Critical Feedback...Discord, Bans and Feelings.

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Bryce Silver-Wind
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Critical Feedback...Discord, Bans and Feelings.

Post by Bryce Silver-Wind » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:41 pm

So a lot has come up on the Forums, and even in Discord about DMs abusing the power of Discord, and people literally acting like they are in Kindergarten over the very smallest thing that might hurt their feelings. This power is actually being used to strangle hold players, force people do behave in a inhuman way and keep the fear of the mighty DMs and the Ban Hammer over the heads of players. This IS actually something that is happening, its not fair to players and its not fair to people keeping personal rooms. Now I will agree that more "Direct" attacks on players is not okay, for example " You are such a crappy player, I am gonna PK you every damn time I see you online and ensure everyone I know does too ", This is something that needs DM attention. Using something more along the lines of "Well I am sorry you don't like how IG government changes every month and it removes everything you did, but you did it too when you became mayor/chancellor/leader, so really you kinda need to get over it." Is not DM worthy, people who are crying about this, need to stop acting like they are in Kindergarten where teachers are there to hold your hand and kick out the student that they don't like.

Also as point of note, DMs cannot threaten any punishment for you refusing to allow people into your chat or kicking them out of your chat for running to DMs, or force you to reveal anything in your chat under threats of ban or punishment, this is illegal under the TOS of Discord. I know at least 1 DM has been doing this. I advise the Admins review how much power the DMs think they have over Discord, if the Admins want the exact TOS they are breaching, or any player does, I am glad to send it to you.

Bans seem to be the up and coming answer to about everything, especially having opinions, speaking facts and "abrasive" behavior, even when they themselves admit that Discord makes it impossible to tell if the players are being abrasive or if they are infact having miscommunication issues due to lack of body language or tone. I am sorry but Bans are not the way to handle this, we are playing a PG 13 server yes, but DMs are not here to coddle players that get their feelings hurt. I can agree with a ban where there is real evidence of players literally hurting players, "threatening, telling them to go off themselves, etc" but there are times we need to tell them to go pull up their big girl/boy panties, and toughen up a bit. People are gonna disagree with you, if you make a post, people are going to respond, you don't have to like it, and guess what, Discord even offers a mute button, or you can leave that chat if you don't like how things are going. Running to DM's over every little conversation that leaves you with a light sniffle, is a waste of the DMs time, as well as just makes it look like your literally out to get that person banned or you really have nothing better to do with your time.

The "Be Nice Rule"...is so insanely written that no DM will give you the same answer on what this actually entails, and the moment you leave it up to interpretation, you get issues like these where "I feel like I am being nice and trying to be helpful, but they run and cry to DMs that I am being mean and picking on them", this needs better clarification, or change the rule all together. Stop leaving rules up to interpretation, stop making rulings on specific rules, and make people have to hunt the forums for them. All rules should be clearly written, clarified, and any updates to the rules edited in at all times.

No, I am not the one that hacked the server, quite honestly to the people that did, all you did was hurt players trying to appeal bans, trying to hold things hostage over the DM team is literally dumb. To the Admins/Devs, blocking the last three months appeals due to them using that, is just silly, they may not even be related to this server and are literally just targeting that to start a witch hunt, which congratulations, you have succeeded at doing. I could understand saying you wont consider them for 30 days, but not at all, is just a bit painful.

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The GrumpyCat
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Re: Critical Feedback...Discord, Bans and Feelings.

Post by The GrumpyCat » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:58 pm

A response is currently being drafted, in the mean time due to the inflamatory nature of this thread it's going to be locked.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

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Liareth
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Re: Critical Feedback...Discord, Bans and Feelings.

Post by Liareth » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:23 pm

(this isn't the 'official' reply, I just felt the need to clarify a couple points)
Bryce Silver-Wind wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:41 pm
Also as point of note, DMs cannot threaten any punishment for you refusing to allow people into your chat or kicking them out of your chat for running to DMs, or force you to reveal anything in your chat under threats of ban or punishment, this is illegal under the TOS of Discord. I know at least 1 DM has been doing this. I advise the Admins review how much power the DMs think they have over Discord, if the Admins want the exact TOS they are breaching, or any player does, I am glad to send it to you.
This sounds like something a twelve year old would come up with. I mean, really? You think that breaching Discord's terms of services is ILLEGAL? What if I added a little document that you had to agree to before connecting to Arelith which made you forfeit your freedom and income if you accepted? Do you think that it would be illegal for you to refuse to hand over your monthly salary and get in the coal mines when we demanded it? *sigh*
No, I am not the one that hacked the server, quite honestly to the people that did, all you did was hurt players trying to appeal bans, trying to hold things hostage over the DM team is literally dumb. To the Admins/Devs, blocking the last three months appeals due to them using that, is just silly, they may not even be related to this server and are literally just targeting that to start a witch hunt, which congratulations, you have succeeded at doing. I could understand saying you wont consider them for 30 days, but not at all, is just a bit painful.
If you've already been banned on Arelith (which takes a LOT of poor behaviour consistently demonstrated over a LONG period of time by the way) you're a negative influence here and you're lucky we'd even consider an appeal from you. We're usually big softies who don't like to keep people banned for long which is why the appeal process exists in the first place. Don't mistake our easy-going voluntary process for a right that you're entitled to. You're not, and if you don't like it, you can stay off the server.

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Re: Critical Feedback...Discord, Bans and Feelings.

Post by Liareth » Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:10 am

I should have been more considerate and professional with my earlier public response in this thread. Even though my name is red and I am technically retired, and I stated that my post wasn't an official reply, it was naive of me to think that my post would taken in a non-official capacity when I have the ability to reply to locked threads. I shouldn't have misused that ability to act snarky towards the OP in public, no matter the circumstance.

Dealing with the hacking situation was stressful and I had very little patience for soap box drama yesterday. It frustrates me deeply to read threads like these from banned players because I know how much thought and discussion goes into the decision to ban a player. This is not meant as an excuse or justification but an explanation for why I responded the way I did.
So a lot has come up on the Forums, and even in Discord about DMs abusing the power of Discord, and people literally acting like they are in Kindergarten over the very smallest thing that might hurt their feelings. This power is actually being used to strangle hold players, force people do behave in a inhuman way and keep the fear of the mighty DMs and the Ban Hammer over the heads of players. This IS actually something that is happening, its not fair to players and its not fair to people keeping personal rooms. Now I will agree that more "Direct" attacks on players is not okay, for example " You are such a crappy player, I am gonna PK you every damn time I see you online and ensure everyone I know does too ", This is something that needs DM attention. Using something more along the lines of "Well I am sorry you don't like how IG government changes every month and it removes everything you did, but you did it too when you became mayor/chancellor/leader, so really you kinda need to get over it." Is not DM worthy, people who are crying about this, need to stop acting like they are in Kindergarten where teachers are there to hold your hand and kick out the student that they don't like.
I absolutely agree that players are report happy. But this is better than the alternative - and the DM team is large enough to sift through them, and they have the tools they need to determine the validity of a report.

The rest of this quote is a transparent attempt by you to misconstrue the circumstances surrounding your ban to manipulate the public and gather support. No, DMs aren't going to punish you for saying something bad about another player to a group of your friends in a private setting. If this behaviour becomes endemic, regularly oozes into the game, and ruins the experience of other players, then yes, punishment will be administered, regardless of where the abuse occurred.

Arelith isn't the sort of place where you can claim "well I beat him up OUT OF SCHOOL GROUNDS so it's okay" and expect to get away with it.
Also as point of note, DMs cannot threaten any punishment for you refusing to allow people into your chat or kicking them out of your chat for running to DMs, or force you to reveal anything in your chat under threats of ban or punishment, this is illegal under the TOS of Discord. I know at least 1 DM has been doing this. I advise the Admins review how much power the DMs think they have over Discord, if the Admins want the exact TOS they are breaching, or any player does, I am glad to send it to you.
I don't know whether it's true that they state that one cannot take action against somebody for their conduct on Discord. But, frankly, it really doesn't matter what they say. Assuming for a moment that we both agree it is illegal to violate their EULA, try sending a message to Discord saying - "a collective of our community volunteer moderators banned me from a free game because I was a toxic and manipulative presence on Discord" - see what they say. If they don't say it, they'll probably be thinking it - "good". And I can't imagine the laughter that would mark your exit from a lawyer's office after sharing this tale with them.
Bans seem to be the up and coming answer to about everything, especially having opinions, speaking facts and "abrasive" behavior, even when they themselves admit that Discord makes it impossible to tell if the players are being abrasive or if they are infact having miscommunication issues due to lack of body language or tone. I am sorry but Bans are not the way to handle this, we are playing a PG 13 server yes, but DMs are not here to coddle players that get their feelings hurt. I can agree with a ban where there is real evidence of players literally hurting players, "threatening, telling them to go off themselves, etc" but there are times we need to tell them to go pull up their big girl/boy panties, and toughen up a bit. People are gonna disagree with you, if you make a post, people are going to respond, you don't have to like it, and guess what, Discord even offers a mute button, or you can leave that chat if you don't like how things are going. Running to DM's over every little conversation that leaves you with a light sniffle, is a waste of the DMs time, as well as just makes it look like your literally out to get that person banned or you really have nothing better to do with your time.
You seem to be under the impression that you were banned unjustly for a single offence. This is certainly the narrative you are trying to spread in private. I'm not intimately familiar with your case, but I've seen your name mentioned negatively in cases countless times over the last year. As a player, you have a long history of causing trouble. A quick glance at the DM forums shows me several cases about you before the one that resulted in your ban. I won't go into detail about those cases here in public because I do believe that information is private.

Bans have never been the answer to everything and they are rarely the answer to anything, with the team preferring soft punishment (rpr drop, can't play a specific character for a while, notells, etc) over hard punishment in the majority of cases. A ban was the answer to you because you've been a consistently negative influence on Arelith - you scheme and manipulate and harass and bully other players to get what you want OOCly, this thread included, and leave the server a worse place for it - and please note that I never would have stated this publicly in such a direct fashion if you hadn't brought this into the public arena yourself with this post - but you were frank with your thoughts and now I'm being to be frank with mine.
The "Be Nice Rule"...is so insanely written that no DM will give you the same answer on what this actually entails, and the moment you leave it up to interpretation, you get issues like these where "I feel like I am being nice and trying to be helpful, but they run and cry to DMs that I am being mean and picking on them", this needs better clarification, or change the rule all together. Stop leaving rules up to interpretation, stop making rulings on specific rules, and make people have to hunt the forums for them. All rules should be clearly written, clarified, and any updates to the rules edited in at all times.
The point of the rule is to be vague. DMs don't wield the individual power to ban players - they discipline as a group after a long period of discussion. They are unlikely to even reprimand a player without reaching a group consensus about it first.

I think the lack of rules beyond the basics is a big strength of Arelith because it means that problem players can't skirt around the rules and claim "but it's legit, technically!" and it empowers DMs to act more in line with common sense. In an ideal world, a player should not need to know that there even are rules. They truly are common sense - "keep it IC" and "be a nice person" and "don't have Sinfar sex". Unfortunately we're all human and not all players are good players, so we need some very basic rules in order to function.

You're welcome to your opinion regarding the effectiveness of our Be Nice rule, of course, though I do disagree with it. In terms of other rulings, I agree that they could be better documented.
No, I am not the one that hacked the server, quite honestly to the people that did, all you did was hurt players trying to appeal bans, trying to hold things hostage over the DM team is literally dumb. To the Admins/Devs, blocking the last three months appeals due to them using that, is just silly, they may not even be related to this server and are literally just targeting that to start a witch hunt, which congratulations, you have succeeded at doing. I could understand saying you wont consider them for 30 days, but not at all, is just a bit painful.
As I stated above (not so politely and elegantly, though, sorry!) - the appeal process is something that exists because we don't like to keep players banned for long. There are players out there that have been through their tenth appeal now. We keep unbanning them and they keep coming back and getting banned again. Keep in mind that in order to be eligible for an appeal, a player must have already proven to be a consistent negative influence on Arelith and the DM team has decided that the server would be a better place without them. This is being framed as a big injustice - actually, it was a courtesy in the first place to extend the offer of appeal to these players who have already been judged as a net loss to the server by staff consensus.

I should note that if players feel they have been banned unjustly, no matter the circumstances (e.g. whether we say appeals are allowed or not), they can talk to the admin team about it.

+unlock so everyone can discuss this freely now. I'm sorry it took so long for that to happen.

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MalKalz
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Re: Critical Feedback...Discord, Bans and Feelings.

Post by MalKalz » Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:50 am

Phew. What a day. And, now that things have somewhat settled for myself, I can address what should have remained a private topic. I'll dissect it, be absolutely transparent and address the concerns expressed.

Firstly, the response above. Yes, there was a strike of unprofessional behaviour which came to fruition due to exhausted spirits dealing with a breach of security. But, the apology has been given which shows that it wasn't intended that way and it was purely a response to antics that should never have surfaced. And, I am pleased to see that it was done of their own choosing to respond once more and open the topic. However, this topic became public only because of our announcement that we would not be entertaining appeals - even after I suggested to the player privately that this stance would likely change and that they need to be patient.

So let us dig in:
So a lot has come up on the Forums, and even in Discord about DMs abusing the power of Discord, and people literally acting like they are in Kindergarten over the very smallest thing that might hurt their feelings.
People are entitled to report things that are believed to be rule breaches and poor sportsmanship. These reports are sent to the Active DM team which distributes to any that fall under the category. And, each report is extensively reviewed and discussed. Nothing is rushed to simply get it off our plate. And, nor should any player feel like they are tattling. Player identities are kept hidden on reports to protect your place and enable you to interact seamlessly with the rest of the community.

Sometimes what another views as a small thing is actually something a lot larger. We each have a different tolerance to topics. We each have different cultures, beliefs and thoughts - and sometimes those can be pushed in ways (unintentionally or intentionally) that lead to a discussion to correct behaviour that is offending or making of an unfit community. And, if it isn't reported, it can explode into something more. The same applies to in-game server rule breaches (start a small group with friends, get disgruntled over PvP and then vow to kill them each 24 hours).

Now, the big topic veiled in this is Discord. Quoting myself from a previous thread: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=7891
Allow me to bring up one of the biggest culprits -- Discord.

Discord can be a valuable tool for quick communciation, organization and a sense of community. However, there are always two sides to a coin and it is that Discord is also very destructive. Going over another case, creating Discord servers to specifically trash talk an individual or, as a faction, find a way to destroy their enjoyment every time they log in is completely unacceptable. Furthermore, the language and descriptions used of your fellow players, and staff members is appalling. You should simply ask yourself: "Would I want to be spoken to like this? Or spoken about like this?" If you can't answer yes, then do not say anything. It is better to bite your tongue.

Players are entitled to their opinion and are able to vocalize it with friends. However, taking it too far is unnecessary and needs to stop. The team is not against the use of discord, but leave the enjoyment of the game to the IC actions and choices we make, and keep the OOC out.

What is necessary of players is evaluation of themselves. Look at how you conduct yourself. If you are acting in a way to someone that you would like to be treated then you are doing just fine. If you are bullying, harassing, scheming to ruin fun or anything that you wouldn't want done to yourself, reassess your own behaviour before the staff needs to intervene.
That being said once more, I'll actually explain my particular stance on Discord. Discord servers are useful for communication; however, are not necessary for this game. There is now becoming a trend in creating a server for every faction, settlement and group of friends which shares IG information among them, and coordinates plans. Is all of that bad? No. Some stuff in Discords are beneficial - take for instance the Arelith 3.0 Unofficial Discord. They have topics to ask any question (mentors and community members can respond), build sections and so forth. But, you'll then argue this existed back in the day with Skype. While it did, it was not so publicly accessible - you needed to be friends with them, added to a group chat, and it wasn't categorized.

The fear that DMs are attempting to join Discord groups to put a leash on people, or throw some power into the mix, is entirely false. The DMs do not jump at a chance to sink their claws into something, nor are we in every Discord. I was one of the first DMs to join a public Discord, such as Arelith 3.0, to be accessible for questions and immediate concerns that needed my attention. Other DMs followed suit, and I continuously remind them that it is not a requirement to join any Discord, but up to them if they wish to to be available.

To say that a DM is pressuring people to let them in or other people, and releasing information within your Discords is wrong. And, if there is the off-chance of it happening, it would be taken care of internally through myself and the admins. We often are asked questions by various groups, and during those conversations, they often invite us to join their Discord if we like. We do sometimes because it is requested; however, I've personally left a handful to let people be themselves in there.

However, when we receive reports of a specific channel being created for and called "shitposting" in which abrasive, rude and harassing comments are made towards players of the community, we will investigate and act upon it. When these comments bleed from Discord and directly impact the feelings of a player, their experience and the community health, that is when we will act. Otherwise, we are not actively policing Discord. It's a third party program where you can communicate - just do so politely and not target your fellow players.
Also as point of note, DMs cannot threaten any punishment for you refusing to allow people into your chat or kicking them out of your chat for running to DMs, or force you to reveal anything in your chat under threats of ban or punishment, this is illegal under the TOS of Discord.
This is correct. A DM cannot threaten to punish you for how you manage your own Discord server. A DM can, however, take punitive action toward a player that is harassing players externally which is bleeding into the active game world and being extremely detrimental to the health of the server. However, saying it is illegal to do so based on the Terms of Service of Discord is calling the kettle black:
Discord Terms of Service wrote: As an example, you agree not to use the Service in order to:

- defame, libel, ridicule, mock, stalk, threaten, harass, intimidate or abuse anyone;
Creating harassment posts, "shitposting" channels to talk about what players are doing, how you do not approve and making comments that you'd not do so to their face is in itself a violation of those standards as well. So let us all behave so we can enjoy Discord freely without violating the Terms of Service every user agreed to?
Bans seem to be the up and coming answer to about everything, especially having opinions, speaking facts and "abrasive" behavior, even when they themselves admit that Discord makes it impossible to tell if the players are being abrasive or if they are in fact having miscommunication issues due to lack of body language or tone.
Bans are never the first approach. We do not drop the proverbial ban hammer lightly. Those that receive a ban have had enough opportunities, with feedback, to improve. First, it would be speaking with them and addressing the concerns. Second, if it happened again, sit down as a team and determine the level of impact it has on the community and whether it is detrimental. If it is, we will either decide on short ban and allow an appeal. However, continuing to be detrimental and showing that you will not improve? That is a waste of our time to continue to put effort in addressing the concern, it is too many chances for you to show you care for the server, and too many times people have to be exposed to this behaviour. The ban that was given was not a singular instance, it was a cumulative ban based on repeat bad behaviour that had been discussed well more than three times - it extends to IC and OOC chat, Discord and the forums which continued to occur regularly even after the initial talk up to yesterday.

The objective of the DM team is to address concerns that impact the gameplay and enjoyment of the server. Without a community, Arelith does not exist. So, we do our best to ensure that everyone has fun and the problematic players have been addressed so that they can correct their behaviour. Failing to do so will earn yourself a departure, temporary or permanent, and is entirely due to your own choices. And, we will continuously act with the best interest of the community so that everyone can enjoy the game.

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Re: Critical Feedback...Discord, Bans and Feelings.

Post by Ork » Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:07 pm

After seeing this thread unlocked, I'd just like to inform readers that this player went onto the Arelith discord after the thread locked to continue pushing their sensationalized narrative in hopes of wriling people up.

Those aren't the actions of a repentant person banned but the actions of a vengeful individual bent on exacting some level of revenge in response to their punishment.

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Re: Critical Feedback...Discord, Bans and Feelings.

Post by Drexyl N~drass » Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:17 pm

I'm just going to throw my two cents in. A ban isn't always a bad thing. At the time emotions can run hot, but sometimes we need a break, and this game has a way of Keeping us glued beyond what should be the point of concession. I'm coming up on the end of a three month ban, and to be honest the situation offered me a lot of clarity and time to reflect. Granted that takes putting ones own pride aside to actually take a look at ones own play style. Bottom line is, One DM doesn't ban anyone. It's a group decision. So if a group of dms look at all the data, and decide there is a problem, that alone should tell you something. Yeah three months away hasn't been awesome, I have a number of plotlines that have been in stasis since then, but without question after all this time, I can say that it was for the best.

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Re: Critical Feedback...Discord, Bans and Feelings.

Post by Rooshi49 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:11 pm

Liareth wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:10 am
So a lot has come up on the Forums, and even in Discord about DMs abusing the power of Discord, and people literally acting like they are in Kindergarten over the very smallest thing that might hurt their feelings. This power is actually being used to strangle hold players, force people do behave in a inhuman way and keep the fear of the mighty DMs and the Ban Hammer over the heads of players. This IS actually something that is happening, its not fair to players and its not fair to people keeping personal rooms. Now I will agree that more "Direct" attacks on players is not okay, for example " You are such a crappy player, I am gonna PK you every damn time I see you online and ensure everyone I know does too ", This is something that needs DM attention. Using something more along the lines of "Well I am sorry you don't like how IG government changes every month and it removes everything you did, but you did it too when you became mayor/chancellor/leader, so really you kinda need to get over it." Is not DM worthy, people who are crying about this, need to stop acting like they are in Kindergarten where teachers are there to hold your hand and kick out the student that they don't like.
I absolutely agree that players are report happy. But this is better than the alternative - and the DM team is large enough to sift through them, and they have the tools they need to determine the validity of a report.

The rest of this quote is a transparent attempt by you to misconstrue the circumstances surrounding your ban to manipulate the public and gather support. No, DMs aren't going to punish you for saying something bad about another player to a group of your friends in a private setting. If this behaviour becomes endemic, regularly oozes into the game, and ruins the experience of other players, then yes, punishment will be administered, regardless of where the abuse occurred.

Arelith isn't the sort of place where you can claim "well I beat him up OUT OF SCHOOL GROUNDS so it's okay" and expect to get away with it.
So I understand that you're retired and you don't necessarily speak in an official capacity, but I'm curious about this:
"No, DMs aren't going to punish you for saying something bad about another player to a group of your friends in a private setting."
I was under the impression from after this ban (as I knew about it before the forum post was even created, and I know the OP) that someone could just go into any discord and take a screenshot of some off the wall out of context comment and report it to the DMs as being some sort of abuse and the DMs "MIGHT" actually take it to be serious and ban someone over it.

To give an example: lets say Anna and Bob were talking to each other and Anna said jokingly: "Bob, you're such an idiot, kys"
Could someone screenshot that and go to the DMs and report that as being against the be-nice-rule and actually hold ground?

The reason I ask this is because after what happened to the OP my friends and I have had discussions about the legitimacy of banning someone over what's said in discord. I've read all the responses and I know that perhaps it wasn't the singular event that happened over discord that caused the OP's ban, but it still was the proverbial "Straw that broke the camel's back". Perhaps the OP's decision to go to forums was in bad taste, but I personally don't agree with the ban over something said in discord. Ofcourse that's just my two-cents.

My honest concern is that IF someone could really just screenshot stuff happening in discords that are honestly not toxic to the community, but just friendly banter, and it could have consequences IG, then I fear people on discord channels becoming insular and exclusive to others. Discord offers an OOC way to communicate and organize better and faster RP than the ways available in-game. I would hate to see it being used trepidatiously in the future out of the fear that some DM could be policing it and potentially banning people over what's said.

Also, I know that perhaps on the flip side that some people may toxicly use discord channels to organize hatefulness OOC towards another player, I'm not talking about that. If someone ever catches that, sure something should be done. That IS something that is so toxic it bleeds over into the game, and thus should be dealt with.

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Re: Critical Feedback...Discord, Bans and Feelings.

Post by monkeywithstick » Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:23 pm

Rooshi49 wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:11 pm
To give an example: lets say Anna and Bob were talking to each other and Anna said jokingly: "Bob, you're such an idiot, kys"
Could someone screenshot that and go to the DMs and report that as being against the be-nice-rule and actually hold ground?
You need to be confident of who you are speaking to. You can say exactly what you like, you cannot control how it is reacted to. In this example, you are somewhat leaving yourself open in a number of non-Arelith related circumstances...
The subject of the remark may be more upset than you think they will be, at which point depending on the relative locations there absolutely are police responses towards online harrassment, albeit uncommon.
The subject could also be suicidal. If related or unrelated to that remark they then were to do so, you can bet your Snuggybear if the coroner or parents or significant other going through their stuff post mortem finds said chat logs they will probably be upset and should they wish to pursue it, have legal recourse.
Case in point on a much larger scale game: https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/0 ... ve-online/

Most of this comes down to basic online common sense. Most people seem intent upon forgetting this but your actions online do potentially expose you to consequence. However fun it is to pretend anonymity unless you are very very good at internet security whatever you may do is public should you attract enough approbium.
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Re: Critical Feedback...Discord, Bans and Feelings.

Post by Liareth » Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:39 pm

Rooshi49 wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:11 pm
Liareth wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:10 am
So a lot has come up on the Forums, and even in Discord about DMs abusing the power of Discord, and people literally acting like they are in Kindergarten over the very smallest thing that might hurt their feelings. This power is actually being used to strangle hold players, force people do behave in a inhuman way and keep the fear of the mighty DMs and the Ban Hammer over the heads of players. This IS actually something that is happening, its not fair to players and its not fair to people keeping personal rooms. Now I will agree that more "Direct" attacks on players is not okay, for example " You are such a crappy player, I am gonna PK you every damn time I see you online and ensure everyone I know does too ", This is something that needs DM attention. Using something more along the lines of "Well I am sorry you don't like how IG government changes every month and it removes everything you did, but you did it too when you became mayor/chancellor/leader, so really you kinda need to get over it." Is not DM worthy, people who are crying about this, need to stop acting like they are in Kindergarten where teachers are there to hold your hand and kick out the student that they don't like.
I absolutely agree that players are report happy. But this is better than the alternative - and the DM team is large enough to sift through them, and they have the tools they need to determine the validity of a report.

The rest of this quote is a transparent attempt by you to misconstrue the circumstances surrounding your ban to manipulate the public and gather support. No, DMs aren't going to punish you for saying something bad about another player to a group of your friends in a private setting. If this behaviour becomes endemic, regularly oozes into the game, and ruins the experience of other players, then yes, punishment will be administered, regardless of where the abuse occurred.

Arelith isn't the sort of place where you can claim "well I beat him up OUT OF SCHOOL GROUNDS so it's okay" and expect to get away with it.
So I understand that you're retired and you don't necessarily speak in an official capacity, but I'm curious about this:
"No, DMs aren't going to punish you for saying something bad about another player to a group of your friends in a private setting."
I was under the impression from after this ban (as I knew about it before the forum post was even created, and I know the OP) that someone could just go into any discord and take a screenshot of some off the wall out of context comment and report it to the DMs as being some sort of abuse and the DMs "MIGHT" actually take it to be serious and ban someone over it.

To give an example: lets say Anna and Bob were talking to each other and Anna said jokingly: "Bob, you're such an idiot, kys"
Could someone screenshot that and go to the DMs and report that as being against the be-nice-rule and actually hold ground?

The reason I ask this is because after what happened to the OP my friends and I have had discussions about the legitimacy of banning someone over what's said in discord. I've read all the responses and I know that perhaps it wasn't the singular event that happened over discord that caused the OP's ban, but it still was the proverbial "Straw that broke the camel's back". Perhaps the OP's decision to go to forums was in bad taste, but I personally don't agree with the ban over something said in discord. Ofcourse that's just my two-cents.

My honest concern is that IF someone could really just screenshot stuff happening in discords that are honestly not toxic to the community, but just friendly banter, and it could have consequences IG, then I fear people on discord channels becoming insular and exclusive to others. Discord offers an OOC way to communicate and organize better and faster RP than the ways available in-game. I would hate to see it being used trepidatiously in the future out of the fear that some DM could be policing it and potentially banning people over what's said.

Also, I know that perhaps on the flip side that some people may toxicly use discord channels to organize hatefulness OOC towards another player, I'm not talking about that. If someone ever catches that, sure something should be done. That IS something that is so toxic it bleeds over into the game, and thus should be dealt with.
I totally get where you're coming from with this. This concern applies to any player a troubled history on the server who makes a comment to a friend that looks outwardly offensive to an uninformed observer but is understood as banter between friends to the involved players, which is witnessed by a third party who misunderstands it and reports it. The fear that you're expressing is that the comment might be taken out of context and used to punish a player who meant nothing by it. The medium is unimportant - in game, on the forums, on Discord, on Skype, etc - the concern is still the same.

I can tell you is that the DM team don't ban players for fun. It's a lot of paperwork (it actually is). Common sense usually prevails. In this example, if it wasn't obvious that the comment(s) were made jokingly, the DM would contact the reported player for an explanation, who would then share their side of the story. This would lead to contacting the other player involved to verify that it was all in good fun.

I think the key is observing behavioural trends, not one-off comments. Even if you make an off-the-cuff malicious comment about another player to your friends, and that player sees it and is hurt by it and reports it to us, there are many stages of punishment before you hit a ban depending on severity, frequency, and impact of your actions - first you would be spoken to, and if you continued to make hateful comments to the player then the consequences would escalate until you reach a ban. A ban is a last resort. Consistently demonstrating poor behaviour through many interactions leads to a ban.

It also depends on the severity and intent behind the message. If you're just a bit of a dick and you tell people they are idiots when they are being idiots, I don't see any reason why the DM team would talk to you about that. The player reporting you would probably get a response along the lines of "hey you need to grow a bit of a thicker skin". Or if the DM handling the case was nicer and more sensitive, they might politely ask you to tone it down a bit. It depends on the situation. There's really no "one size fits all" answer to this.

Nobody on the team is interested in policing players' private spaces. If those private spaces are being used to systematically abuse other players, that's an issue that needs to be fixed. Similarly, if the private spaces are being used to intentionally exclude players, or if they are contributing to a negative environment in-game, then that is also an issue. This tends to be from faction-based Discords who make it mandatory for new players to join and spend all of their time ranting about other players and factions. These spaces tend to bleed into the game and lead to long-term issues.

edit: Oh, regarding the OP (as you addressed them directly in your post). They have claimed that they were banned for an innocent misunderstanding caused by a "lack of body language". That isn't the case - I would be wary about taking what they say at face value. In my experience, some players can become obsessed with one small point and frame their entire defence around it. A real world comparison to this might be a serial killer who evades capture for months then gets pulled over for speeding even though they were only going 5 over the limit and uses the "I was only going 5 over the limit, this is unfair, I shouldn't be banned for only going 5 over the limit, this isn't fair at all, my friend Tim went 15 over the limit and he's not in jail" defence.

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Re: Critical Feedback...Discord, Bans and Feelings.

Post by The GrumpyCat » Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:04 pm

I'd like to put in a few words on Bans about this. 99% of what Llireth says is absolutly on point. There's just one small part I want to clarify.
“DMs don't wield the individual power to ban players - they discipline as a group after a long period of discussion. They are unlikely to even reprimand a player without reaching a group consensus about it first.
An exception is that we can and will individually ban players wherein they're very obvious griefers (e.g. running around as pantless halforcs, pvping at random whilst screaming Natzi memes) But that's fairly rare, and I doubt anyone here considers that a typical example of these sorts of bans. We're more discussing the banning of what, (without a better term) we might call 'serious players.'

Generally speaking long term bans happen only when a person has proved that they are an active detriment to the server.

This is different to 'doing something bad.'

A person who once stole an apple from a grocery store did something bad, but may still later go on to work in a grocery store, so long as he stops stealing apples.

A severe kleptomaniac cannot work in a store, because he can't help but steal all the apples.

Short term bans can work as a 'calming down period' or 'reflective period' in which we, in effect, remove someone from the environment to consider their actions, and to grow in understanding and maturity so that they can, we hope, re-enter the community.

Likewise, long term/perminent bans arn't for players that 'did a few things wrong.' They happen to players who have proven that their very play style and attitude is an antithisis of what Arelith stands for. You don't get perminently banned for 'saying one mean thing' They get perminelty banned for being a constantly toxic member of the community who cannot and will not, for all our efforts, change their ways.

The use of Discord in our investigations is, I'll admit, a little of a grey area. And the concerns mentioned by Rooshi49 are wellfounded and do hold some wight. However- so far I've observed that we tend to only use Discord either as Evidence for investigations, or in cases where it can be seen as part of a massive ongoing problem with the player(s) in question.

E.g. Let's say Jane is known to play a pc that has a ongoing fued with another set of PCs. They have an issue of jumping on people and PvPing them. A lot. With little or no respect for the PvP rules and in really cheesy ways.

We talk to Jane about this, and ask her to stop.

She keeps doing essentially the same thing.

So we talk to her again.

Same thing.

So we talk to her again, levvy a small punishment.

Same thing, doesn't listen, more issues.

We talk to her again, slightly firmer punishment:

And again she doesn't listen.

We talk to her again, levying a harsher punishment and telling her 'This is your last chance.'

We get a screen cap on Discord of her saying, 'Yeah I'm gonna get that player bob and PvP him ever day, bashing his corpse 'till he quits!'

Well, Ok we could wait patiently for that to happen, and thus loose Bob, who otherwise is a nice, unassuming player. Or we could presume that after all our warnings, conversations, and punishments she is, for whatever reason, incapable of understanding the PvP rules. She's shown a pattern of Not Getting it. She's Saying she's going to Do it. Do we really really want to hold off until she Defiantly Does It Some More to ban her?

This case was similar to that above. They had been warned repeatedly about their actions. They'd had conversations, small punishments, we'd argued over multiple angles over multiple years, and they persisted in being a detriment to the community.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

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Re: Critical Feedback...Discord, Bans and Feelings.

Post by Rooshi49 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:13 pm

Thanks for the quick response, I suppose that really answers my question as to whether or not one-off comments can get you banned.

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Re: Critical Feedback...Discord, Bans and Feelings.

Post by BegoneThoth » Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:38 pm

I've ran several servers, voice servers, Ventrilo, TeamSpeak, and a whole host of video game servers over the years (mostly fps), and let me tell you, Bans are the absolute best thing you can do when somebody gets upset.

I sympathize with our retired admin here. It's always difficult dealing with a certain small percentage of the population. Unfortunately it's always that small percentage that always takes up most of the time.

Personally I don't feel as though an apology was necessary.
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Re: Critical Feedback...Discord, Bans and Feelings.

Post by Vincent » Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:59 pm

My sympathy goes out to the dev and DM team right now. Doing everything for free while being on the receiving end of a barrage of criticism and in the case of the hacker, threats. Bans exist to keep the community happy. When someone is banned, I'm sure nine times out of ten it's because they were reported, and the case was reviewed. So, people who get banned should consider what they did to upset someone so much that they had to appeal to a higher authority. That's just my two cents.

I am considering supporting the server via Patreon and perhaps other means as volunteers just don't deserve all this pressure, lol. Thank you for everything you do, some people just forget this server isn't run by a big budget company that pays people to manage all this drama and fallout, which is a testament to how professionally Arelith is run.

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Re: Critical Feedback...Discord, Bans and Feelings.

Post by MissEvelyn » Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:02 pm

I just want to say, kudos to Liareth and the rest of the team for handling these things in such a professional manner!

Also, the 'ban-hammer' really doesn't fall lightly. I know a great number of people who are passionate and outspoken about this server, myself included, and we've at times failed to use the appropriate tone when discussing things (on the forums, in-game, or on discord), and never have I once seen the mention of a threat of being banned or anything like that, where in other gaming environments we might already have gotten at least a temp-ban simply for addressing issues with the wrong tone or choice of words (to which I admit being guilty).

Another thing I'd like to add, I am so SO grateful for the few rules we have on Arelith. The other day I was browsing another EE server's forums and I had eleven tabs open in my browser with JUST rules of that server. Not only that, those pages were extremely long and arduous to read. And many of those rules were "Ignore mechanics, RP this" to such a blatant extent.
It was then that I realized how good we have it and how extremely grateful I am for Arelith and the few, simple, and understandable rules that we have.

Finally, no matter how bad someone might have been treated, resorting to online vandalism is certainly not the answer, and it's extremely petty of the hackers. Personally, I hope they stay as far away from this server as possible. We don't need their kind in our community, not in this toxic state.
And to the staff who willingly volunteers their time and efforts here, thank you for putting up with such childish nonsense and not conforming to any of it. IF anything, Arelith is only stronger now than it was before the forums were hacked.


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Re: Critical Feedback...Discord, Bans and Feelings.

Post by MineTurtle » Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:54 pm

I'd just like to say thank you for the staff for keeping this server running and dealing with these things. Without you guys, we wouldn't have a server, and I am so sorry you're having to deal with this.

I hope this resolves itself soon and has a minimal effect on all of you as individuals and as people.

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Re: Critical Feedback...Discord, Bans and Feelings.

Post by whoisthisis » Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:38 pm

Hackers suck.

Never give in to ransom demands. Ever.

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Re: Critical Feedback...Discord, Bans and Feelings.

Post by Leshpar » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:47 am

The only single thing that I can feel worth adding here is that, although the dms do it to be professional and be courteous about things, this has had an opposite effect on people such as myself.

I've caused some trouble on arelith, enough to have been banned once and almost permabanned. So I've been through the process. What I am asking is to be more transparent, like what you're doing here. Explain the process in extensive detail. Explain what you dms do on situations. If someone posts about them being treated unfairly here, then talk about it publicly as to what they did and how the decision was reached. Its the OPs decision anyway to try to publicly shame someone (even if it was just an attempt to gain support for what he felt was an inappropriate ban).

I know you can't give exact details to people or post them publicly. But just to know, "hey, this situation has been handled." in a reply to our report, or to allow the public to see that process in a situation like this. I think it'd go a long way to improving the public's opinion of arelith dms. My opinion has been pretty low as well because I just didn't know what was going on inside.

On another paw (I play gnolls, so paw not hand), being judged by anything said in discord, especially through private messages or non arelith run discord servers I feel is unfair. My last issue that led to me being put on probation was because of a discord conversation. Discord is not run by arelith and is a 3rd party program. It really should be out of bounds to any of the dms or admin staff here to accuse or punish anyone for anything.

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Re: Critical Feedback...Discord, Bans and Feelings.

Post by TimeAdept » Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:37 am

If people abuse and break rules on Discord, they should absolutely be held accountable. It's not a rule-free zone where you get to do whatever you want just because you did it outside of the game.

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Re: Critical Feedback...Discord, Bans and Feelings.

Post by Queen Titania » Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:52 am

Hi, I am the referenced DM that carried out the removal that the OP is displeased with. One of the reasons why the process is not entirely transparent is because we are mindful of their feelings. We always tell you when we are looking into a case, and while we don't always respond that it is resolved, sometimes a case just takes a while to look into, sometimes we don't catch the player until X time, or any number of reasons, almost everything gets looked at, but sometimes we remember to also send a follow up of "This is complete".

The OP is declaring that their flagged post we used as evidence for our issue of mistreatment of their fellow players in and out of game was just a miscommunication because of lack of body language or tone, but it's quite easy to communicate tone in writing. It comes across through your diction, syntax, formality, and point of view.

Every ban decision, including the OP's, is carried out with team input. The OP ignores a lengthy history behind the decision and is focused on the immediate. The OP ignores a warning given prior to what happened, giving only their perspective. As DM's, we have the tools and resources to dig and find out both sides of a story and make a solid judgement.

We are wanting to make Arelith an enjoyable environemnt. Ultimately, if we are finding your toxicity and rulebreaking detrimental, we will remove you from the environment. Bans are very rarely given, and never without plenty of chances to improve their behavior, so this is not a problem, and the vast majority of Arelith stays within the rules happily.

The OP did not.
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Re: Critical Feedback...Discord, Bans and Feelings.

Post by Rooshi49 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:41 am

TimeAdept wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:37 am
If people abuse and break rules on Discord, they should absolutely be held accountable. It's not a rule-free zone where you get to do whatever you want just because you did it outside of the game.
I don't know about that . . . I don't think you really understand the gravitas of what you're saying here. If you make the arguement for discord then theres room to argue that if I called Susie May over the phone and told her that I really want to PVP the crud out of Billy Bob with one-liners, then it may rule breaking . . .

But I don't think it should be policed. I agree with Grumpycat that its a bit of a grey area, not something thats stamped: "DUH" about.

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Re: Critical Feedback...Discord, Bans and Feelings.

Post by Queen Titania » Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:58 am

We generally can understand when you're venting, and when OOC is crossing IC, etc. We're not attacking over a single line and can easily determine problem and just a moment of frustration.

In general, I would really not worry about what you do in your discord, but also at the same time, just be a decent human being.

In Other Words: "Be Nice". Police yourself and then no one has to worry in the first place.
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Re: Critical Feedback...Discord, Bans and Feelings.

Post by The Rambling Midget » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:12 am

Rooshi49 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:41 am
I don't know about that . . . I don't think you really understand the gravitas of what you're saying here. If you make the arguement for discord then theres room to argue that if I called Susie May over the phone and told her that I really want to PVP the crud out of Billy Bob with one-liners, then it may rule breaking . . .
As with actions in game and on the forums, it's about establishing a pattern of behavior, not punishing individual incidents. And, as has been explained multiple times, recently, these decisions are made by a collective of trusted staff members, after deliberation.

Don't think of it as "rule-breaking", or some technicality that can be argued. That's a lawyer's perspective, and, contrary to many opinions and wishes, this is not a democracy, it's a benevolent dictatorship. The tallying of rights and wrongs is not as important as the determination of whether or not certain people fit in with this community. Not everyone does, and that's not a bad thing. It just says that one single server can't cater to all tastes.

I can tell you from my personal experiences with the DMs and other staff over the years that they are not looking for reasons to kick people out. They're trying to build up the community and reshape it into whatever they believe will be the most fun for everyone. And they're only going to kick out those who they think will drive others away, preferably before they succeed in doing so.

When you focus on a single point, it can feel like the staff is trying to act as Big Brother, seeing, hearing, and judging all that you do, waiting for you to slip up so that they can swing the hammer, but if you consider and put a bit of trust in their ultimate goals, you'll see that they're making these calls to protect you.
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Re: Critical Feedback...Discord, Bans and Feelings.

Post by flower » Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:52 am

Things which cause dms to act on discord chat are same things breaking own discord terms.

I would take even step further and reported these posts to discord also next to the punishment on Arelith.

When you plan / work out harassment of someone on third party platform claims team has no right to act onto it is ridiculous.

I hope that recent hacking is going to be reported to the police. I doubt that actor in that case had been any great proffi and I am certain they could track that person down.

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Re: Critical Feedback...Discord, Bans and Feelings.

Post by Liareth » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:32 am

Rooshi49 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:41 am
TimeAdept wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:37 am
If people abuse and break rules on Discord, they should absolutely be held accountable. It's not a rule-free zone where you get to do whatever you want just because you did it outside of the game.
I don't know about that . . . I don't think you really understand the gravitas of what you're saying here. If you make the arguement for discord then theres room to argue that if I called Susie May over the phone and told her that I really want to PVP the crud out of Billy Bob with one-liners, then it may rule breaking . . .

But I don't think it should be policed. I agree with Grumpycat that its a bit of a grey area, not something thats stamped: "DUH" about.
Conversations like these are all about hypotheticals involving trash talking other players in semi-private areas. "I should be able to do anything I want to do in my own home" - this is the mantra of lawbreakers worldwide. These players just have to be a decent people rather than acting like they're in a high school drama and the other player just stole their boyfriend. None of this is an issue to people who don't regularly trash talk other people and broadcast it to a semi-private group. Just don't do it - and then it's not an issue that anyone has to worry about.

My opinion is this - to go back to what GrumpyCat said - if you've been griefing Billy Bob repeatedly and been warned about it multiple times and then you call Susie May and tell her that you're going to grief Billy Bob again and she contacts us with evidence - then yes, that should be used against you, and you should be stopped *before* you grief Billy Bob.

It doesn't matter WHERE the threat was made. The medium is irrelevant. All that matters is the threat is CREDIBLE and IN LINE WITH HISTORICAL TRENDS. The team isn't perfect, so rarely that might result in false positives (which are solved during the appeals process). Occasional false positives are a lesser evil than waiting for bad players, who we know are about to do bad things to other players based on credible evidence and backed up by historical trends, do bad things to other players just so they can be punished.

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