Best 3-man PvP composition?

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BobTheSkull
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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by BobTheSkull » Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:27 pm

JubJub wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:00 am
The best 3 man team also depends a lot on what one is fighting. Using feats for extra sr is great, but you lose something against melee.
Very true, any specific character or group can be specially countered. What those vulnerabilities are, are important to note.

What 3 person group would you build to generally be the most competent PvP group?

Archnon
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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by Archnon » Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:08 pm

How has no on included a level 30 bard. I feel like the curse song, fully ramped up, can open the door for some failed spells saves from an associated caster.

Ragir
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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by Ragir » Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:39 pm

Archnon wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:08 pm
How has no on included a level 30 bard. I feel like the curse song, fully ramped up, can open the door for some failed spells saves from an associated caster.
Bard is the most underrated class in the history of NWN. No one really gets just how powerful this class is.

Orian_666
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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by Orian_666 » Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:55 am

Full 30 Bard is a waste though, underrated class sure but if you want the ultimate buffer/debuffer (on Arelith anyway) you want a 20/10 Bard/PDK.

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Tarkus the dog
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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by Tarkus the dog » Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:22 am

Orian_666 wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:55 am
Full 30 Bard is a waste though, underrated class sure but if you want the ultimate buffer/debuffer (on Arelith anyway) you want a 20/10 Bard/PDK.
i am absolutely livid that this is the general belief

every time i see "more than 20 bard is waste" post i want to kill myself unironically ( not that i do not want to do that already )

partially im really happy with it, because it misleads people into playing crappy half-baked bard builds

on the other hand, the high bard's potential will never be realized

kalopsia played a pure bard recently, and in their head it was a "not that serious of a build"

let's just say i absolutely miss kalopsia right now, partially because of their amazing ability to feed me roleplay content and enjoyment in general

and partially because holy shit 70 ac weaponmasters

let me put it this way

for the past 3 years i have been playing nothing but weaponmasters ( more or less, i dont count random builds i got to 26 and rolled ).

if someone told me "if you trash your keen scimitar, but instead get a pure bard best friend for a year" that thing would be sleeping with fishes faster than you can say "high curse song is bad"

and then when socks brings up the information hoarding issue people give him the funny looks

so yeah i hard agree, taking more than 20 levels in bard is absolute waste :}

BobTheSkull
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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by BobTheSkull » Sat Aug 17, 2019 8:34 pm

Tarkus the dog wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:22 am
and then when socks brings up the information hoarding issue people give him the funny looks
So you've thrown the gauntlet, now throw the build. Post a build that supports the viability of pure 30 bard.

Orian_666
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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by Orian_666 » Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:44 pm

BobTheSkull wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 8:34 pm
Tarkus the dog wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:22 am
and then when socks brings up the information hoarding issue people give him the funny looks
So you've thrown the gauntlet, now throw the build. Post a build that supports the viability of pure 30 bard.
There isn't one, lol.

The best you can hope to achieve (as a benefit of 30 over 20) is +2 AC from Bard Song, -2 from Curse Song, but afaik getting that perform cap on Arelith isn't possible so at best you'll get +1 and -1 difference respectfully, all the other buffs and debuffs from BS and CS don't change from 20 to 30, well apart from the health and skill bonuses which don't really make a difference.

Where as if you stop at 20 and take 10 PDK levels you can get AB and Damage buffs, AOE heals and restores, and a variation of other benefits depending on what Knight path you take (notably an extra +15% DI on one of your allies for the proposed 3 man team, which is really nice)

But most notably is that you can debuff up to another -6AC on top of the -5 from curse song, -4 if you don't take Vanguard. Along with DI debuffs, a full on AOE immobilize for 1 round (unsavable), among many other things.

Think of it this way, imagine you have a Bard/PDK and some big heavy melee hitters in your 3 man group and you're going up against a team with a monk, or two or three, which is likely, you can debuff one down 11AC, the others down 9AC, and make them flat footed for a round, with their low HP that's potentially death for them right there!! All the while you've buffed your own team up to their eyeballs with benefits.

BobTheSkull
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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by BobTheSkull » Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:45 pm

It was an extended rhetorical question, my understanding is more than 16 bard on arelith is a bit wasted when it comes to song. Is the remaining to 20 that notable?

Though you make a very coming argument about pdk, that is a significant buff/debuff build. What are your thoughts on the possibility of throwing master Harper into that? 15Bard/5harper/10PDK. Same build but unlimited song.

Though with 20 levels of bard you can keep the song buff up permanently, but you could debuff with curse song more.

Obviously Harper comes with a limiting alignment/role play type.

Orian_666
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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by Orian_666 » Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:26 am

BobTheSkull wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:45 pm
It was an extended rhetorical question, my understanding is more than 16 bard on arelith is a bit wasted when it comes to song. Is the remaining to 20 that notable?

Though you make a very coming argument about pdk, that is a significant buff/debuff build. What are your thoughts on the possibility of throwing master Harper into that? 15Bard/5harper/10PDK. Same build but unlimited song.

Though with 20 levels of bard you can keep the song buff up permanently, but you could debuff with curse song more.

Obviously Harper comes with a limiting alignment/role play type.
Yea there is a good argument for 15, honestly the only main difference is +1/-1 AC
That 15/5/10 build would actually work absolutely fine as far as I can see. The infinite song makes up for its shorter duration, it gives you 2 extra feats (worth taking in epic levels), and it also gives you focus feats in Perform for free so if one would plan to take them originally for the sake of their songs then they now get them for free, essentially granting even more feat room.
The only reason I originally said 20/10 Bard PDK was simply for the song duration to be honest. But considering the topic is a 3v3 PvP bout then that's likely not as important.
If you wanted a more combat oriented one then you could also go 15/5/10 Bard/Fighter/PDK. Get the extra AB, EWS, and again some extra feats to benefit your fighting capability. There's a decent bit of flexibility all in all........... Just not full 30 Bard is all :lol:

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Drowble Oh Seven
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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by Drowble Oh Seven » Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:30 am

Orian_666 wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:44 pm
(...), but afaik getting that perform cap on Arelith isn't possible
Currently playing a pure bard. It's possible to get the level 30 bard song. It hurts, it takes scrounging just about every perform-boosting feat and bit of gear you can get your shaking, song-addicted hands on. But it's possible.

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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by Ork » Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:42 am

There was a post not long ago that Tarkus went at lengths to defend his adoration of the L30 bard. The debuff to skills on top of the party buff means that your run of the mill WM suddenly can knockdown weakened AC & Disc foes with ease. Your enemy wants to use WoF or Mords? Whoops, they now have negative UMD. The level 30 bard is a disabler that while lackluster on paper ..really shines in PvP.

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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by Aila » Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:47 am

Ork wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:42 am
There was a post not long ago that Tarkus went at lengths to defend his adoration of the L30 bard. The debuff to skills on top of the party buff means that your run of the mill WM suddenly can knockdown weakened AC & Disc foes with ease. Your enemy wants to use WoF or Mords? Whoops, they now have negative UMD. The level 30 bard is a disabler that while lackluster on paper ..really shines in PvP.
This is what I have noticed about a lot of people here. They go by what the "paper" says and not how it plays in game.

Level 30 bard is pretty amazing actually.

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Aniel
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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by Aniel » Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:50 am

Orian_666 wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:44 pm
but afaik getting that perform cap on Arelith isn't possible
The only person I know of who played a pure 30 bard had +115 perform passively and did very, very well for themselves in parties. Tremendous songs, tons of haste castings, etc. A real treat to have around. And that isn't touching on how devastating curse song becomes in PvP with the massive penalties to skills.

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Tarkus the dog
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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by Tarkus the dog » Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:08 am

Just so we're clear, and since 100 perform is pain in the Snuggybear to get, you're fine if you take 3 levels of blackguard/paladin for the sake of personal survival. My mentality is "I don't care", basically, just pressing the bard song/curse song button as a level 20-30 bard is more than enough. What you can do on top of that as a bard is another topic of it's own. A bard and two weaponmasters are going to put 3 monks in a dumpster. And so to answer your question for real, the best comp is bard and as many weaponmasters as you can muster simply because of the kill pressure. If you can get a cleric on top of that just to be 'safe', then you're golden.

BobTheSkull
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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by BobTheSkull » Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:08 pm

Did anyone have a viable PvP shadow dancer build? I'm intrigued, but do not see it.

TimeAdept
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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by TimeAdept » Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:03 am

19 rogue 6 fighter 5 SD or 20 monk 5 rogue 5 SD

high SD is PvP bait because the class' main functionality and source of sneak attack doesn't work in PvP like it does in PvE, so the best way to use SD in PvP form is just dipping for HIPS

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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by Orian_666 » Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:23 am

TimeAdept wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:03 am
19 rogue 6 fighter 5 SD or 20 monk 5 rogue 5 SD

high SD is PvP bait because the class' main functionality and source of sneak attack doesn't work in PvP like it does in PvE, so the best way to use SD in PvP form is just dipping for HIPS
The claim was "3 pure shadow dancers", so it'd be safe to assume they meant a shadow dancer heavy build (16 levels as standard).
Though at the same time I think they weren't being serious :)

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Tarkus the dog
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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by Tarkus the dog » Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:40 pm

Orian_666 wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:23 am
TimeAdept wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:03 am
19 rogue 6 fighter 5 SD or 20 monk 5 rogue 5 SD

high SD is PvP bait because the class' main functionality and source of sneak attack doesn't work in PvP like it does in PvE, so the best way to use SD in PvP form is just dipping for HIPS
The claim was "3 pure shadow dancers", so it'd be safe to assume they meant a shadow dancer heavy build (16 levels as standard).
Though at the same time I think they weren't being serious :)
I was trolling. Shadowdancers are prestige. They can't have 30 levels. They are also crap in PvP. That's the joke.

BobTheSkull
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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by BobTheSkull » Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:15 pm

Tarkus the dog wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:40 pm
Orian_666 wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:23 am
I was trolling. Shadowdancers are prestige. They can't have 30 levels. They are also crap in PvP. That's the joke.
I figured, but hey, there is always more about this game that I haven't figured out yet!

malcolm_mountainslayer
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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:43 am

I do think a higher level hard be it pure or 23 bard/7wm, whatever. Is key to a composition. Especially since the community meta is super dependent on umd. Forget making their discipline checks lower, you will wreck their ability to use any wands or scrolls. And with your skill boost, people will have a lot harder time knocking you down or even sneaking up on you since lasting inspiration is also available to an epic bard. (Even solo you are a threat with the simple drink of truestrike and knockdown and or having umd advantage)

So for party compositions id go pure monk, almost or is pure bard, and the pure ab damage ranger 5 /AA 19/fighter 6.

The bard focuses on buffs debuffs while shutting out the buffing and debuffing of most characters while the archer Rips through defenses (especially with bardic bonuses) and stacks called shots and the monk zips around with bardic bonuses being untouchable to both attacks and magic with his own many attacks hitting a lot more. Could even spend whole time with improved combat expertise using heal kits on the archer if some kind of weird range situation commenced.

My next pick would be
The other route is a mage, a cleric and a druid. Having umd taken away would be no biggy. 3 EDK. Cleric and druid can still be mighty fighters. Cleric can heal like crazy and mage is a serious threat to be ignoring over the cleric. Druid is obvously just powerfull.

BobTheSkull
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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by BobTheSkull » Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:32 pm

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:43 am
Druid is obvously just powerfull.
What is the best counter and/or way to beat a pure 30 druid and/or a 26/4 totem monk druid?

Wrips
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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by Wrips » Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:57 pm

Clerics do it well.

BobTheSkull
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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by BobTheSkull » Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:54 pm

Wrips wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:57 pm
Clerics do it well.
How? Aside from fishing for 1s on implossion?

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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:04 am

BobTheSkull wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:32 pm
malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:43 am
Druid is obvously just powerfull.
What is the best counter and/or way to beat a pure 30 druid and/or a 26/4 totem monk druid?
Well druids in general can be handled a lot easier after debuffing them. The pure 30 druid, though considered to be a stronger than the vastly inferior totem druid monk, lacks discipline and is vulnerable to knockdown via true strike potion and, or debuff. Druids also cant debuff you while staying polymorphed. I'd honestly ask someone more PvP experienced. Asking druids themselves as they know what they lose to

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Re: Best 3-man PvP composition?

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:07 am

BobTheSkull wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:54 pm
Wrips wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:57 pm
Clerics do it well.
How? Aside from fishing for 1s on implossion?
You got tools to neutralize summons, debuff them and keep yourself healed up. If they ever polymorph, a pure druid could be knockdown bait.

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