The imbues still add a nice touch, and quite a lot of damage output. They also get EMA so will get good AC too. When I did the calculations they get 55+ easy even on a STR build, even higher for a dex build. Lets not forget that even without epic spells, they still get a full compliment of offensive wizard spells. Even non-INT focused builds can toss IGMs, mords, or if they get ESF enchantment or Transmutation, some DC stuff too.

The only thing I wish was that there was an equivalent path for a sorcerer version rather than a wizard version. Though if one were made, it would have to handle the inevitable OP potential of divine might/shield splash builds... Still, I'd love to play a sorc based variant.

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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by Iceborn » Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:02 pm

[[ICE'S MANDATORY SPELLSWORD OPINION GOES HERE]]

...


Actually, just a thought or two:
1) Spellswords needed to be nerfed
2) Dual wield has 0 synergy with spellsword atm. That shouldn't be the case.
Honestly I wish I had creative control because I'd grab this class, grind it to the ground and remake it from the ashes.
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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by Nitro » Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:04 pm

Iceborn wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:02 pm
2) Dual wield has 0 synergy with spellsword atm. That shouldn't be the case.
Isn't that what the original vision of the class was though? A 1-handed duelist using a mix of martial and magic? Seems like they've hit that target pretty neatly right now.

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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by yellowcateyes » Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:54 pm

Iceborn wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:02 pm
1) Spellswords needed to be nerfed
2) Dual wield has 0 synergy with spellsword atm. That shouldn't be the case.
Honestly I wish I had creative control because I'd grab this class, grind it to the ground and remake it from the ashes.
Any class that adds additional damage properties to its weapon has built-in synergy with dual-wielding, I feel.

That said, how would you have designed spellsword if you could rebuild it from scratch?

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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by ReverentBlade » Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:49 am

Spellswords are strong, but every goblin mage or two-bit caster can turn them into chumps. Its not a free easy mode, and the ones that geared INT are hurting. Time consuming and expensive to re-gear.

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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by RedGiant » Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:52 am

I think synergizing the class with dual wield while mechanically attractive makes zero RP sense. Spellswords, as a matter of course, need to cast spells with somatic components. The current set-up is true to the flavor of DnD.

Also, I do somewhat question the bit where we talk how spellswords needed a nerf because "they still get the full compliment of offensive wizard spells." We have an entire thread about how mostly garbage these are right now, short of the many great summoning options which spellswords obviously lack.

I feel we have nerfed spellsword right up to the cliff. Its still a tenable class, but any further and I think we're past the tipping point.
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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by Disciprine Come From Within » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:03 am

So, I've run a spellsword to 17 so far and I've found the class to be a blast to play. You get all the fun casting options and a further cookie to damage that does seem overpowered (especially health stealing), but there are a few things about the class that either seem better than it is, or generally is overestimated. The shield AC is a great example. It's so unattractive I've run with a great axe because the minimal AC gain isn't worth it and I could just multi-class into something to let me equip a shield and get better AC.

The strongest power of the class I've seen is the flexibility in setting up several weapons with imbue types and using them in battle. But, I've only really had a use for Fire, Negative Energy, and Sonic so far. The others I know have their uses, but either aren't really going to make a big difference in damage over time (Acid), help for enemies that are already weak and are going to die fast (Electric), or has a use that really only seems to be more useful when you get double imbue or PvP (Cold/Magic). The thing that does bum me is that Int is a stat of minimums. You take what you know you'll need (19-20) and then you won't take any more. It's similar to the Battle Cleric types in that way but easily overpowers them due to the ridiculous damage boosting the class gets.

There is something to be feared with dispels, but anyone worth their salt can adapt. You have wands, potions, and scrolls to make up for what gets removed and plenty of options to make fights last longer. Saving Throws are kind of an issue when they aren't from magic, and HP is bardtastic, but it's still nothing that really makes the class have any major problems, except when you're in a fight where you know you're going to get hit just as much as the person you are hitting. The class is adaptable and that's half the fun and the major reason it's in a realm of being overpowered. Prepared right for the situation, not much is going to last against a spellsword.

The thing I find difficult with the class is what nerfs you could do without making the class unattractive. Adaptability is only fun when you're rewarded for using it. When options dwindle, then things become less clever. And spellswords can be very clever in a good player's hands and can also be very powerful in the hands of someone who just wants to cast buffs and then hit things. The thing I admire about the class is it always finds a role in a party and doesn't tend to overshadow anyone that is generally better. It has the Jack of All Trades flair to it without being too weak in those aspects that the "Master of None" feature stands to be a problem.

But, that's where the overpowered nature of the class comes out in competitive PvP. Apart from the Discipline issue by not being a class skill, it's so solid that you don't want to multi-class much. I wouldn't say building one is feat starved, but it isn't as easy to get all the feats you want as compared to some other class types. It's basically a better bard and that does bum me out a little.

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Re: Spellsword Changes 6/12/18

Post by Peppermint » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:32 am

There was no reason to gear INT. Assuming you took 19 INT base, then the very most damage you'd gain from gearing INT is +2--and that's if we're being exceedingly generous and assuming you didn't focus in transmutation. In short, gearing for INT was barely better than gearing at all.

As for dual wield synergy, bear in mind that dual wielding tends to favor classes that receive bonus on hit damage (e.g. rogue sneak attack and ranger bane of enemies). Though I'd argue that they're far too feat-starved for it to be an optimal choice, spellswords fall squarely into this category.

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