Subdual takes 50 RL mins to clear?

An area to facilitate free-form feedback on systems (in-game or out) related to Arelith.

Moderator: Forum Moderators

Gods_Kill_People
Posts: 568
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:59 am

Subdual takes 50 RL mins to clear?

Post by Gods_Kill_People » Fri May 18, 2018 1:10 am

While I could understand maybe 20 mins tops....almost an hour is overkill, can this be toned back...seriously, also lasts through PvP which is extremely harsh.

User avatar
Durvayas
Posts: 1764
Joined: Sun May 31, 2015 6:20 am

Re: Subdual takes 50 RL mins to clear?

Post by Durvayas » Fri May 18, 2018 1:38 pm

While I'm in agreement it should be toned back a bit. It lasts as long as it does to allow lengthy RP after subdual rather than functioning like a cheap knockdown wherein the subdued character is able to fight and attack their subdue-er immediately after getting back up.

Basically, its how it is because the average player can't be trusted not to cheese horribly after being subdued, and the debuff makes running away difficult(usually by encumbering the subdued PC), and a second round of PvP virtually impossible.

User avatar
DM Titania
Dungeon Master
Dungeon Master
Posts: 1546
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:44 pm
Location: The Seeliecourt singing with Tinkerbell

Re: Subdual takes 50 RL mins to clear?

Post by DM Titania » Fri May 18, 2018 1:57 pm

Subdual really is an alternative conclusion to PvP rather than retreat or death. Like death, you are weakened, but did not perish, allowing for a continuation of capture, or seeking recovery from your injuries from a healer.

Halving the time down to 30 minutes couldn't hurt though.
Please don't feed my sister.

User avatar
Durvayas
Posts: 1764
Joined: Sun May 31, 2015 6:20 am

Re: Subdual takes 50 RL mins to clear?

Post by Durvayas » Fri May 18, 2018 2:17 pm

DM Titania wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 1:57 pm
Subdual really is an alternative conclusion to PvP rather than retreat or death. Like death, you are weakened, but did not perish, allowing for a continuation of capture, or seeking recovery from your injuries from a healer.

Halving the time down to 30 minutes couldn't hurt though.
Its a shame that it is so rarely used, since trying to subdue someone is limited to a small spread of specific weapons(virtually none of which are on the 'optimal' list which so many PCs are built around), which makes it situational(and its use unlikely) at best, and makes actually winning the fight harder due to the AB penalty. People would generally rather kill someone and win to raise them later, than try to take them alive and make winning harder by fighting with an inferior weapon at a lower AB than normal.

Simply put, the system isn't an attractive option. It may make RP sense to use it, but mechanically its a terrible option to take, and loathe as I am to say it, this server is rife with powerbuilds, and only on a powerbuild specifically designed with subdual in mind, is it a good idea to even consider using against another one.

User avatar
cptcuddlepants
Posts: 423
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:52 pm
Location: ruining the server

Re: Subdual takes 50 RL mins to clear?

Post by cptcuddlepants » Fri May 18, 2018 2:34 pm

I love that the subdual system exists and kind of wish it was the default PVP option. Promote reasons for defeating someone in PVP and then continuing roleplay afterwards, rather than penalizing them for taking an option that’s not kill and move on. Right now it’s just easier to kill them and leave the roleplay at “and then they died, the end” - especially once you consider that most people will either need to burn an expensive scroll or find an altar or a cleric.
When the going gets tough, the tough hide under the table.

Get Jad's portrait here!

User avatar
Iceborn
Posts: 2713
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2015 2:31 am
Location: Dancing on the line between sarcasm and irony

Re: Subdual takes 50 RL mins to clear?

Post by Iceborn » Fri May 18, 2018 5:46 pm

This is definitely not the intended behavior of Subdual that I remember.
Subdual lasted not 50 RL minutes, but 50 SECONDS.
Misc Changes, with the Feats and Skills sublinks.
Available races
Spell Changes
Class Mechanics
Command Guide

Take a look before asking your questions!

Nekonecro
Posts: 208
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:52 pm

Re: Subdual takes 50 RL mins to clear?

Post by Nekonecro » Fri May 18, 2018 7:52 pm

Yeah that subdual you suffered recently DD was only a minute.

User avatar
Ebonstar
Posts: 644
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:17 pm
Location: you may not see me but i see you

Re: Subdual takes 50 RL mins to clear?

Post by Ebonstar » Sat May 19, 2018 12:30 am

50 seconds is not long enough 20- 30 minutes is fine
Yes I can sign

Gods_Kill_People
Posts: 568
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:59 am

Re: Subdual takes 50 RL mins to clear?

Post by Gods_Kill_People » Sat May 19, 2018 12:31 am

Ebonstar wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 12:30 am
50 seconds is not long enough 20- 30 minutes is fine
I dont mind 5-10 mins....I really dont...even 12 mins so its ICly 2 hrs long, more then plenty to do the rp and move the person.

User avatar
-XXX-
Posts: 413
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:49 am

Re: Subdual takes 50 RL mins to clear?

Post by -XXX- » Sat May 19, 2018 7:19 am

Durvayas wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 1:38 pm
Basically, its how it is because the average player can't be trusted not to cheese horribly after being subdued
Doesn't prevent them from castng greater log out until the effects wear off

Nitro
Posts: 1704
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:04 pm

Re: Subdual takes 50 RL mins to clear?

Post by Nitro » Sat May 19, 2018 10:47 am

-XXX- wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 7:19 am
Durvayas wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 1:38 pm
Basically, its how it is because the average player can't be trusted not to cheese horribly after being subdued
Doesn't prevent them from castng greater log out until the effects wear off
As is their right to. No one can force anyone to engage in capture RP if they don't want to.

User avatar
Iceborn
Posts: 2713
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2015 2:31 am
Location: Dancing on the line between sarcasm and irony

Re: Subdual takes 50 RL mins to clear?

Post by Iceborn » Sat May 19, 2018 1:44 pm

From my very fair point of view, subdual should work like this:


All the "chance" factors of death are removed. It's either do or don't.
Once subdued, the character has a minute-long disable.
If a rope is employed, the duration is extended to 30 minutes.
The lasso/rope does not leave the character inventory once used (it's assumed it's just a spare or some length of it). At any time, the capturing character can remove the 30-minutes disable by using the rope again in the same character.
At ANY point during this disable, the character may write -unrelent to expire.

If people want to CHEESE out of subdual, let them. There's no point in forcing RP down somebody's throat, specially if they don't care for it. If somebody, as a player, cannot handle defeat, warranted or otherwise, then that's their problem, and to a very personal level, I don't see any reason to bother putting up much effort to write a story with somebody that is without the inclination to, you know, actually RP.

I'm the first person to complain about characters that think with their AB score and apply it as a method to build a story, but subdual is mostly a RP tool, and everybody involved is in their right to handle the situation as they feel narratively inclined, for good or ill.
Misc Changes, with the Feats and Skills sublinks.
Available races
Spell Changes
Class Mechanics
Command Guide

Take a look before asking your questions!

TimeAdept
Posts: 728
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:02 am

Re: Subdual takes 50 RL mins to clear?

Post by TimeAdept » Sun May 20, 2018 1:40 am

Nitro wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 10:47 am
-XXX- wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 7:19 am
Durvayas wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 1:38 pm
Basically, its how it is because the average player can't be trusted not to cheese horribly after being subdued
Doesn't prevent them from castng greater log out until the effects wear off
As is their right to. No one can force anyone to engage in capture RP if they don't want to.
there is this thing called "consequences" and generally speaking we are mature ppl and expected to accept them for the course of our actions

TimeAdept
Posts: 728
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:02 am

Re: Subdual takes 50 RL mins to clear?

Post by TimeAdept » Sun May 20, 2018 1:41 am

PS: Let Subdual work with every weapon and make Dirty Fighting not only negate the penalty but make it not reduce you to 1 attack so it's actually viable to use

thank you

User avatar
Cortex
Posts: 3418
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:12 pm

Re: Subdual takes 50 RL mins to clear?

Post by Cortex » Sun May 20, 2018 3:44 am

You don't need Dirty Fighting active, having the feat already should remove the penalty.
Scurvy wrote:This is a fine stance to have, but a little misplaced in a mechanics feedback thread, don'cha think?
EVERYONE I DONT LIKE IS A CYRICIST

Nitro
Posts: 1704
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:04 pm

Re: Subdual takes 50 RL mins to clear?

Post by Nitro » Sun May 20, 2018 3:36 pm

TimeAdept wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 1:40 am
there is this thing called "consequences" and generally speaking we are mature ppl and expected to accept them for the course of our actions
Sure, still doesn't mean anyone can force anyone else to engage in capture RP if they don't want to. Some people just don't like interacting with some other people, and would rather not do it after a heated PvP engagement. I'd say not engaging to cool off rather than be acerbic and toxic is the more mature thing to do in such a case.

TimeAdept
Posts: 728
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:02 am

Re: Subdual takes 50 RL mins to clear?

Post by TimeAdept » Sun May 20, 2018 6:06 pm

If you don't want to interact with other people, why are you playing multiplayer?

If losing makes you acerbic and toxic and unable to interact with people IC, then you need to re-evaluate how you approach situations.

Alt-F4 is not an acceptable approach to RP that does not break rules.

User avatar
Cortex
Posts: 3418
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:12 pm

Re: Subdual takes 50 RL mins to clear?

Post by Cortex » Sun May 20, 2018 6:30 pm

TimeAdept wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 6:06 pm
If you don't want to interact with other people, why are you playing multiplayer?

If losing makes you acerbic and toxic and unable to interact with people IC, then you need to re-evaluate how you approach situations.

Alt-F4 is not an acceptable approach to RP that does not break rules.

well thats how it is

If you don't like someone and they interact with you, you can't just ignore them. If they PvP you and you lose, you get to stay dead if you want.
Scurvy wrote:This is a fine stance to have, but a little misplaced in a mechanics feedback thread, don'cha think?
EVERYONE I DONT LIKE IS A CYRICIST

TimeAdept
Posts: 728
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:02 am

Re: Subdual takes 50 RL mins to clear?

Post by TimeAdept » Sun May 20, 2018 6:58 pm

Staying dead is different than "at-f4", one implies you're acting within the bounds of the world, the other says to me "I don't like what happening so I take my ball and go home".

Nitro
Posts: 1704
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:04 pm

Re: Subdual takes 50 RL mins to clear?

Post by Nitro » Sun May 20, 2018 7:19 pm

This is admittedly a moot point unless you get revived against your wish after hitting -unrelent

User avatar
Durvayas
Posts: 1764
Joined: Sun May 31, 2015 6:20 am

Re: Subdual takes 50 RL mins to clear?

Post by Durvayas » Sun May 20, 2018 10:49 pm

Nitro wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 7:19 pm
This is admittedly a moot point unless you get revived against your wish after hitting -unrelent
At which point if you made it clear you don't want a raise and they raised you anyways, you screenshot, and then log out, taking the time to fill out a report to send to the DMs.

User avatar
Iceborn
Posts: 2713
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2015 2:31 am
Location: Dancing on the line between sarcasm and irony

Re: Subdual takes 50 RL mins to clear?

Post by Iceborn » Mon May 21, 2018 1:29 am

You guys are seeing the worst cases scenarios here.

I want to believe that the server is composed of... mostly sensible adults, and we have the endlessly useful ability of talking with the other players to ensure that everybody has fun. Wisdom comes in the shape of simply finding resolutions that don't aggravate the players, but the characters.

Yes, everybody is free to choose who do they want to interact with, and yes! Consequences matter. Yes, flatly leaving the game is not a choice, but neither is going in a 'I don't wanna' tantrum. If you have a problem with another player or what they are doing, talking it in a sensible, direct tone and voicing why this matters to you is essential.

BY THE SAME PRINCIPLES that we have to trust the other player to be mature enough to play without dadda DM on their shoulder, we have to believe that we can trust them with being part of our stories and playing their parts, as heroes, villains, antagonists, rivals, or whatever archetype they are filling. If you see a player that cannot handle being part of a story, or that literally just plays when they are on the winning side, then that's a player I'm not interested to play with, and yet I'm perfectly willing to go through the same process below.

Talk.
If there's not a resolution? Then you get to exercise your right of walking away.
If Consequences have to matter, then make them matter to be done with the problem. And if that is not enough just get a DM and OOC it henceforth because that's not your problem anymore by miles.
Misc Changes, with the Feats and Skills sublinks.
Available races
Spell Changes
Class Mechanics
Command Guide

Take a look before asking your questions!

User avatar
Cortex
Posts: 3418
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:12 pm

Re: Subdual takes 50 RL mins to clear?

Post by Cortex » Mon May 21, 2018 2:26 am

Iceborn wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 1:29 am
You guys are seeing the worst cases scenarios here.

I want to believe that the server is composed of... mostly sensible adults
HAH
Scurvy wrote:This is a fine stance to have, but a little misplaced in a mechanics feedback thread, don'cha think?
EVERYONE I DONT LIKE IS A CYRICIST

User avatar
Iceborn
Posts: 2713
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2015 2:31 am
Location: Dancing on the line between sarcasm and irony

Re: Subdual takes 50 RL mins to clear?

Post by Iceborn » Mon May 21, 2018 9:24 am

You'd be surprised how different everything looks like when you take the glasses of cynicism off, Cortex. Perhaps you should give it a try :P?
Misc Changes, with the Feats and Skills sublinks.
Available races
Spell Changes
Class Mechanics
Command Guide

Take a look before asking your questions!

User avatar
Cortex
Posts: 3418
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:12 pm

Re: Subdual takes 50 RL mins to clear?

Post by Cortex » Mon May 21, 2018 12:50 pm

anyone who knows me knows im grossly optimistic
Scurvy wrote:This is a fine stance to have, but a little misplaced in a mechanics feedback thread, don'cha think?
EVERYONE I DONT LIKE IS A CYRICIST

Post Reply