Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

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Cerk Evermoore
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Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by Cerk Evermoore » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:16 am

I think they heal too much HPS, they should feature possibly a 5 second cooldown between uses and I think druids should not be able to use them in mono elemental forum (ESPECIALLY FIRE!). Last time we talked about this a lot of people got very upset so if we could try to talk about this without vitriol that would be appreciated.

Are they broken? Are they not? I suppose that's why this forum exists, so let's provide some of that feedback.

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Hazard
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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by Hazard » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:28 am

I think a cool down on potions is reasonable. I hate the -pray and chug meta.

Don't think druids drinking a potion is a problem if there's a cool down. Breach the fire elemental shield, or knock them down (they have low discipline).

Wouldn't mind seeing a nerf to the amount of healing those potions do too.

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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by The Rambling Midget » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:44 am

Cerk Evermoore wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:16 am
Are they broken? Are they not? I suppose that's why this forum exists, so let's provide some of that feedback.
Heal Potions aren't broken, Druids are. I've never seen a Heal Potion turn a PvP fight around. PvE, sure, but that doesn't matter. The best Heal Potions can do is mitigate damage, or allow the losing party to stay alive long enough to escape. Victory will still go to the better build and the better player.
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Cerk Evermoore
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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by Cerk Evermoore » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:00 am

Okay here is my heal potion story. 5 People show up fully buffed to try and kill me. So I summoned edk and sat in a hallway face tanking them drinking potions meanwhile my edk killed them all and because of the nature of the hallway they could not properly focus their combined dps to out damage the potion.


Healing potions allow people to not die in a fight. Which in turn allows them to tank more dps or possibly survive longer, which definately depending on a player can make / break a fight.

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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by Gobbo Champion Inc » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:23 am

Monolith forms and heal potions are definately a thing to look at.

That said the story of the dragon and corridor is not a story of heal potions being too powerful, its a story of 5 players not knowing how to deal with summons in pvp. If not 1 of the 5 players thought to mord/wof it away, then they deserved to lose that fight.

Players being bad at the mechanical aspects of the game, and getting wrecked is not an argument for, or against the relative strenght of an item, class feature, etc.

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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by Durvayas » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:46 am

Gobbo Champion Inc wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:23 am
Monolith forms and heal potions are definately a thing to look at.

That said the story of the dragon and corridor is not a story of heal potions being too powerful, its a story of 5 players not knowing how to deal with summons in pvp. If not 1 of the 5 players thought to mord/wof it away, then they deserved to lose that fight.

Players being bad at the mechanical aspects of the game, and getting wrecked is not an argument for, or against the relative strenght of an item, class feature, etc.
Also a story about using the terrain to your advantage.
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Royal Blood
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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by Royal Blood » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:58 am

Heal potions are no doubt essential for PVP.

A small timer might not be the worst idea? But I guess you'd have to ask like why? What are heal potions allowing that damages the quality of the game? I think being able to extend your life is probably a good thing! And since they are not restricted anyone can take advantage of this if they want.

If I use a greater restoration scroll I can heal once and have to wait like 3ms. Going into expertise with heal potions is pretty great then too. I'm not sure if it's over powered? Though in a close encounter it could simply come down to who has the biggest stash of potions.

I'm not sure that's bad though. The most prepared player has an advantage and those potions are decently expensive in shops.

I guess one has to ask like what problem are we trying to solve by nerfing heal potions? I don't think they are overpowered. Maybe just increase the materials to make them to make it a larger gold sink?
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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by xanrael » Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:47 am

This may not be the place but its something that's always kind of been weird to me on not-cheap consumables in PvP.

Looking at a pure cost standpoint the one that burns through healing potions has likely lost more time and/or gold* than the one sent to the Fugue. It's not something where only heal potions are in that position, expensive scrolls etc can fit that bill too.

It's just part of the culture/meta that I find odd where victory can often cost more than defeat, especially as often victory doesn't progress the RP forward.

*Hitting someone right before/after they visit the bank or encountering people out farming aside.

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Tarkus the dog
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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by Tarkus the dog » Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:52 am

Probably do something about builds that can one shot, and then we can talk healing potions.

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Royal Blood
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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by Royal Blood » Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:53 am

My perspective is the cost of gold is irrelevant if your character survives an important PVP battle. Winning might cost more but that's kind of the point. The one who invested the gold into being prepared got the reward for it.

I mean like heal potions are maybe 2k per potion and a greater restoration scroll, Word of faith, and disjunction maybe about 3k per scroll.

I do not think the cost is a big hurdle just about anyone who even does light grinding can have those assets for combat.
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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by xanrael » Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:05 am

It's more that death really doesn't have an associated cost to it. Someone might not mind spending 10K to dramatically improve their chance of success but it would be too "harsh" if an epic level respawning took 10K out of the bank for "resurrection services".

One side might not be motivated to expend resources while the other is and you get a landslide fight. Putting up an actual fight has a bigger cost than death and that's just strange to me.

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Royal Blood
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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by Royal Blood » Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:17 am

Idk dying is sorta a big deal if you're giving it the proper RP ramifications that dying has.

If this wasn't an RP server I would agree. Any character who just died for economic reasons I would maybe question that they are not giving proper RP credit to something that should be significant. Assuming RP wise we value death as something that's more than just a mechanical respawn I'd figure death is a far higher cost than any amount of gold.
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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by xanrael » Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:36 am

I don't really disagree with anything you said, just maybe have a different view on the population.

Do you think the majority of people give death the proper RP ramifications? Both post death and leading up to the fight (stonewalling a non-PvP resolution even at a heavy disadvantage because death doesn't really matter etc)?

I'd say no to both, but I don't pretend to have anything close to a full picture.

Healing Potions are something that anyone can use, you don't even need UMD. Just usually when I seen it and other expensive consumables being used in PvP or even PvE, it tends to be the same people while others seem content to die. And mind you I'm someone that makes heavy use of consumables for PvP and even PvE, so I'm not saying using them is bad in any way.

You may have had a different experience and yours could be closer to the truth.

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Royal Blood
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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by Royal Blood » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:02 am

I think since what a good death is or like respecting it is largely up to Interpretation it'd be difficult to mechanically change things to favor what is considered ideal and what's not. The only option if that were the case is to increase the mechanical consequence of death which would punish everyone and maybe only reinforce players disregarding death consequences. Like if you died you lose 10% of your bank account. Then maybe the guy dying and the winner would be more equal assuming the winner even used gear. I blew 70k worth of potions and scrolls and still lost a duel before! And this wouldn't make anyone a more in-depth role player it just levies a larger penalty for failing.

So that would be why my stance would be that if the heal potion is to be changed it shouldn't be changed on the basis of cost of victory/Death
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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by TimeAdept » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:50 am

Cerk Evermoore wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:00 am
Okay here is my heal potion story. 5 People show up fully buffed to try and kill me. So I summoned edk and sat in a hallway face tanking them drinking potions meanwhile my edk killed them all and because of the nature of the hallway they could not properly focus their combined dps to out damage the potion.


Healing potions allow people to not die in a fight. Which in turn allows them to tank more dps or possibly survive longer, which definately depending on a player can make / break a fight.
This speaks more to the low skill of the 5 people you fought not the strength of a heal potion, tbh.

Chair
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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by Chair » Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:48 am

Well, G-resto had a cooldown put on it. Pray was nerfed. As well as the removal of the heal skill from the enchanting table. There has been an effort to limit some of the absurd levels of healing on the server. I don't really see why Healing potions shouldn't be any different and receive a cooldown, or a nerf to the health restored.

The Greater Good
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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by The Greater Good » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:00 am

Heal, the spell, got nerfed already. So.
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Aniel
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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by Aniel » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:14 pm

This is something I've thought about for some time now and is ultimately something I believe to some extent should be reevaluated. One of the things I've never liked about PvP is ultimately how fights can be boiled down to who has the most GP and who is willing to spend more on any given fight in order to win. In that sense drowning in gold and leveraging it for an advantage that takes the shape of heal potion chugging isn't very exciting nor is it enjoyable.

With that being said I'm not entirely aware on what would make it better either - perhaps imposing a cooldown similar to how clarity has one? It's certainly a healthy step towards combating a large disparity that otherwise exists and seems more appropriate than only raising the cost further, reducing the healing or effecting the actual heal spell.

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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by Irongron » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:13 pm

I'd quite like if there was simply a chance of dropping a potion when trying to drink one during combat.

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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by R0GUE » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:38 pm

Irongron wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:13 pm
I'd quite like if there was simply a chance of dropping a potion when trying to drink one during combat.
How about dropping it (or you have to at least make a save/skill check) when you get hit as a result of an AoO from using one?

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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by TimeAdept » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:05 pm

Irongron wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:13 pm
I'd quite like if there was simply a chance of dropping a potion when trying to drink one during combat.
We play literal superheroes and villains, this sort of "critical fail" doesn't make for good narrative or gameplay.

The Greater Good
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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by The Greater Good » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:14 pm

Require holding a holy symbol to cast divine magic, including divine might, shield, and turn undead. Staffs don't count.
Monte Cook wrote:The idea here is that the game just gives the rules, and players figure out the ins and outs for themselves -- players are rewarded for achieving mastery of the rules and making good choices rather than poor ones.

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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by Subutai » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:17 pm

TimeAdept wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:05 pm
Irongron wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:13 pm
I'd quite like if there was simply a chance of dropping a potion when trying to drink one during combat.
We play literal superheroes and villains, this sort of "critical fail" doesn't make for good narrative or gameplay.
This is especially true for me if there's no critical success. If rolling a 1 makes you drop a potion, rolling a 20 should mean something extra good, like automatically max out an RNG effects of a potion, or otherwise extend its duration/efficacy.

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Hazard
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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by Hazard » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:07 pm

Introduce a bladder meter per tick. If you drink too many potions your character gets locked in an awkward animation for a while and a puddle spawns beneath them. During the animation lock you can't move or take any actions, but others are free to wail on you with their weapons and spells. Any summon you had abandons you and joins the opposing team. -8 cha until you change your clothes and bathe. NPCs you walk by have a 50/50 chance between laughing and *wandering off*

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Re: Are we ready to talk about healing potions?

Post by Ork » Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:17 am

Yeah, instead of bladder..toxicity. if NWN becomes more like the witcher, you won't see me complaining.

Honestly I dislike the heal pot meta. It extends fights, and most often the person consuming them are still going down. I recall vividly a PM fight with a WM that dragged for near 15 minutes due to heal pots. I'd rather take the L.

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