Monks

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malcolm_mountainslayer
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Monks

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:04 pm

This conversation is inevitable. I don't agree with how strong some are reacting. I think having pure monks being a viable niche with High spell resist is cool. It just might be a little too viable

What i think finally convinced me was how a st based 20 monk/7 weaponmaster/ 3 rogue makes a better cookie cutter weaponmaster than a cookie weapon master with extra monkey stuff on top of that like movement speed and deflect arrows.

I think its cool that samurai jack is viable. I do not think samurai jacks should out perform cookie cutter weaponmaster in a 1 vs 1 mirror match without needing to take advantage of his other abilities like speed. (Like he will bum rrush other things better like AA or mages in addition as having better combat power and same umd flexibility of a cookie wm.

I will note that classic weapon master with truestike potion has higher potential max ab due to soft ab cap limits, but i think of we adjused ki fist bonuses slightly we can keep a lot of the coolness of new changes while not breaking the game.

Like slightly reduced bonuses when usimg a more optimal. Monk weapon like katana or qaurterstaff. Can keep full bonus for stuff like a club to let fish fighting dreams come true (clubs are also terrible). Im sure if we sat down and did the math we could figure out optimal bonuses for different monk weapons. I rather not throw the baby out with the bath water.

*edit*

Maybe instead of epic dodge monks got to use wisdom for ab at lvl 28 if we really wanted to focus on the rp perspective of pure monks. (Allowijg them to capitalize on higher dc and not be flatfooted etc)

But having to build wisdom based for lvl 28 would be silly. So maybe a significant hard stat wisdom increase at lvl 28 instead of epic dodge? This would give all builds more ac and high dc for fist monks. Would give an ascension feel too.

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Re: Monks

Post by Subutai » Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:51 pm

I recently saw a discussion on the BuildsNMechanics discord channel stating that, while NWN and Arelith PvP generally tends to be fairly rock-paper-scissors style, monks at the moment are outside of that, not really having any particularly exploitable weaknesses that the other classes have (the same is allegedly true of druids). I'll let people more knowledgeable about the ins and outs go into it, though.

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Re: Monks

Post by xanrael » Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:16 pm

I suspect that they'll be another balance pass for monks in the future.

I actually wish that Dexterity wasn't such a terrible stat for damage in general. I'd rather see something like Weapon Finesse granting 1/3, 1/4, or 1/5 your Dex modifier to melee damage if and only if you were using it to attack instead of it being baked into classes like monk. Slightly lower parry damage along with that if people are concerned about the niche build/tactic.

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Re: Monks

Post by CosmicOrderV » Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:59 pm

Won't disagree that monks may be slightly (I use the term slightly, deliberately) over-tuned, but there's an important aspect of a "STR based monk" that's not addressed. AC. Matched up against a standard WM, a STR based monk is going to get chewed out.

That's not to say all-around, there are more advantages than disadvantages, to the new monk versus the standard WM. That's where balance comes into play, and is important. Things don't have to be the same, but the over all appeal -- disadvantages versus advantages versus RP cookies -- should balance as much as feasibly possible.

STR based monk has an exploitable weakness, and it's called AC. For posterity I feel like this ought to have been mentioned before now. That is perhaps... the only weakness, though. Comparatively, the strengths do seem to out-number the weaknesses, in a way that doesn't match most other classes.

It would be cool to see more WIS based features for the class (be it soft buffs to WIS, or extra bonuses that ping off WIS).
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Re: Monks

Post by Vincent » Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:05 am

I think it's fairly obvious that a class that can push 50 spell resistance, gets epic weapon specialization, blinding speed, epic dodge and receives a host of other goodies just for pureclassing is a little (no real emphasis on the little) busted. There's a reason every other player is a monk currently, and it's not due to a sudden surge in monastic values. The class is good to extremely good in all areas and outright broken in others, there's no real downside. Also, I'm not sure if I'm just reading it wrong but it appears ki strike was buffed to turn your weapons in +5s. Enjoy a good deal of the real advantages rogues, fighters, brycers and clerics get all rolled into one class.

I see very few druids but I doubt any class that receives extremely beefy elemental forms along with a spell that just flat out summons four times the elementals of any other spell for some reason could be underpowered. I've heard rumours of druids with caches of dozens of adamantine ingots because they can just solo any epic dungeon with ease, and a brief review of the numbers and immunities they receive makes that seem entirely plausible to me.

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Re: Monks

Post by xanrael » Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:41 am

Vincent wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:05 am
Also, I'm not sure if I'm just reading it wrong but it appears ki strike was buffed to turn your weapons in +5s. Enjoy a good deal of the real advantages rogues, fighters, brycers and clerics get all rolled into one class.
Not to discount anything else you said, but it doesn't work like that. Only fists act as +5 weapons with the Ki Strike for the purposes of breaking DR, anything else will have to deal with +5 DR like anyone else. This is because the +AB is to the character, not the weapons themselves.

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Re: Monks

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:38 am

CosmicOrderV wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:59 pm
Won't disagree that monks may be slightly (I use the term slightly, deliberately) over-tuned, but there's an important aspect of a "STR based monk" that's not addressed. AC. Matched up against a standard WM, a STR based monk is going to get chewed out.

That's not to say all-around, there are more advantages than disadvantages, to the new monk versus the standard WM. That's where balance comes into play, and is important. Things don't have to be the same, but the over all appeal -- disadvantages versus advantages versus RP cookies -- should balance as much as feasibly possible.

STR based monk has an exploitable weakness, and it's called AC. For posterity I feel like this ought to have been mentioned before now. That is perhaps... the only weakness, though. Comparatively, the strengths do seem to out-number the weaknesses, in a way that doesn't match most other classes.

It would be cool to see more WIS based features for the class (be it soft buffs to WIS, or extra bonuses that ping off WIS).
A strength based prop equipped (this probably requires ridiculous enchanting effort thoguh 20 monk/7 weaponmaster/3 rogue apparently ac competes with cookie str wm. The starting attack is a little lower ab but there next attacks will be higher ab becasue its -3 instead of - 5.

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Re: Monks

Post by Tarkus the dog » Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:40 am

Think I prefer the good 'ol sonic monks over the ones we have atm.

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Re: Monks

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:44 am

Subutai wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:51 pm
I recently saw a discussion on the BuildsNMechanics discord channel stating that, while NWN and Arelith PvP generally tends to be fairly rock-paper-scissors style, monks at the moment are outside of that, not really having any particularly exploitable weaknesses that the other classes have (the same is allegedly true of druids). I'll let people more knowledgeable about the ins and outs go into it, though.
One of the things i actaully get annoyed with arelith meta is that it often removes the rock paper siccors element. Like some peoole complaining more about the SR than combat prowess of monk or not wantinf speed to ever return even if nerf does happen.

UMD is a must in all builds and apparently is the key to any skilled pvp to the point that everyone top tier pvp is having a mage battle either as a mage or a umd user. There is nothing rock paper siccors about that. Its everyone using right sprll for right situation with their own flavour (like sneak instead of good melee prowess and crits) martial tools.


But i dont want to debate our current rock siccors meta.

Just constructive criticism of how to make monk better in a balanced way and still feel different from other martial classes.

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Re: Monks

Post by Dreams » Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:16 am

Monks are ridiculously overpowered at the moment and could certainly do with tweaking.

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Re: Monks

Post by Cerk Evermoore » Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:36 am

Spell resistance seems like an easy feat to remove, but that wouldn't exactly help the struggling melee players. Perhaps if Mord's Disjunction or other SR lowering effects could lower monk SR it would make them less defensive across the board?

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Re: Monks

Post by RedGiant » Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:56 am

There is an alarmist nature to this thread that I know well, for I've used it in the past. Yet you've chosen to use your alarmism for evil (nerfs) rather than for good (cookies). Therefore, I must add the following.

1) The SR and goodies of the monk were always there, you just weren't used to seeing them because we had so few pure monks. What you aren't used to seeing is monks actually being good at combat. This is not actually a problem.

2) No one monk build does all the terrifying alarmist stuff by itself.

Your 50 SR, epic dodge, blinding speed monk doesn't have UMD...at all. Its even debatable how good they are in the anti-caster role they gave up almost all of the epic feats for, since they can't use any of the tricks necessary to disarm caster's wards, find them when they hide, or get rid of their summons.

The 20/7/3 str monk, one of the other new and suddenly "viable" monk builds, has similar problems. As some have noted, the combat performance here requires cloth armor and no shield. This leads to significant AC problems. There is also significantly substandard HP compared to your "cookie WM". If anyone has played through some of the other glass cannon choices on the server, you know these seem like a good idea in the beginning...but not so much later.

Even in the other flavors of monk that are still viable, the 25/5s, the 20/5/5s, the 20/5,3s; each permutation gives up something important, if not critical.

IMO, this update was one of the most careful, respectful updates, ruining the fewest possible number of existing builds, and taking monks off the martial scrap heap. They are good now. Some permutations even approach top shelf, but that's it.

So please, put down the torches.

Finally...

3) The proposed solution is, just give them some wisdom? Seriously? We don't need to take what we just took off the scrap heap, only to go straight on the crap heap.

The ONLY thing I would touch is some further consideration for unarmed monks, because with the dual wielding possibilities and the crappy things EE did to stunning fist (unless they fixed it?), I'm just not sure why you would go this route.
hmm wrote:
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Voted no. It was cool for a while, just like The Avengers.

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Re: Monks

Post by The Greater Good » Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:30 am

Picking up shield proficiency for the breach shield on the off chance a caster tries to fight you easy, since monks can literally get away with taking only weapon finesse, IE, and blind fight.

Summons? For what? A 30 Monk isn't getting taken down by summons.

A 30 Monk, dex, right now only really needs to take four feats (leaving 4 free on a human, so pick up toughness, shield prof, whatever else) preepic, and epic disc, maybe armor skin post epic. Dual wielding is more expensive but the monk kit literally provides everything you need otherwise, something nothing but probably warlock does. I'm not a fan of monobuilds, for one thing.

For another:
40 base SR + whatever feats you put into it. 44 is enough that your average Arelith mage will have trouble on most spells, any higher is bullying or I guess warlock protection. 2 of 6 epic feats. Say you've got three left with epic disc. Burn another on armor skin.
Still two spare. A lot of builds get this many spare feats, epic and standard?

AC: 10 base + 14 dex + 6-8 (call it six, being nice) Wis ac + 6 tumble + 6 monk + 3 armor + 3 deflect + 3 barkskin pot + 4 haste +1 Dodge boots + 1 mage armor pot + 2 armor skin.
I miss any sources?
59 ac, easily attainable with four potions (cats, eagles, mage armor, barkskin. 63 if you use a brewed barkskin pot.) Add 4? Ac with a cleric buddy. Haste is built in, of course.

AB: 20 Bab + 14 dex + 3 focuses (free) + 3 mdamask katana + 5 monk AB. If you burn one of your extras on epic prowess, 46. Hitting like, what, 46/43/40/37/34/46, right?

Damage: d10+6 spec+6 mdamask+4 essence + 1d6 temp + whatever two-handed str you can manage + 6 monk damage. Someone math out that average.

Mind immunity, epic Dodge, haste, conceal, and a self heal on cooldown, permanent (worse) speed boost.

Still got a free epic feat, too. What, precisely, do you need umd for? Breaches? Spellbae shield, gonne, shuriken, or, and this is a wild theory, walk away or run around in circles till it fades or they give up. Premo? Your fists are +5 weapons you get free spec in, and the new monk gloves have 2 Wis to help you max your stats.

EDIT: Before someone thinks I'm being hyperbolic, I pulled up test elf monk I made on the pgcc. It's an elf, so, worse stats overall, lower hp, and skill points, importantly. An autoquicken 3 trueflame blasting IGMS would take you out, idk, eventually, with the lower HP, but that can be fixed by using human. Or stealth + IKD.

Image

This is non-potioned, walking around stats. Again: worse than the human version.
Gear as follows: Those new monk robes with +1 dex enchanted on. Addy helmet. Fine elven boots. Displacer cloak. Adamantine bracers of avoidance (although the new gloves would make a smarter 'might fight mages' option), 1 con/1 wis amulet, 1 con/1 wis belt (I believe there are superior versions of both of these, for monks, in the loot right now), 1 con/1 wis ring, 1 dex/1 wis ring. No runes, no optimization, no 5%s. Loses 2 ac from no mage armor pots on the

With potions. It admittedly needs to do a few rolls but if your 30 can't afford potions, there's a -command for that, and a transmuter friend will come in real handy:


Image

Again, this version is missing AC. Pop on IE and you're looking at 70-72 AC, with minimal gearing effort. Everything I used is stupid craftable, and runes/5%s and actually putting skills on things will help immensely in other ways than pure AC and AB.

I should note! I'm not arguing against monks having some of these things. I'm certainly not arguing to remove it entirely. But maybe having to make a choice between high AB, high SR, high AC+Edodge, free weapon specs and proficiencies, mind immunity... instead of being able to damn near hit recommended and come out with a pretty strong dude.
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ReverentBlade
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Re: Monks

Post by ReverentBlade » Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:38 am

If you'll recall, I was never a fan of the changes. Gimmick STR monks are now much, much stronger, but the more traditional dex based monk that relied on her speed is even worse off, IMO

My hybrid dex monk was certainly never optimal, but she could get by by abusing speed and corner sneaking. Now I just had to retire her as entirely unplayable.

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Re: Monks

Post by Nevrus » Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:40 am

I'd like every class to be this cool

#buffpaladin
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Re: Monks

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:03 am

Nevrus wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:40 am
I'd like every class to be this cool

#buffpaladin
Agreed.

One of the things i like about pathfinder was I feel free to go pure or multiclass for non casters.

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Re: Monks

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:35 am

RedGiant wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:56 am
There is an alarmist nature to this thread that I know well, for I've used it in the past. Yet you've chosen to use your alarmism for evil (nerfs) rather than for good (cookies). Therefore, I must add the following.
Perhaps you are projecting your personal/past experience/motivations upon me.

I actaully love monks. I don't want to see them nerfed to the ground. I want some math people in here to come in and actaully calculate how much we can slightly tweak/tone them before completely crushing them with somethinf silly like SR removed after already taking their beloved speed away.

I think it was one of the git gud people pointing out the new wm monk build that actsully has GOOD ac. not having armor is countered by base dex plus 12 magic enhancement and progression monk ac (5 at 20. No shield ac? Got a wisdom bonus (we looking at plus str wis dex on bunch of items + potions).

You are right, the hp will be hurting a bit, but tje ac will not. Lets say 14 bas dex and wis and + 12 in both is 26 in both which is plus 8 ac from each stat on top of plus 4 for 20 monk levels. So 20 ac + monk robes vs 6 shield ac + 9 + 3 fullplate (18)

So even if base wisdom is only 10, their ac still can match as a str based monk weapon master.

If we use the cookie cutter weaponmaster as a bae line i feel we have a decent comparison to start tweaking monk consider the str 20monk/7wm/3rogue build having similar ac.

I want to keep most the free stuf monk gets as i feel it allows flexible rp use of multiple weapons with cool rp potential. I think giving monk things like uncanny dodge was crucial as they no longer became forced to do rogue multiclassing.

I think if ki fist was tweaked slightly and everything was left the same with epic dodge under review, it would be interesting.

Lets make something clear though. I was not suggesting only a wisdom bonus. A pure monk still gets lots of other goodies including ab and damage bonus i believe we can even adjust some of that bonus to be st lvl 28 mark as we tweak bonuses as a whole for the less pure monks even. But when i thought of replacing specifically epic dodge with hard wisdom points, i meant a significant wisdom bonus.

On one hand I want monks to be great, on the other hand i don't want armies of people playing them just for the bonuses.

And most importantly, I dont want this turning into the path of kensai where tweaks keep going back and forth to the point that the whole path becomes pointless/noumd only builds and then finally removed. I want moderate/small or even tiny reasonable tweaks, not hard nerfs that a lot have been screaming for in discord.


That being said, i really don't know how I feel about using some kind of alarmist tactician. I am a pretty blunt guy and my DnD group accuses me of being a RL paladin (which I sometimes refutr or humorously embrace).

I dont want torches raises or lowers. I want spreadsheets and math lol.

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Re: Monks

Post by RedGiant » Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:47 am

The Greater Good wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:30 am
...
The PGCC exercise really only proves my point. Yes, you can make a high AC monk...on a dex monk...just like you always could. Yes, you have made a character with several outstanding aspects. You have great AC, good AB, and a list of impressive immunities.

You also have absolutely terrible HP, mediocre to terrible damage, and borderline dumpster fortitude saves...which are arguably the most important saves. Gearing will also not fix all of these problems...because even here you would have to make choices.

I predict any number of caster variants would post successful strategies against this AC prioritized build, palemasters being the most glaringly obvious choice.
hmm wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:06 pm
Voted no. It was cool for a while, just like The Avengers.

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Re: Monks

Post by Seekeepeek » Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:07 am

i imagine there is also a lot of old monks leveling at the moment too, since no rebuilds was offering. They might give a wrong image given they already got all the good gear.

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Re: Monks

Post by Ebonstar » Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:31 am

i must be doing something way wrong with my monk then

at level 25 ive got more HP same ac and more damage and only use katanas for backup not primary
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Re: Monks

Post by Dreams » Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:57 am

Ebonstar wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:31 am
i must be doing something way wrong with my monk then
There's no wrong or right on an RP server. But there is certainly unoptimaletamales!

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Re: Monks

Post by Ebonstar » Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:28 am

them im an unoptimale supreme with guac
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Re: Monks

Post by The Greater Good » Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:59 am

Ebonstar wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:31 am
i must be doing something way wrong with my monk then

at level 25 ive got more HP same ac and more damage and only use katanas for backup not primary
I mentioned a solid fifty times that the build I posted was purposely nerfed. A human version will have more hp and skills to play with. Damage is whatever because you can afford to sit whittling or even drop into party mode and riposte stuff to death.

And a str monk will still get respectable AC. And epic Dodge. And blinding speed. Someone more patient than me, redgiant, might be willing to explain why these elements- the AC, the free offensive and defensive feats, the SR, are too much when taken together. That same person might be willing to explain more optimal gearing to you, as well. Or you could log in on the pgcc and mess around for yourself it's literally dead easy. I threw the above monk together in five minutes, there's definitely better versions.

To clarify: yes, previously high AC was possible. Edodge was possible, blinding speed, or high AB, or epic weapon spec, were all possible. But not without a sacrifice of feats, or of ability somewhere else, or multiclassing, or putting thought into what you're doing. Monk is the only class that lets you stack all of its possible benefits with such a minimal expenditure of thought or effort. If you don't understand what's wrong with having every defensive and offensive feat in the game save WM and rogue abilities slapped onto you so you can stack on SR while getting a finesse able weapon that is also a bastard sword mechanically, I just don't know what to tell you.
Monte Cook wrote:The idea here is that the game just gives the rules, and players figure out the ins and outs for themselves -- players are rewarded for achieving mastery of the rules and making good choices rather than poor ones.

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Re: Monks

Post by Shadowy Reality » Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:20 am

Can we get numbers for this new monk20/wm7/rogue3 for clarity's sake?

AB, AC, Saves, HP? I did not feel like going into the PGCC just for this and since this thread is up, I am sure someone already has them.

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Re: Monks

Post by Skald Haldi » Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:27 am

I would like to go back to the rock-paper-scissors point.

Right now, monks seems to be best or at least strong contenders against every role. Unbreakable high SR makes them great against all spell-casters. Exceptional combat makes them good/great against melee and summons. What does a monk really worry about? Assassins? Rogues? Arcane Archers? Something is wrong If gonnes are the only answer... but oh wait, monks are great against those too with their high touch AC.

What is the role of the monk?
AC Tank? Yes, I've seen viable AC 80+ monk builds. You have too.
General Fighter? Why the unbreakable SR?
Mage-Stomper? Why the free epic dodge and combat advantages?
Speedster? I miss the sonic-speed monks. I loved and hated them - only because the package they came with.
Generalist? Then they shouldn't be best at anything! (emphasis)

Personally, I dislike playing monks because you don't get many choices during build. Feats and skill options are either obvious or unnoticeable. You already get everything you need - anything else is bonus. The only way to differentiate is to dip into other classes.

Personally, I'd like to see the different roles tied to different build strategies.
Give the monk options. Make three (or more) classes where there was once only one.
Str monk gets the combat attack feats and more of them!
Dex monk gets the speed and combat defense feats and more of them!
Wis monk gets the defensive magic feats such as SR and more of them!
Pick one. Or pick two, but neither as master. Or pick three as a generalist.
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