Nerf this

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strong yeet
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Re: Nerf this

Post by strong yeet » Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:43 am

Paladins/holy sword, druids and caster pale masters are essentially without peer (aside from a few funky rogue builds that take far more effort to gear up effectively) in terms of mechanical power. A 20/7/3 WM is nowhere near these things.

20/7/3 WM is very good at punishing the mistakes of players who do not play their characters precisely, or have a powerful build, as well as dealing a lot of damage over a lot of hits (see: running dungeons). On a roleplaying server, where the focus is on building a narrative and furthering it, there are many players who do not have a great deal of interest in the nit and grit of NWN's rather arcane mechanics and will, therefore, make a great deal of mistakes in PVP. The weaponmaster build excels in Arelith's environment not because it is particularly overtuned, but more because of the peculiarities of said environment.

It does not compare to the raw power of paladins, druids, PMs or those aforementioned rogue builds on a simply mathematical basis.

EDIT: I also want to stress that these peculiarities are fine and I don't begrudge them and they are a natural "consequence" of how the server is set up (though I don't quite like the negative connotations of the word). But WM is very good at beating up people who do not have good builds or a good handle on what buttons to press and when to press them, and pressing the wrong buttons or having a bad build is Especially Bad News versus a weaponmaster.
Last edited by strong yeet on Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

Dirac
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Re: Nerf this

Post by Dirac » Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:08 am

Tarkus the dog wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:24 am
Dispel on hit is an absolutely overtuned mechanic, with only two counterplays:
Holy Sword is the most powerful spell on the server right now in the hands of a class archetype that can get up to 57 AB.

It's not that it's over tuned, it's literally not working as intended (according to the wiki). The calculations, IMO, appear to be completely borked.

I had a Paladin dispel every single buff of my level 25 Bard with a single hit from the Holy Sword. He also dispelled every buff off a level 23 Sorcerer and a level 28 Wizard/PM a single swipe. One of which was a pre-nerf Palemaster whom got absolutely rolled by the Paladin.

I went back and did Bernoulli trial calculations and found this to be a mathematical impossibility.

I brought my findings to discord and was told that Paladins were in the works for a nerf... 4 Months later Palemasters get an emergency nerf so a certain prolific power builder could maintain his ego.

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Flip Flappers
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Re: Nerf this

Post by Flip Flappers » Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:18 am

Dirac wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:08 am
I went back and did Bernoulli trial calculations and found this to be a mathematical impossibility.

I brought my findings to discord and was told that Paladins were in the works for a nerf... 4 Months later Palemasters get an emergency nerf so a certain prolific power builder could maintain his ego.
lol bruh

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Kreydis
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Re: Nerf this

Post by Kreydis » Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:03 am

strong yeet wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:43 am
But WM is very good at beating up people who do not have good builds or a good handle on what buttons to press and when to press them, and pressing the wrong buttons or having a bad build is Especially Bad News versus a weaponmaster.
Low AC? Low HP? in Melee range and in out of timestop? DELETE
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JubJub
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Re: Nerf this

Post by JubJub » Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:30 am

Tarkus the dog wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:10 pm
JubJub wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:06 pm
The key to holy sword is "On Hit", with all the ways classes can get 60+ac hitting isn't always so easy. As pointed out paladins are tough if they have enough time to buff and prepare which in my experience with pvp is rare.
Paladins can get up to 55 AB. Buffing up isn't an issue either, divine shield allows you to tank up - or you can easily run and buff.

EDIT: If this is too much for you to handle, do the following:

Drink a haste potion, cast holy sword, time stop, click on your target - It will likely lose every single buff.
So you assume the bad guy is doing nothing as the paladin is buffing? Bad guys have timestop too, and summons etc. I mean you stil lhave to drink haste, cast divine sheild, cast holy sword, cast dvine favor etc. Thats alot of casting while your enemy is doing nothing? I would say to get an idea of how powerful class is, see how many of that class is about. PM's, druids, BG's and WM"S seem real popular. Not a lot of paladins about.

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CosmicOrderV
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Re: Nerf this

Post by CosmicOrderV » Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:04 am

Maybe once paladins are finally not locked by LG alignment, we'll see more around :mrgreen:
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Re: Nerf this

Post by Mr_Rieper » Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:53 am

CosmicOrderV wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:04 am
Maybe once paladins are finally not locked by LG alignment, we'll see more around :mrgreen:
They should stay LG only. If you don't understand why, or think that LG is a stupid alignment - you shouldn't be playing a paladin. There is a good reason why paladins of even lawful neutral or chaotic good gods are always LG. Abiding by a strict code of honour and functioning as both the sword and shield of societies is just part of how paladins are supposed to function. Do people take the LG alignment so they can drop a few levels in paladin, then never roleplay it at all? Yes.

But it wasn't too long ago that every single druid was LN for a similar reason. The class isn't at fault for players not wanting to roleplay their character sheets. If you want a Divine Champion, then CoT is right there for you. Ask for that to be reworked instead. Paladins are not meant to be morally ambiguous or rebellious, that is the worst precedent you could set.

As for Holy Sword, I like the ability but I'll agree that it's ridiculous that it can dispel more than one spell per hit. EDK is potent, but if you're threatening a mage and he drops one on your head, can you really be surprised? There are IC consequences for things, even resorting to summoning a huge dragon to stomp just one person to death in the middle of town. Druids being used outside the dragonshaper build is good news, I'm glad.
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Seekeepeek
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Re: Nerf this

Post by Seekeepeek » Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:34 am

Having recently played a paladin... i don't really see a reason for a nerf with the current ratio between evil and good.
i rarely go out in epic locations without butting heads with necromancers, warlocks, blackguards and outcasts. i tend to give people the choice to avoid pvp if they desire by making them remove their undeads or what not. but iam pretty sure if i'd get killed on a daily basic if my paladin was a pushover with a strict moral code. it's like falling on a sword willingly and that ain't much fun.

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Re: Nerf this

Post by CosmicOrderV » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:02 am

It sounds like you're saying Paladins need to stay as strong as they are, because otherwise, your character would start to lose too often, as you have them pick fights regularly. I'm not sure that's the right mindset here.

Also, the 'divine champion' class is locked out of Evil alignments, so that's a bust. The concept doesn't fit. I'm gonna stop derailing after this, but as has been pointed out in past threads, some of the present class concept-mechanics require tweaking.

Alas, as Tarkus has said. Nerf This.
Aodh Lazuli wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:22 pm
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-XXX-
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Re: Nerf this

Post by -XXX- » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:46 am

The real issue here seems to be the ability of a paladin character to ACTUALLY dispel those "undispellable" wards applied by 30 CL "mundane" characters.

It's 20 (dispeller's capped CL) + 6 (3 abju focus feats) + 1d20 = max possible result 46

vs.

30 (target's ECL) + 12 (because reasons) = 42

So yeah, a paladin who takes 3 feats (one of them epic) should be able to dispel approx. 25% of the target's wards, chosen randomly and after landing a hit (That's still much less powerful than straight up breaching the top 4 most relevant wards off the target with no dispel checks whatsoever.)

If the game behaves in any other way, it's clearly a bug, not the actual mechanic (for the record, this is not something that i've noticed myself, but ok). Suggesting to nerf something in order to cope with an unadressed bug instead of fixing the actual bug seems strange.

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Seekeepeek
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Re: Nerf this

Post by Seekeepeek » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:03 am

CosmicOrderV wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:02 am
It sounds like you're saying Paladins need to stay as strong as they are, because otherwise, your character would start to lose too often, as you have them pick fights regularly. I'm not sure that's the right mindset here.

Also, the 'divine champion' class is locked out of Evil alignments, so that's a bust. The concept doesn't fit. I'm gonna stop derailing after this, but as has been pointed out in past threads, some of the present class concept-mechanics require tweaking.

Alas, as Tarkus has said. Nerf This.
hmm. no you got it wrong. i only been in one pvp in my epics. cause the evil folks usually flee or listen to my lecture and get rid of the undeads/evil summons. with no respect for the hero class i'd be in pvp constantly, cause it's a hallmark for evil folks to say they killed a paladin. and we do have to follow a strict code that leave little room to "walk away" i think there was an other topic were a DM said they will deal with murderous crusading paladins if it get out of hand.

Cerk Evermoore
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Re: Nerf this

Post by Cerk Evermoore » Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:18 am

I think more people would be complaining about Holy Sword and could actually talk about paladins if they actually just once had to fight a competent paladin who shrugs off all your CC / Physical Damage and removes your haste in a single auto attack and proceeds to kick the shit out of you because you cannot escape a hasted target.

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Re: Nerf this

Post by Alantar » Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:19 am

EDK is very strong, but I wouldn't call it a "win button". As it has been stated, there are several ways to deal with it.

On the other hand, if builds like wizards or sorcerers (especially pure, who are totally dependable on their control spells) are privated of their EDK they're going to be in big troubles. Why?

1. High saves and -pray to get rid to Crowd Control spells; which means: you pass the save, the wizard/sorcerer/caster is in big danger.

2. Heal potions, which allow you to sit down and eat a bunch of IGMS and then, once the wizard has finished, go after him.

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Re: Nerf this

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:37 am

Tarkus the dog wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:24 am
I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make here.

Holy sword's dispel is absolutely bonkers and I'm not sure how many times I need to repeat this. It's an absolute fact.

Speaking of 20 fun builds to play with, it would be something along the lines of:

1. Paladin

2. A white cj dog

3. My good friend Forest playing a vampire with a blindfold on

4. Barradoor on a pale tiefling (female)

5. My weaponmaster, because I'm the best PvPer in the world

That's my opinion. Did I prove anything? Not really. Holy sword's dispel remains entirely the same.

Also, palemaster most poweful? Most powerful what, banana eater? Monkey petter? I'm pretty confident in beating a palemaster with a weaponmaster. I'm also pretty confident in beating a palemaster with a weaponmaster. It's not a tier list, and it never should be. What is important is realizing what oversteps it's bounds and needs a change. Palemasters have been overstepping their bounds ever since NWN was a thing. Finally, all these later, they were given a slight nerf. Holy sword's dispel is next. It doesn't have to be a dispel. It can be literally anything else. Vulnerability on hit, anything, really.

I'm going to say it again, and hopefully for the last time. Dispel on hit is an absolutely overtuned mechanic, with only two counterplays:

1. Have high AC ( really hard to do in the case of paladin's where they get 55 AB )
2. Run away

I don't know, but between you and me this is a little bit absurd as the only means of dealing with it.

I'll actually also mention the third one: Ask the guy a question, and then hostile him and try to cheese him on your dual-wielding weaponmaster while he's typing out his answer. I'm just asking an alternative here, nothing more.
Ok, I am going to do my best to ignore the snark, because I get why you think my theory couldn't be proven in less then two hours even though it could be. The PGCC is relatively new after all. And after my last post I noticed you said somewhere in your counter arguments that the cl of the holy sword dispel is not effected by the cl dispel cap, and if that's the case you are right something is broken as the dispel should be maxed out at 24 (pallys can't get epic spell focus).

I would suggest letting people express their voices of dissent to your opinion before retorting going forward however, as beating up every response as they come in makes it look like you only see what you want to see and don't really want feedback to your feedback post at all, but rather just want everyone to accept your word on things that they haven't actually seen for themselves.

Now, since you thought I just pulled my list out of my Snuggybear, I will break down the reasons for each to maybe help you see I have actually put some thought into this.

Wizards/palemasters- A well played wizard can attack from almost every angle and summons help sure up their weaknesses against melee characters. Winning pvp tends to come down to two things, who hits first and who can attack on an angle that the other guy wasn't prepared for. Palemasters you just add a lot of ac and crit/sneak immunity to an already premium class.

Rogues- I realize that this hasn't played out fully yet in game and seeing is believing, but its pretty easy to see even without having to do it in game. Going grenade against anyone who is not a reflex build is likely going to work, sneak attack a few times, use a time stop scroll to finish them off. This is on top of what is already a dangerous class in the hands of a smart pvper, because of their versatility and potential damage output. if I we were placing odds in Vegas on the next thing to be nerfed, I would be putting my money on the grenades.

Fighter/WM/Rogue 20/7/3- Someone pointed out that this was a noob stomper build, and they are right in a way. But its more then that. Its also the easiest class to pvp with, because there is so little micromanagement. One mistake by the wizard, as good as they are, and they are dead. That alone makes this a top notch pvp build.

Then you start going into your pally's, clerics, and druids. Again, this list does not take into account pve at all, which is probably wrong to leave out for 90% of areliths players because being good at pve helps you get to level 30 with a nice gold pile, but the cream of the crop pvpers on arelith are also the players who know how to get to level 30 really fast with stacks of gold I could only dream of and that's who we were talking about here.

So, why is this relevant to holy sword you asked? Well, that's easy to answer. Sure, Holy sword is really good, but if it doesn't push the class into one of the best pvp classes then how can it be overpowered? I made a janky barbarian build on the PGCC the other day that was critting for 300 on average with a great axe. Since a barb can get 3 attacks at top ab with haste, we can assume that it will hit a lot on those three attacks. If I roll a 18 on my threat range two times in out of those say three hits, thats six hundred damage in half a round...killing almost everyone. Does that mean that barbarian needs to be nerfed? No, it was a god awful build that people would eat for breakfast that could just get lucky every once in a while.

Hopefully that explains where i am coming from.

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Re: Nerf this

Post by Ecthelion » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:42 am

Hum, I don't know.
I would say Holy Sword is really strong, but that the wind-up time a Paladin needs to buff to be effective makes it quite alright.
It's pretty much like Battleclerics. You'll literally get stomped if you're taken by surprise, because you'd need at least 2 rounds to be somewhat effective. Also, it needs to hit people whereas an Abjurationnist Spellsword can just Mord and then kill you, while being under perma-high AC.

When I fight a PvE boss ? Yes, I'm God-like. When I fight a PvP ? 90% of the times, I'm not at all, the other 10% being when I managed to play it greatly.

I don't think EDK needs a nerf. If you are a caster, well, you've got your own or Mord. If you're a Cleric, WoF or ignore it. If you're a Warlock, or a Necro, you've got your summons too. If you are a two-H build, try one-shooting or run. If you have high enough AC, ignore it. Mord and Gonne the mage. There are plenty of ways to get around it.

And say for the sake of it that you're not able to do any of this, you can also consider running and coming back.

Also, wizards are really strong. They have a variety of tools at their disposal that make them a threat, and fun to play.

CptJonas
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Re: Nerf this

Post by CptJonas » Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:07 pm

Do you realize two things?

1) When you PVP or else you create build for PVP you should make it workable with non or small amout of buffs...you must count with posibility that you will get dispeled in first round of combat....

2) Paladin must run towards you and hit you to do his stuff.....Do you realize that every mage can do same or even better from distance with one spell agains what you cant defend yourself....
:D :D :D

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Eters
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Re: Nerf this

Post by Eters » Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:09 pm

So the discussion seems to focus on three points :

1- Paladin's Holy sword
2- Epic Dragon Knight
3- Druids (It's always the damn druids)


1- So let's begin with paladin's holy sword, It gives a +5 enhancement which already bypasses most DR wards (stoneskin, premonition) so giving it a breach rather than a dispel wouldn't do much. Perhaps making it something like on hit : 5%-10% chance to dispel, similar to thundering's rage deafness ability that only triggers with a 25% rate on each hit. A paladin with heavy investement in paladin levels will (generally) have 5 APR when hasted, 2 at full AB and 3 other attacks with descending numbers. If we're going by the fact that the paladin is fighting a 2 hander naked barbarian with no AC what so ever, and every hit lands, if it's 5% chance, it's going to be a 25% chance to dispel in 5 hits. If it's 10% then it's 50% chance to dispel in 5 hits. I believe this way It should still be a good boon for paladins while not making it completely obsolete.

2- Epic Dragon Knight : Dragons are legendary creatures (even if reduced to mere pets by a majority of people in the server) and thus should have a certain degree of "notoriety" to it, It's also an epic spell so it should in a way be epic. But then again every casual adventurer in Arelith eventually becomes "epic" themselves as they go over level 21. The dumb AI to be ignored because player tool 1 exists, As a mage you can do many things with your EDK, from blocking people using the large hitbox, to focusing stealthers even after they stealth from you with (hips , etc ...) by targetting them before they do so once with the player tool 1 and letting the dragon chase them endlessly, to feeding your own dragon steroids (true strike pots) and watch it create rifts into the leylines with each swing, and the list goes on and on...

Dragons can be countered, yes, but the casual counter takes two rounds (or more if you're unlucky) to dismiss a dragon. Two rounds in which, the mage hasted will rain 4 spells on you, if not more. 4 spells that can completely cause your demise. From mords, to IGMS , to CC's , a mage retains it's full ability to ruin you while the fear dragon abomination is hunting you down.

I think EDK's nerf exists in that, a mage calling upon an epic dragon, should not have full ability to cast. (Similar to how black blade of disaster works, but perhaps less severe than that.) Giving the mage a chance to unsummon their dragon if they cast too much while it's out. It would put the mage in a certain situation where they have to wonder if casting is worth the risk of losing the dragon or not? Opening a small breathing room for those on the opposite side.

Or strike the mage with an EDK out with spell failure of a certain % which would cause some of their spells to fail. Though that would only leaves clerics/druids that can also summon the EDK advantaged since I don't think spell failure works on them.




3- Druids : Druids in my opinion, as strong as they seem to be, pay the heavy price for such by not having access to UMD and Tumble, Their monolith forms are strong, but the amount of things they can /do/ in each form is limited and predictable. Perhaps a nerf I'd suggest regarding the forms is also remove their ability to use potions in that form and give them some more DR/AC perhaps as remplacement. (That though, remains a very extreme nerf)

A druid that loses their wards have to revert back to their human form in order to reapply them, that puts them at risk of dying easily.


I just want to finish this by saying that Arelith is an RP server, The balance should be scaled in a way that the average player can survive, the good player can excel with a margin and the terrible player suffer with a margin. By no means I think the balance should be scaled only on those that excel at the mechanical aspect of the game. You shouldn't have to be god OOCly at knowing every hidden mechanic to operate a character properly, or build a character with a moderate chance at survival, nor should a group of average players have 0% chance to beat a single good player. I think that the player that can use the mechanics well should have a margin, definitely, but not to the point of tipping the scales that hard in their favor.

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Re: Nerf this

Post by Born on a mountain, raised in a cave » Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:25 pm

Eters wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:09 pm
[snip]

1- So let's begin with paladin's holy sword, It gives a +5 enhancement which already bypasses most DR wards (stoneskin, premonition) so giving it a breach rather than a dispel wouldn't do much. Perhaps making it something like on hit : 5%-10% chance to dispel, similar to thundering's rage deafness ability that only triggers with a 25% rate on each hit. A paladin with heavy investement in paladin levels will (generally) have 5 APR when hasted, 2 at full AB and 3 other attacks with descending numbers. If we're going by the fact that the paladin is fighting a 2 hander naked barbarian with no AC what so ever, and every hit lands, if it's 5% chance, it's going to be a 25% chance to dispel in 5 hits. If it's 10% then it's 50% chance to dispel in 5 hits. I believe this way It should still be a good boon for paladins while not making it completely obsolete.

[snip]
Disregarding everything else, I'll just have to point out that that's not how stochastics work:

The chance NOT to dispel at all on five hits with a 5% chance each is 0,95^5. The chance to dispel at least once is the inverse, which would be 1-0,774 = 0,226.

A marginal difference one might argue, but the false calculation becomes more significant with your 2nd example:

The chance NOT to dispel at all on five hits with a 10% chance each is 0,90^5, the inverse (AT LEAST one dispel) is 1-0,59 = 0,41

(Nearly 10% difference here!)

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Re: Nerf this

Post by Eters » Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:40 pm

Thank you for rectifying the mathematical mistake, I'm terrible at that.

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Re: Nerf this

Post by Arienette » Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:53 pm

I read the whole thread and just want to say how frustrating i find these conversations.

This looks to me as an "outsider" to be an echo chamber of a small group of folks with a pro-level understanding of NwN and Arelith mechanics trying to sharpen and dull various edges to make their epic PvP turn out a certain way or be more entertaining for them.

One thing that bothers me is the idea that good abilities like EDK result in a limited number of builds being viable. EDK allows my sub-optimally, pre-nerf character contribute to PvP and to PvE bosses. Nerf or eliminate EDK, my character becomes mechanically useless, guess what ill probably do? Re-build following the new cookie cutter version of the class. Hooray for variety.

You are forgetting about the tons of sub-30, "poorly" built characters played by people who dont have a PhD in Arelith mechanics. Being able to save your party's day with a dragon after being useless all dungeon long is fun. Being able to leave a settlement by yourself is fun.

We are not "optimally geared" because we dont have the time to spends literal IRL days grinding for gold on each character we build. We lack many of the advantages that the "elite" folks participating in forum nerf debates take for granted.

When the couple dozen or so of you number-crunching, PvP happy powerbuilding folks are all wandering around out there looking for trouble, its comforting for us scrubs to know we can drop a dragon and flee in the confusion when you decide to pick a fight with us due to some recent and transient political reason that only the most dedicated 5 percent of the server population is even aware of.

And your mad because that allows us to put up a decent fight against you, escape from you, or *gasp* horror of horrors, actually WIN against you? Yes, heavens forbid that your mathematically perfect, conflict prone, perfectly geared, rich lvl 30 character is unable to reliably roflstomp with 100 percent certainty, a lvl 23 casual who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. After all, you spent 8 hours working out the build, 40 hours grinding to 30, 40 hours farming amadntium, and another 80 grinding enough gold and runic materials to have 5 percent runed everything. And your finally ready to do some "RP" im the form of picking a fight with someone because they are not in the tribe that you and your friends are in. And then you dont steamroll them quite as thuroughly as you envisioned. I feel for you.

Yes, I built up a hell of a strawman there. And im using some dramatic exaggerations. And please dont feel personally attacked, im one of the people who spends a lot of hours on Arelith. But i hope it serves to illustrate another perspective.

Basically: Please, wont someone think of us "little people"?

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Re: Nerf this

Post by Astral » Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:59 pm

Eters wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:09 pm
I think EDK's nerf exists in that, a mage calling upon an epic dragon, should not have full ability to cast.
I like this direction. instead of nerfing the dragon, nerf the caster's ability to cast while the dragon is out.
I dont know if it's possible to code spell failure chance to divine casters but if it's possible it would be a very good addition. Once the dragon is out X% failure chance to any casting, scaling up with the dragon's power. If its impossbile to code spell failure chance to divine casting, make it a ridiculously high concentration check (again, scaling with the dragon's power).
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Re: Nerf this

Post by Born on a mountain, raised in a cave » Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:10 pm

Arienette wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:53 pm
I read the whole thread and just want to say how frustrating i find these conversations.

This looks to me as an "outsider" to be an echo chamber of a small group of folks with a pro-level understanding of NwN and Arelith mechanics trying to sharpen and dull various edges to make their epic PvP turn out a certain way or be more entertaining for them.

One thing that bothers me is the idea that good abilities like EDK result in a limited number of builds being viable. EDK allows my sub-optimally, pre-nerf character contribute to PvP and to PvE bosses. Nerf or eliminate EDK, my character becomes mechanically useless, guess what ill probably do? Re-build following the new cookie cutter version of the class. Hooray for variety.

You are forgetting about the tons of sub-30, "poorly" built characters played by people who dont have a PhD in Arelith mechanics. Being able to save your party's day with a dragon after being useless all dungeon long is fun. Being able to leave a settlement by yourself is fun.

We are not "optimally geared" because we dont have the time to spends literal IRL days grinding for gold on each character we build. We lack many of the advantages that the "elite" folks participating in forum nerf debates take for granted.

When the couple dozen or so of you number-crunching, PvP happy powerbuilding folks are all wandering around out there looking for trouble, its comforting for us scrubs to know we can drop a dragon and flee in the confusion when you decide to pick a fight with us due to some recent and transient political reason that only the most dedicated 5 percent of the server population is even aware of.

And your mad because that allows us to put up a decent fight against you, escape from you, or *gasp* horror of horrors, actually WIN against you? Yes, heavens forbid that your mathematically perfect, conflict prone, perfectly geared, rich lvl 30 character is unable to reliably roflstomp with 100 percent certainty, a lvl 23 casual who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. After all, you spent 8 hours working out the build, 40 hours grinding to 30, 40 hours farming amadntium, and another 80 grinding enough gold and runic materials to have 5 percent runed everything. And your finally ready to do some "RP" im the form of picking a fight with someone because they are not in the tribe that you and your friends are in. And then you dont steamroll them quite as thuroughly as you envisioned. I feel for you.

Yes, I built up a hell of a strawman there. And im using some dramatic exaggerations. And please dont feel personally attacked, im one of the people who spends a lot of hours on Arelith. But i hope it serves to illustrate another perspective.

Basically: Please, wont someone think of us "little people"?
Can't say I'm particularly inclined.

If this is how you argue for an imbalanced state to persist, such benevolence would not only benefit "scrubs", as you put it, but also the "number-crunching, PvP happy powerbuilding folks", that will use it to their advantage to utterly dominate.

Frankly, I don't really understand what you are arguing:
First you abhor people spending a lot of time to be playing the best character they can, asking for consideration of the people with little time on their hands, I would presume, but then you go ahead and say that you're "one of the people who spends a lot of hours on Arelith".

The time and effort you put into a game should be rewarding. Your prowess should reflect your investment. If it didn't, why even bother engaging with the game's mechanics at all?

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Aodh Lazuli
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Re: Nerf this

Post by Aodh Lazuli » Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:12 pm

Arienette wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:53 pm
Basically: Please, wont someone think of us "little people"?
I think you're more likely to find yourself listened to when you don't spend three paragraphs being outspokenly insulting.

I would ask you to reconsider your position, and move it away from saying "people with mechanical knowledge of the game are inherently inconsiderate players", which is what your entire post basically says.
Last edited by Aodh Lazuli on Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dont text eggplants.

xanrael
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Re: Nerf this

Post by xanrael » Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:13 pm

Astral wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:59 pm
Eters wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:09 pm
I think EDK's nerf exists in that, a mage calling upon an epic dragon, should not have full ability to cast.
I like this direction. instead of nerfing the dragon, nerf the caster's ability to cast while the dragon is out.
I dont know if it's possible to code spell failure chance to divine casters but if it's possible it would be a very good addition. Once the dragon is out X% failure chance to any casting, scaling up with the dragon's power. If its impossbile to code spell failure chance to divine casting, make it a ridiculously high concentration check (again, scaling with the dragon's power).
You can cause a % spell failure to any caster. You can even make it school specific so for example have 100% evocation failure, 50% abjuration, 25% transmutation, etc.

Arienette
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Re: Nerf this

Post by Arienette » Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:58 pm

Well thats not true.

I was trying to be hyperbolic and maybe a big edgy, not insulting of hurtful. Sorry if i came off that way. Let me try again.

Plenty of people with great mechanical knowledge of the game are very considerate and incredibly helpful.

They are constantly going out of their way to help people like me suck less.

Probably many of the people in the thread are those same helpful, considerate people that Arelith is full of.

Let me try to rephrase.

It seems to me that a lot of the feedback and conversations that drive mechanical changes here comes from a fairly small nunber of very dedicated players. And often the feedback comes from these players frequently PvPing each other.

Its like there is a proving ground where a circle of really smart and talented players figure out what classes, abilities, and builds are good, bad, worthless, or OP. Some of this information makes it out to the wider player base, but not all of it.

Again, that is my impression.

Then you have dozens of more casual plauers/characters who are out there doing their thing. RPing, adventuring, exploring. Completely unaware that the tools their mediocre character uses to occassionally do cool things are considered "OP".

Then, driven by the aforementioned mechanical discussions driven by that realitively small number of people, a change is made. Server reset. Saturday morning rolls around, that casual player logs in and all of a sudden their character sucks and cant do anything.

So they either live with sucking, or quit the game, or roll/rebuild as a Cookie Cutter.

This doesnt make the talented players inconsiderate, or bad people. They are persuing their own interest in a totally reasonable way.

Just trying to point out that if EDK is significantly nerfed due to a conversation like this, theres gonna be a ton of people who log in some Sunday afternoon to find they cant do a bunch of the cool/fun stuff they used to be able do, and that sucks.
Last edited by Arienette on Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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