Nerf this

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JubJub
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Re: Nerf this

Post by JubJub » Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:29 pm

CosmicOrderV wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:02 am
It sounds like you're saying Paladins need to stay as strong as they are, because otherwise, your character would start to lose too often, as you have them pick fights regularly. I'm not sure that's the right mindset here.

Also, the 'divine champion' class is locked out of Evil alignments, so that's a bust. The concept doesn't fit. I'm gonna stop derailing after this, but as has been pointed out in past threads, some of the present class concept-mechanics require tweaking.

Alas, as Tarkus has said. Nerf This.
One might say people want holy sword nerfed simpky becuase they are upset they lost to a paladin. That also isn't the right mindset.

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Re: Nerf this

Post by Jagel » Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:35 pm

EDK could have a check implemented like the one Black Blade of Disaster has.

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Re: Nerf this

Post by Shadowy Reality » Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:43 pm

Arienette,

I get what you are trying to say, and I think you missed the point of this thread.
The point here is to actually make things fairer for everyone. Me and several people have voiced our concerns regarding the huge power creep Arelith has seen. There is nothing fun in being destroyed in a single round by someone who just knows what they are doing and has an optimal meta build.

Over the years I have had my strange and bad builds. More and more I see myself gravitating for optimal and solid builds because I have been involved in PvP where I was killed from stealth while I was typing. In Arelith PvP outcome is very often defined by the first few rounds of combat, if you are not ready or prepared at that time, or if you have a less than optimal build, you don't have a chance, which is terrible, it is not what I want out of an RP server.

We want to tone things down so the variance is smaller. I see both arguments for EDK. On One hand it is a button that basically wins you a fight against average folk, much like weaponmasters do it against anyone not prepared or who makes some mistakes. On the other hand for non optimized characters it gives them a tool to be somewhat competitive.

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Re: Nerf this

Post by Kreydis » Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:48 pm

I'm going to preface this conversation with the fact that I rarely engage in any meaningful PvP let alone PvP as a whole. It happens, I hate it the vast majority of the time, and I don't care about it as a factor in this crumbling pointing fingers at each other page 4 madness.

Holy sword dispels is apparently bugged and working far more then intended. If this is this case, it needs to be fixed. I don't know. I don't care. I have literally never fought against, beside, or anywhere near a paladin in the last 6 IRL months.

EDK. Eters already suggested some spell failure chance to make it a gamble if you also want to be useful on your caster while EDK is out. Because EDK is already strong enough that pre-30 epic parties are going to have a hell of a time taking it down in any reasonable amount of time.

Because rarely do people PREP for PvP until late epics where they have the money anyways. I'm not talking basic PvE buffs or whatever, I'm talking specific scrolls to counter stuff. Mords. Time stop, the rare G-sanc scrolls. Holy avenger wands so on and so forth.

Spell failure is just that. Spell failure. It effects everyone who has it by the way Eters. Doesn't matter what class you are. You're thinking about arcane spell failure, which is really only on armor. So yes, spell failure is a good suggestion. Or a % risk chance of unsummoning your dragon. But I think 25-50% of casts failing is fair at the least.
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Re: Nerf this

Post by Arienette » Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:56 pm

Fair.

My previous NwN experience was in the early 2000s on a server called Astoria where you couldnt lvl up without a token from a DM and god help you if you wanted to take a dip for UMD. I had a lot of fun on that server.

So I get what you are saying about power creep. And i agree that more power doesnt always mean more fun. But it seems like (to me) a lot of the PvE content on Arelith is really buffed up.

Most more casual players are more PvE focused. Nerfing abilities to balance epic PvP between very talented players has an effect on these players as well. Just want to try to voice that concern, cuz most players in that category are unlike to participate in forum feedback debates.

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Re: Nerf this

Post by Kreydis » Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:59 pm

Arienette wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:56 pm
Fair.

My previous NwN experience was in the early 2000s on a server called Astoria where you couldnt lvl up without a token from a DM and god help you if you wanted to take a dip for UMD. I had a lot of fun on that server.

So I get what you are saying about power creep. And i agree that more power doesnt always mean more fun. But it seems like (to me) a lot of the PvE content on Arelith is really buffed up.

Most more casual players are more PvE focused. Nerfing abilities to balance epic PvP between very talented players has an effect on these players as well. Just want to try to voice that concern, cuz most players in that category are unlike to participate in forum feedback debates.
I wish class dipping wasn't a thing :(
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Re: Nerf this

Post by Alantar » Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:23 pm

Next topic: heal potions (counter IGMS) and -pray (counter crowd control spells), be careful with the EDK or mages can become too nerfed.

Besides, we can't forget the very high saves of many builds and the most part of the PvE content.

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Re: Nerf this

Post by Durvayas » Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:44 pm

Arienette wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:56 pm

So I get what you are saying about power creep. And i agree that more power doesnt always mean more fun. But it seems like (to me) a lot of the PvE content on Arelith is really buffed up.

Most more casual players are more PvE focused. Nerfing abilities to balance epic PvP between very talented players has an effect on these players as well. Just want to try to voice that concern, cuz most players in that category are unlike to participate in forum feedback debates.
PvE is buffed up because 'optimal' builds chew through it like it doesn't exist. Power creep on the player build side has to crawl in reverse for nerfs on the NPC side to happen.

Personally, I don't like Arelith's balance. I don't like that rats have ~20hp and 4AB and can fairly easily kill lowbies, I don't like that everyone builds maxed out for Con because optimal builds can dish out 600+ damage in a round. Its literally impossible to RP in the middle of a fight, ever, unless both sides are sitting in expertise. PvP is over in a matter of seconds. You can't shout tactics to your allies, you can't call for help, you can't emote ANYTHING, because the tempo of the fight is so fast that if you let up for a second, your PC dies.

The entire tempo of PvP, and combat across the server, should be decreased heavily. It should not be possible to rungrind through an entire dungeon in five to ten minutes. Combat instances should not last a mere 5 seconds of swinging, then looting, then moving on. Everything is overtuned across the board to the detriment of the RP environment.

Its my understanding that ages ago, part of this design decision was made because we wanted fewer mobs, but the same challenge, so mobs got a buff to compensate; But Arelith's hardware is stronger now, and with EE, Ostensibly, so too should the software be. Balance across the board should be looked at. Some things need a minor buff to bring them in line with what is already here, but I think we should stop buffing entirely. Start bringing things back down.
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Re: Nerf this

Post by MajorArcana » Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:23 pm

Alantar wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:23 pm
heal potions
Unironically, I think heal potions should have some sort of cooldown timer. I can't accurately describe in words how many times (and how frustrating it is) I've been in combat with someone who chugs up to five heal potions in a row to tank out the damage getting dealt to them.

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Re: Nerf this

Post by Astral » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:04 pm

xanrael wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:13 pm
Astral wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:59 pm
Eters wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:09 pm
I think EDK's nerf exists in that, a mage calling upon an epic dragon, should not have full ability to cast.
I like this direction. instead of nerfing the dragon, nerf the caster's ability to cast while the dragon is out.
I dont know if it's possible to code spell failure chance to divine casters but if it's possible it would be a very good addition. Once the dragon is out X% failure chance to any casting, scaling up with the dragon's power. If its impossbile to code spell failure chance to divine casting, make it a ridiculously high concentration check (again, scaling with the dragon's power).
You can cause a % spell failure to any caster. You can even make it school specific so for example have 100% evocation failure, 50% abjuration, 25% transmutation, etc.
Well, that's awesome to hear. Personally I wouldnt like to see EDK becoming BBOD because that's a too big nerf imo. but making it so all casting got between 50% to 60% chance to fail (depending on how powerful the dragon is scaling from epic caster lvls and ESF) would bring some kind of need for strategy. Which spells do I have to cast before I throw the dragon out? which spells can I neglect and use after when they might fail? etc etc. Add some spice.
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Re: Nerf this

Post by Kreydis » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:11 pm

MajorArcana wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:23 pm
Alantar wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:23 pm
heal potions
Unironically, I think heal potions should have some sort of cooldown timer. I can't accurately describe in words how many times (and how frustrating it is) I've been in combat with someone who chugs up to five heal potions in a row to tank out the damage getting dealt to them.
Before heal potions, there was heal kit spam. And after that, there's G-restore scrolls and so on and so forth.

If we make a timer on any healing, we need to make it for all non-full HP healing, it needs to be for every heal type.
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Re: Nerf this

Post by Cerk Evermoore » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:18 pm

Only problem I have with health potions over kits, is they restore way more health. Like enough that I can tank a bunch of fully buffed people completely unbuffed while my EDK murders them.

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Re: Nerf this

Post by Richørd » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:50 pm

1. Put a cooldown on heal potions.
2. Remove EDK until it has been reworked. Yes, I am serious. Having a Pocket-WM always at hand that also has Truesight, is permahasted and can knock people down (as a giant creature on top LOL to have fun if you decided to not go with one of the discipline dump cookie cutter builds out there) is simply too much and as already mentioned by the OP a "press to win" button.
3. I don't see a reason to nerf holy sword. Perhaps if it comes with a shift of power for paladins as in where they would be more inclined to take more levels because for other reasons that this one, single spell?

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Re: Nerf this

Post by Aodh Lazuli » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:01 pm

Arienette wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:58 pm
Its like there is a proving ground where a circle of really smart and talented players figure out what classes, abilities, and builds are good, bad, worthless, or OP. Some of this information makes it out to the wider player base, but not all of it.

Again, that is my impression.

Arelith is incredibly open about that. In fact, the idea of "keeping secret tech" is something that basically everyone here thinks is laughable and stupid. I've never been in a community where mechanical information is shared more freely or openly.

The people who know what they're talking about will share that information without hesitation, happily. The only requirement is that someone goes and asks for it or looks for it.
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Re: Nerf this

Post by Arienette » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:05 pm

I didnt say it was kept secret. But logically much of that infirmation wont trickle down to players who dont spend much time on Wiki/Discord/Forums.

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Re: Nerf this

Post by Aodh Lazuli » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:22 pm

Arienette wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:05 pm
I didnt say it was kept secret. But logically much of that infirmation wont trickle down to players who dont spend much time on Wiki/Discord/Forums.
... Well. No, of course knowledge doesn't magically appear in the heads of people who dno't seek it.

I, too, struggle to know what is written in books without first reading them.

But you can't really factor deliberate non-participation or laziness in seeking information, into balance discussions. You can't teach people who don't show up to class. That's definitely not the fault of the people who know stuff... And you can't really ask the game to be balanced so that ignorance = knowledge in terms of effectiveness.
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Re: Nerf this

Post by Arienette » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:37 pm

Right, but you can minimize the gap if you want to.

This is a game, not a field of study or a job.

I dont own, develop, DM or contribute to the content of this project in any way aside from patreon.

But if i was in charge, i would want to balance the playing field so that more casual players can have fun and not be steamrolled. Id rather have 200 players of various talent and dedication playing and having fun at a given time than 100 expert players.

Just like, my opinion, man.

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Re: Nerf this

Post by yellowcateyes » Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:25 pm

Without taking a position on the discussion, I will clarify a couple of things to correct the math in the discussion. First:
-XXX- wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:46 am
6 (3 abju focus feats) + 1d20 = max possible result 46
Paladins are only capable of taking two abjuration feats, as Epic Spell Focus requires 9th level spellcasting.

Second, Holy Sword was unintentionally nerfed several months back when Mord did a responsible coder thing and unified all the dispel-effect tabulations into a single function. It now follows the same bonus scaling as other dispel effects (+1 each for Spell Focus: Abjuration and Greater Spell Focus: Abjuration).

It also uses the same functions as the Dispel and the Disjunction spells, so yes it is working correctly. Alternatively, all those spells are working incorrectly. Anecdotal bad luck does not prove a bug.


With regard to the discussion itself, I will say that both spells are on the figurative watch list. Constructive feedback will be considered, however we can make no promises as to the outcome of our review or the timetable for changes.
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Re: Nerf this

Post by TroubledWaters » Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:40 pm

Paladins are already underpowered as is compared to other front-liners, given their split stats and reliance on buffs.

I think there's a really neat anti-magic niche they fill, but I also think it's lame that this role can only be played by an LG "good guy". I think that balance here might not necessarily rely only on adjustments to the class, but making the class open to more alignments so more parties can incorporate Paladins into their play.

4e and 5e open Paladins to all alignments, which is a great change in my opinion as it enables more and better stories to be told.

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Re: Nerf this

Post by Astral » Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:12 pm

yellowcateyes wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:25 pm
Holy Sword was unintentionally nerfed several months back when Mord did a responsible coder thing and unified all the dispel-effect tabulations into a single function. It now follows the same bonus scaling as other dispel effects (+1 each for Spell Focus: Abjuration and Greater Spell Focus: Abjuration).
Which means its capped at 42 at max roll vs lvl 30 mundane CL + 12 = 42.
Holy Sword can only dispel anything on a roll of 20 against lvl 30 mundanes and a roll of 17+ against lvl 27 casters without arcane defense abjuration. That's not overpowered at all. Sorry to disappoint. If something must be done to this spell, I'd say a nerf in the form of having the dispell on hit proc no more than once per round is a pretty significant nerf, if anything must be done and I wont say anything should be done at all.
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Re: Nerf this

Post by Nitro » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:43 pm

Astral wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:12 pm
Which means its capped at 42 at max roll vs lvl 30 mundane CL + 12 = 42.
Holy Sword can only dispel anything on a roll of 20 against lvl 30 mundanes and a roll of 17+ against lvl 27 casters without arcane defense abjuration. That's not overpowered at all. Sorry to disappoint. If something must be done to this spell, I'd say a nerf in the form of having the dispell on hit proc no more than once per round is a pretty significant nerf, if anything must be done and I wont say anything should be done at all.
That's 17+ on each attack. Several times per round. At that point it's not even unreasonable to fish for 20's against pure mundanes because it will happen sooner or later, it's not like you lose anything from trying it. Unlike a regular caster who has to waste time and spells trying to dispel, the paladin can just keep hitting and doing useful things. And when, inevitably, the dispel goes through the paladin pretty much wins because they are now fighting buffed against buffless.

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Re: Nerf this

Post by Skald Haldi » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:09 pm

I can't comment on EDK or all the other nonsense. However - I can speak to original point in question (Holy Swords).

Since my character tries her hardest to find paladins... I've seen all of this first hand.

I've been collecting actual lists of all the active high-level paladins on the server, I can count them by name on my fingers. At one point, my character had a note I would show to other paladins listing all of the "known" paladins - most of whom hadn't been seen on the servers for months. Paladins are so rare it's sad. The majority of "paladins" I see (like myself) have taken a dip of only three levels. If these high-level paladins are so OP, where are they?

In contrast, the few high-level paladins I have spent time with have been utterly demolished in every PVP encounter that I've witnessed. As one of them said to me (while in the Fugue). "I was just hoping to get one hit in". Nope, he got destroyed so fast, he never even touched the enemy. This character was an established level 30, fully decked out. He knew what was going to happen when PVP was coming, but he was resigned to it - because he wanted to stay in character. His AB wasn't high enough, his AC wasn't high enough, and he didn't have the summons to compete.

Regarding the other points about paladins: Divine Shield / Divine MIght. People throw those out as if they are always on. Both of them take a whole round to cast. From what I can tell, during that time you are flat-footed - and neither raise your AB. Furthermore, both are based on your CHA, meaning your other stats aren't great. In other words, these can sometimes be useful during PVE (not as great as you might think). PVP? Nearly useless. If you're taking three rounds to "divine shield, divine might, holy sword" you're already dead. Furthermore, even if you do get the chance, it's not game breaking, because you'll still have a tough time breaking a "viable" AC.

If holy sword is really as great as you say, PLEASE DON'T NERF IT! Better yet, go play a paladin!
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Re: Nerf this

Post by Mattamue » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:54 pm

Would it be possible to run something on the logs and get a deaths/cause over the last 3 months? If EDK/Holy Sword really is that powerful it'll have killed lots of players compared to other character builds, elementals, NPCs, etc... adjusted for the population of those with epic magic and paladins. I think some actual numbers behind all the arguments would help settle things.

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Re: Nerf this

Post by Shadowy Reality » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:59 pm

Skald Haldi wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:09 pm
As one of them said to me (while in the Fugue). "I was just hoping to get one hit in". Nope, he got destroyed so fast, he never even touched the enemy. This character was an established level 30, fully decked out. He knew what was going to happen when PVP was coming, but he was resigned to it - because he wanted to stay in character. His AB wasn't high enough, his AC wasn't high enough, and he didn't have the summons to compete.
This breaks my heart. PvP like that just feels terrible. It should not be possible or so easy to die that fast, unfortunately it is.
I obviously don't know the details of that encounter, and you are right in saying that Paladin does have a windup in which they are basically sitting ducks.

There are things one can do to survive that windup. Improved invisibility is the first thing you should do in almost all situations. Next is probably haste, barkskin, then Divine Shield, from there you need to decide. Either keep going for divine favor, divine might and holy sword, or just cast divine favor and go in.

I do not think it is possible that that character had no AB to hit, Paladins get +5 from divine favor, which most melees do not, if their strength is on par, they should have +5ab.

Using terrain is also very useful, just hasting and running around a corner gives you time for one more buff, or to heal if necessary, standing still for long is bad.

All in all, I don't think it should be possible to die in such a short span, unfortunately, it is. Casting your buffs in the wrong order (say start with holy sword, divine might and divine favor) while not having haste or concealment while a weapon master hits you, will almost surely lead one to die in a round or two.

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Re: Nerf this

Post by Kreydis » Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:02 pm

Skald Haldi wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:09 pm
The majority of "paladins" I see (like myself) have taken a dip of only three levels. If these high-level paladins are so OP, where are they?

Snip

If you're taking three rounds to "divine shield, divine might, holy sword" you're already dead.
first point sentence is a bad point. As established earlier, just because it's OP doesn't mean people will play it. The Ranger Monk Rogue/bard meta took a literal year from the first time I saw it, to every other character being it. Also people want to play what they want. Being restricted to LG is an actual pain. Even then, what's worse I feel is how people play LG just to have a DIP in pally, which I feel is unacceptable. But that's me.

Second, I'm 90% sure like all other abilities in the game, you can haste yourself to make it 1.5 rounds. Because each ability takes half a round then. But yes, there is windup time. Which is why I'm not really on the whole shebang of PALLY OP. I personally think there's far stronger classes out there, with obscure builds and mechanics people aren't abusing to their fullest. I mean, for the love of god. People won't even use poison if they can for some reason.
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