First Time Poster but I have 340+ hours of playtime in arelith. I actually registered a forum account just so I can post this. Been maining a monk so I was really excited for the rework but...
THOUGHTS ABOUT MONK REWORK SO FAR
After testing the rework on PGCC and reading the document and visualizing the roadmap they have on the rework for monk, I sincerely hope that this isn’t the finalization of the rework. The rework doesn’t seem to be making Monk a class that’s rewarding for being pure and even seems to run off from its fundamentals of what a monk is. It doesn't seem to be treated in the same vein as how they reworked paladin or the custom creation of Warlock. These two classes are properly rewarded for their progression in being pure. If you check the Discord Build Compendium, Paladin and Warlock are minimum at 26 level because If you put any less than that, they lose too much potency but this rework of Monk doesn’t seem to have an interest in making it a class that can stand on its own like those two latter classes if you wanna go pure or at least 80% pure. In fact, it seems to emphasize more on making Monk into a supplement or secondary class for other classes to benefit and empower. You can still dip like 3 level but now you can actual get more benefits from getting 11 or 16 and won't lose much potency. Just look at the new discipline feats:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0
Majority of the new feats from Spiritual Discipline and Mind Discipline are of no use for a pure martial monk(Unless you wanna abuse the spiritual feats for prayers and godsaves). If these were intended, then that just reinforced the point of making Monk a supplement class because since when has a class got so many feats that also benefits other classes?
[ I know that this is still W.I.P and there’s probably some of these new feats hasn’t been introduced with their tiers but it’s still alarming to see most of these feats benefit other classes more than monk itself]
SPIRITUAL DISCIPLINE
I’ll be honest, all of these new spiritual feats are pretty broken if synergized. It’s not only broken for monks but for all classes, especially divine caster classes.
Amongst the entirety of the new monk feats for this discipline, I spotted a particularly glaring issue on one of the spiritual discipline feats which is Spirit Shield that replaces Diamond Soul. When I read the tier mastery, I found that it was the most blatant feat that rewards other classes than the Monk itself.
Now let’s go through the feat description-
Spirit Shield:
The soul is the shield against more than simple blows, let those who warp reality and draw upon the arcane be found wanting against the anchor of thine soul.
Spell Resistance scales at 10 + 1/Monk level SR, cap at 26
Spirit Disc Practitioner: Cap increased to 32
Spirit Disc Adept: Scaling Increased to 2 SR per monk level
Spirit Disc Master: Cap increased to 36, access to epic spell resistance feats that each of them further increases the SR cap by +2.
Novice or base feat gives you 10+1/monk level SR cap at 26.
If you a have get spirit practitioner and then you get the usual cap of 32.
Then when you read the adept tier, you might scratch your head and reread it twice.
Now the SR increases by 2 per monk level. That means a level 11 monk with a spiritual adept tier can already get 32 caps… Why do this? Oh I know why, because it’s good for multiclassing. I wonder which class would benefit the most from this and I found it to be Warpriest Cleric.
I mean why stop there, get another five levels of monks and achieve a Master tier. With 16 level in monks, you can get 7 monk bonus feats which is enough to get these following:
Hymn
Meridian Flow: Yin
Prayer
Serendipity
Spirit Shield
Mantra
Reincarnation[ Or you can take worship]
As a Warpriest Cleric, you get Turn Undead and Divine Smite so you only need 3 more feats that are under the spiritual discipline to achieve the master tier.
Now as a level 16 Monk/14 Warpriest Cleric, your SR cap is now 36 and you can get epic spell resistance on epic level[Maybe you wanna get three of these feats and up to 42] and all the beneficial spirituals feats[ he can pray twice for heals or buffs in a quicker interval and lesser cost from hymn, prayer and mantra. He can rest twice from meditation. He has twice the godsave from reincarnation or if he takes worship, he can pray anywhere for piety if he worships gods that don’t have aspects of war and death. He has serendipity of CC removal.] and you get to cast up to level 7 cleric spells and weapon specialization at 12 level of cleric.
If a pure monk wants to get a master tier spirit shield from ascension it needs to sacrifice twelve more feats or if he go balance, then he sacrifices six more feats to get an adept tier or if you prioritise spirit tier adept before getting the balance of discipline, you need at least 9. Nine or six feats that could have been in body discipline and martial discipline that I discovered that if you have less than 9 in any of the two, you’re effectively cripple as a martial pure monk.
How is this fair? Innate spell resistance only appeared in two classes in Arelith: Monk and Earthkin Defender. Now, if they release Spirit Shield as it is, any divine caster class that has enough spiritual discipline feats can get 32 innate SR and still get CL from master or adept tier Meridian Yin and a whole slew of abilities from the spiritual feats that really is good for all classes but especially divine casters. Oh don’t forget, if you level Monk in the 1-20 level range- the only class that has all the primary saving throws- you can get 7 on will, reflex and fortitude plus 3 will save and fear save for 11 level monks and a level 16 can get 10 on will, reflex and fortitude plus 4 will save and fear save.
Why does the majority of the new rework monk feats from Spiritual Discipline benefit other classes greatly?
[ You might say- “actually, the example you gave of 16 monk/14 cleric is technically a monk- not a secondary class because that’s a 55%/45% in composition. On surface level, that’s true but the feats that those monks level take are in no way of providing an equal benefit to the class itself but instead have more benefit for the secondary class. This is an instance where the Primary Class functioned as ‘secondary class’ for the actual secondary class.]
MIND DISCIPLINE
I don’t know what to say about Mind discipline because there’s not much to say since it’s just like spiritual discipline- the new monk feats on that discipline seem to benefit arcane caster, INT characters and trade skills with the exception of mental fortress [even that is a stretch since getting dmg from physic and sonic is rare]. For a pure monk, this discipline isn’t worth putting more than 3 feats if you go balance or really not worth putting at all if you go ascension.
BODY DISCIPLINE
Only body discipline can technically be said to benefit pure monks but two of the four new feats from body discipline are kinda weird which are Stance Equipoise and Flesh of Steel. Not much to say here either. I have made a personal theorycrafting build of these two stance equipoise and flesh of steel and surprise surprise- Pure Monk really sucks having build with these two in mind but you know who benefits from this? Multiclassing with divine casters.[ Unless stance of equipoise can’t stack with other biteback shields but I saw in discord where a DM made such a build and apparently for now it does stack.]
MARTIAL DISCIPLINE
The Martial Discipline is really more beneficial to any martial classes other than Monk itself.
Let’s say you dip 11 levels in monk as a level 14/5 fighter/WM who takes a naginata or quarterstaff or nodachi as weapon focus. With 5 bonus feats from these levels, you can get feats that you usually can’t get or the new monk feats. The moment you take Monk at level 1 to level 20, you already get full BAB and now you have a flurry of blows which makes you attack 5 times in a round[ Even if they nerfed it to make it unable to be taken, there are still other monks feat just as good]. Since you’re a dex build and now a monk(The only martial class that has tumble as class skill) you can spend your skills on tumble to 30 and get 6 ac, and to get more damage and defence, you can just get Evasion, Improve Evasion, the weapon Technique and spirit shield which gives you a 22 Innate SR or anything else on the monk feats that benefit martial class.
So in terms of benefits, who gets it more? A full level 30 Armed Monk or a level 14fighter/5WM/11 monk?[ I find this variation to be the most potent but for any other martial builds than this- just as long as you have 11 class in monks, you stand to benefit a lot]
See how this benefits more to other Martial Classes than the class itself? Maybe there's gonna be a workaround so people who can’t exploit this but that would just completely kill the multiclassing on the martial side.
CONCLUSION
I’m quite worked up about this because Monk is my favorite class in every DND games, pillars of eternity and pathfinder games I played. Let me post several description of monk in these game I played:
This is from NWN wiki:
Monks are versatile warriors skilled at fighting without weapons or armor. Good-aligned monks serve as protectors of the people, while evil monks make ideal spies and assassins. Though they don't cast spells, monks channel a subtle energy, called ki. This energy allows them to perform amazing feats, such as healing themselves, catching arrows in flight, and dodging blows with lightning speed. Their mundane and ki-based abilities grow with experience, granting them more power over themselves and their environment. Monks suffer unique penalties to their abilities if they wear armor, as doing so violates their rigid oaths. Monks wearing armor lose their wisdom and level based armor class bonuses, their movement speed, and their additional unarmed attacks per round.
This is from Pathfinder wiki:
For the truly exemplary, martial skill transcends the battlefield — it is a lifestyle, a doctrine, a state of mind. These warrior-artists search out methods of battle beyond swords and shields, finding weapons within themselves just as capable of crippling or killing as any blade. These monks (so called since they adhere to ancient philosophies and strict martial disciplines) elevate their bodies to become weapons of war, from battle-minded ascetics to self-taught brawlers. Monks tread the path of discipline, and those with the will to endure that path discover within themselves not what they are, but what they are meant to be.
This is from Pillars of Eternity Wiki:
Monks are resilient fighters, capable of ignoring damage or even channeling their damage into powering their abilities. They have an array of effects to bolster the effect of their melee attacks, protect the monk from afflictions, or turn the tables on attackers. Most monk Abilities are powered by Wounds, but some simply have Per Encounter or Per Rest use.
Monks belong to a variety of fighting orders that have sprung up in Ixamitl and the Eastern Reach over the past few centuries. While many monastic orders can trace their teachings to the Enduring Founder, Tletac, individual orders vary greatly in their focus, morality, and ethics. Common folk respect the incredible discipline of monks but see them as an odd, unpredictable bunch who may not be entirely sane. Even mercenaries and other adventurers aren't sure what to make of them.
The point is Monks are meant to be a front-line martial class based on the Shaolin Monks where they focus on tempering their body to utmost limit and in terms of spirituality, this forum thread best describes the difference between monk, cleric and druid regarding their spirituality.
https://web.archive.org/web/20101013013 ... php?t=9076
but the rework apparently misinterpreted the class as ascetic hermit monks the like of European and middle east judging from the introduction of spirituals and mind feats. I can at least understand this but the thing that made me really upset is that unless the epic levels benefits are actually not fully fleshed out and there’s more to it, you actually benefit more from multiclassing instead of equal benefits from being a pure monk versus multiclassing.
I already tried making a full pure unarmed monk on PGCC and it falls really short against the current monk or against any other pure classes.
So if you wanna best result for an unarmed monk? You go for 16 monks and 14 warpriest cleric.
You wanna best result for an armed monk? You go for 11 monks, 14 fighters and 5 WM.
I really hope this rework [Especially the fact that you can now get 32 innate SR just by getting 11 level of adept tier monk] can be remedied and overall better fit the thematic concept of what actually is a monk class. Also why is uncanny dodge and especially Circle Kick not in any of the four disciplines? Especially when the circle kick isn’t getting rework!?[ Improved unarmed strike also needs fixing since this is an actual feat fee for brawler and pugilist in which you can actually not get Attack of Opportunity from just wearing gloves and bracers.]
