Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

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Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by goatte » Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:58 pm

Folks, I have really enjoyed RPing with others on the Arelith servers, besides just interacting with the incredible content put forth by the developers and DMs. I last played NWN over 12 years ago, and from the start I was impressed by the open, welcoming environment here.

I'd like to put forth a proposal and a request to the players, based upon my experiences on the servers.

Proposal: A corollary to the "Be Kind" rule -- "Be considerate"
I have RP'd with some incredibly kind players on this server. Players willing to share treasures found, gold earned, and, most importantly, their time interacting with my characters. Being resurrected from the dead many times, healed by characters not even connected to mine. I once had an incredibly kind player use their character to cast invisibility on mine because mine was hesitating to approach a cluster of three massive grizzlies. I really appreciate the player for that kindness. However, was it considerate?

If we define "consideration" as putting another's feelings, experiences, and wellness ahead of our own, perhaps we could better define if the other player was considerate? Please note that I am not slamming the other player "in any way." They met the rules for "be kind" and then some. I will defend them to others for that. What I am asking is if we could perhaps do more by initiating a rule of "be considerate." If you see another player near death, and they're not screaming blue murder for help, do you walk up and heal them without RP? I've been the victim of, and the "other driver," in cases of "drive-by-healing." I'm not proud of it, but I honestly didn't think of the other player's opportunity to RP. I was often in a hurry, but I should have slowed down and let the other player tell their character's story: how they got these wounds, how their character felt, etc. I had robbed the other player and myself of a good opportunity to RP it out. Now, I always ask if they need aid before using a heal kit or casting a healing spell. The player who did that incredible act of kindness and I both lost out on an opportunity to RP collaboratively.

Another act of "being considerate" is sharing the stage. In acting, we have "scene stealers" and "scenery chewers." Let us define scene stealers as those actors who prevent other actors from giving their lines effectively and telling their character's stories and scenery chewers as those who wreck the scenery that others spent time and effort building for the movie and may need for later scenes. I'm guilty of being a scene stealer. I've let my own enjoyment take from others' time on the servers. And the time we spend on these servers is precious to all of us.

Example: you spend RL days crafting an item, and you set it out on the land. Within the week it is destroyed or stolen. All that time when you could have been RPing or grinding is lost with no positive outcome because another player decides that their character's role is to be an antagonist or rebel. Did the rebel/antagonist's story trump the crafter's story? Was one's story more valuable than another's? Was the rebel/antagonist being considerate? Did the rebel/antagonist take the time to send tells or PMs through the forum to the other player that they though of something cool to do with both their characters and get "buy in" from the other(s)? I came from pen and paper Dungeons & Dragons, and if someone had done that at the table when we played D&D, there would have been a lot of heartburn, potentially threats that all involved would later regret.

If you experience this from the other side, can you trust that player who did it without warning? And trust is what enables us to get along on the server when we don't have each other's faces before us to understand when we're joking around, working toward some awesome collaborative roleplay, or just genuinely embarrassed for an honest mistake.

Request:
Finally, (Yes. You all can breathe a sigh of relief that this wordy jerk is finally coming to a conclusion. ;) ) I'd like to make a proposal that we discuss ways here (on the forum) to improve communications for collaborative roleplay. Truly awesome roleplay requires consent of all parties beforehand. No one likes losing what little precious time that they have to play on this server, with all the RL claims against our time (family, friends, job, school, and others) that limit some of us to only a few hours each week. It's one big "sand box" that we have here, and we need to give each other space and time to tell our own stories. So, please weigh in folks. Am I whacked? Am I on to something? Am I just ticked off because of (some obscure example)?

[Oh, and please be kind to others here. I respect all of you, and I hope you all respect me even when you disagree with what I have to say. Let's not dig up specifics of past bad behavior in this post but put forth suggestions for how we can all improve.]
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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by Ork » Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:47 pm

Personally I like a lot of what you say, but Arelith shouldn't require players "requesting" to do things in the game world. It's a collaborative story and sometimes that means loss. It's more compelling to see loss being taken in stride.

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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by MissEvelyn » Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:09 pm

Ork wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:47 pm
Personally I like a lot of what you say, but Arelith shouldn't require players "requesting" to do things in the game world. It's a collaborative story and sometimes that means loss. It's more compelling to see loss being taken in stride.
I have to agree with Ork. With everything. Both that what you're saying deserves a read and consideration in how we carry ourselves, but also, I would like to see less players requesting things in the game world OOCly and more getting it done in-game and in character.


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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by Capt.shadow » Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:22 pm

Ok first am guilty of the part of drive by healing, i see someone stumbling along bleeding heavly or near death and with out any need,rp or any incentive(this was the UD server) just casualy heal them, some times i rp or if i was in a rush i just drop a healing circle and then shuffel off, infact now that i think on it i casualy bring back the dead when i encountred a players corpse, but i remmber this one time a players character comes into the hub and i casualy walked up and healed them then went *your fine now* just as i siad that they posted this very nicely composed emote of there injuries and such and them staggering into the hub, muttering words...all i got back was *blinks..at the fact her mortal wounds are gone and all sense of drama* my heart sank, they clearly had a whoile thing lined up for the first person that ineracted with them and all i could do was swear and feel my heart crash down, here was someone acutaly doing some bloody rp by putting there own character on the weakend of the scales and i just took that from them becouse..i thought they where some low level that needed a hand. so if no one else gets you there..i do i still feel bad for that time and worse since i didnt have the Pufferfish to OOC tell them a sorry or anything for just takeing a wee thing they had, heck for all i know was there first attempt at properly doing something like that :(, so you have a point and i feel the need to put my two cents in.

as for communication, i try and drop tells here and IG on play times and pass the ideas ball, but i noticed lot of folks just sorta want to throw a new idea in the mix and see where the chips fall and i can heartly approve of this method very organic and avoid snowflakes since its a story thats adapts to the world and people they meet around them, but others in groups i noticed tend to have a set goal and things and sorta avoid anything outside that goal becouse they want there idea and maybe they have time constriants on them and just dont want to get distracted, but i agree it be fun to see more folk talking on how to mesh up there ideas also might help with conflict if two groups set ooc aims for there faction so the conflict as a end point rather than fighting till one sides walks away due to OOC stress of it all. but in my time here lot of folk turn off OOC becouse they get lot of heat or hate from other folks part of diffrent groups or they get too well liked folk just spamm them pointless mails of "hey hows you?" and if you got 4-5 folk doing that then crafting harvesting or just unwinding doing a solo run becomes a bogged down and distracteing, when that stuff should be for the fourms or out side lines of talking. not saying it shouldnt happen just shareing why some folk might keep there OOC thing off. or avoid talking in pms.

Now for respect could be doing bit more, its the reason i avoid the discord chat..i went on once and just got trashed by a player for saying my thoughts on a class. no idea if i was wrong or they was right but i do feel it could of been handled better on boths sides, best you can do is report the big offences to DM, while it never feels like its working it dose keepthe worst offenders inline, server cant adapt if you dont report rule breaking or folk that are showing a heavy disrespect to other players and the server as a whole.

Ideas.
best i can come up with is that factions depending on city/area before any kind of conflict starts, should log it with the DM so they can keep notes expand the story of siad conflict so it matchs the players and folk invovled?, or least the DM ware of who might be fighting who and when rules are broken etc, they can least have a basic idea of what may of went down.

now i know lot of folks will shoot me down for dareing to suggest this, but maybe just maybe if death meant something if perma death was a thing and we all risked loseing our characters when the DM calls the storyline over and the dead stay dead..maybe folk would respect each other little more, as i found server present and past that had a perma death system for when players get into a conflict thats big enough and has a climax they keep killed characters killed, i noticed it creats a sronger role play and a big need for respect since your big scary toon could easily be wiped out and perma killed if a bunch of players logged the conflict with the DM and they hung around to see if its worthy of such a thing. also it make war,conflict assassnation all acutaly matter in the grand scheme and your not going to be the a cool assassin your going to be a nervouse wreck of one fueled by paranoia and fear if this was your last run, if your target turns the scales and takes you out, it encurage players to speak with other players that are playing the hostile side to make up some ooc guidlines to there conflict or speak with a DM on what would siad guidlines and goals.

personaly some of my best characters i rped died bleeding out alone in a cold backallway and since the player who did it was pretty cool and thanked me for my death via ooc tell and the DM give me a wee send off in the afterlife..it made things worth it and matter in the end and i respected the player for there choices, as my actions did have consequences and i learned that the hard way.

(TL.DR)
try shooting the player a tell IG get talking, that fials, well gotta adapt, if there truely toxic, screenshot, send them to the DM email and they can deal with it.

sorry if thats wasnt much in the way of ideas for your topic. but i do say little respect and some ooc convo goes a long way to makeing things bit better for the players and the community, i bug the DM all the time if its a DM related thing.

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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by Echohawk » Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:43 pm

goatte wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:58 pm
...Being resurrected from the dead many times, healed by characters not even connected to mine. I once had an incredibly kind player use their character to cast invisibility on mine because mine was hesitating to approach a cluster of three massive grizzlies. I really appreciate the player for that kindness. However, was it considerate?
Being likely the debbie downer for this threat, I have to contest a pretty basic feature, we're not mind readers.
It would be nice to send tells to everyone, but it's very easy to be on no tells, then what are you supposed to do?
Some people are running around and you can explain things in character, but I sure wouldn't take someone trying to do something to help me out as a personal affront to my playtime experience. It's more common that I will be absolutely abused before I'll find someone who actually is helpful or kind, so to make them think twice or make them hesitate that I wouldn't want their help seems absolutely out of character conflict that doesn't even need to exist.

If a character helps you and you didn't want it, have the character react accordingly, it's been done more than a few times! If anything we need to keep things more in character rather than more out of character. The reasoning behind the 'be nice rule' is to ensure that when people are genuinely being awful that they do have a mandate they can point to and say 'this is what you're not doing' and smack them on the proverbial wrist. Not something that should shame people who behave in characterly even if their motives might be just good intentions.

IMO - tl;dr - more ic, less ooc.
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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by TheOpticalMouse » Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:41 am

A good example of this is that, in an attempt to get my hiatus explained away in an IG sense, I had my char collapse in the street. As other players were trying to actually RP it, some other char walked up, hit me with a resto, went "You're better now" and walked off. Note: I was mechanically uninjured at the time.

Like, excuse me for not wanting to treat illness and injury as a mild inconvenience because magic exists. I was extremely upset and basically felt like I was given a massive middle finger, and I know for a fact the player in question has no guilt for their inconsiderate action. I continued as though it hadn't happened, but the fact is that it was very off-putting, rude, and selfish.

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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by Black Wendigo » Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:35 am

I don't think we should be taking this too hard though. All of the above is no big deal compared to some of the crap I've seen people do to each other. Id be more interested in things like not treating PCs like NPCs and not blocking or destroying other peoples' rp. BUT I would not make it a "rule" because such things I feel can be covered under Be Nice rule under "abusive rp".

THer is a distinct lack of common respect for other players that Ive been seeing lately and I really wish people would kind take a step back and think about what they are doing a little more.

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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:44 pm

Ork wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:47 pm
Personally I like a lot of what you say, but Arelith shouldn't require players "requesting" to do things in the game world. It's a collaborative story and sometimes that means loss. It's more compelling to see loss being taken in stride.
Ork you just spit straight fire.
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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by Ork » Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:45 pm

TheOpticalMouse wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:41 am
I was extremely upset and basically felt like I was given a massive middle finger, and I know for a fact the player in question has no guilt for their inconsiderate action. I continued as though it hadn't happened, but the fact is that it was very off-putting, rude, and selfish.
I agree with everything here, Optical and I think OP brings up a lot of good points about this sort of behavior. It is frustrating when players snub our roleplay hooks because those hooks are usually delivered for a chance of invested roleplay. I know these frustrations can often consume us and I've been culpable of rage-quitting after these instances. After a few years I've become very protective of my emotions on Arelith. I refuse to become frustrated by someone's lazy roleplay and often go out of my way to instigate the depth of roleplay I'm craving at that moment.

I by no means am criticizing you, Optical, but I do want to present an alternative to that frustration. Instead of refusing that character's restoration, often times it's better to roll with it. I mean in this situation you could leap up from the ground and become overly ecstatic that your character's been healed from a longtime injury. Your character could become obsessed with this healer and demand his/her name and proclaim this healer's skill in curing your injury. Become too vocal to ignore. Will people ignore it? Sure, but who cares. You pried the roleplay you craved through force despite the lazy roleplayer's response.

This is just an example and there are other ways we can forcibly hook players into our roleplay. If they don't buy in? You get to give them the middle finger this time and find someone else that will.

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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by goatte » Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:17 pm

Thank you all for commenting and sharing your viewpoints, folks. I appreciate you all taking your time to type it out here, when you could be playing.
Ork wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:45 pm
This is just an example and there are other ways we can forcibly hook players into our roleplay. If they don't buy in? You get to give them the middle finger this time and find someone else that will.
Ork, this just sounds too much like attempted coercion. No consent involved. I hope I'm just misinterpreting your words. Some players are unable to join in with some levels of RP or unwilling based on time constraints or their own concerns. When I roleplay a druid, I don't expect others to get all the levels of my roleplay, nor to care about them. If my character sees destroyed plants, few will "get" the rage he feels. I accept and embrace that because it is the nature of consent and choice. I embrace the fact that folks have the choice not to interact with my characters because I respect others and their choices and believe that their time and effort matters.

Honest collaboration requires consent of all parties involved, IMHO. If I were to see someone acting out a scene of slaves being tortured in the UD, I will turn away and refuse to be involved because I find it morally repugnant, even in a pretend world. I would not rain on the other's parades by harassing them. I would just refuse to interact. My choice. Others would say "his loss." I accept that.

Consent matters. You might say that by playing on the server, I consent to all RP that takes place here. d.

*****

Let's use an analogy of toys and childhood (witnessed first hand happening to others as a much younger goatte). You bring some of those little green army men toys that you find in bags in dollar stores and Walmart in the U.S. You go to a friend's house, and you set them up outside and play pretend war. However, you have a favorite that you painted up because you thought it was cool. Your friend puts a fire cracker on that one and blows it up. How do you feel? He didn't ask you to do it, nor warn you. No consent nor communication. Could you say that bringing the toys over to your friend's house implied consent to anything he wanted to do? Would you be justified in taking what remained and leaving and never coming back? Should there have been rules or clear communication beforehand to prevent this situation from arising? Or to allow for a better outcome for all involved? What if the friend asking the first party about using one of the little green plastic men, and the first party gave up one that he didn't feel much for?

*****

Our characters are those "little green plastic figures," folks. Some we feel less for, and some we feel more for, based on effort and time spent growing/grooming. Others likely won't see it, so perhaps communication can help us all understand what is felt about our "toys."

Last comment (I swear): From the comments of others and yourself, I see that many folks like spontaneous twists to the narrative, so that we can be both writers and readers in this experience. I respect that viewpoint. How do you deal with those who prefer the writer's experience over the reader's? And vice versa?
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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by Ork » Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:23 pm

goatte wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:17 pm
Ork, this just sounds too much like attempted coercion. No consent involved.
This is totally coercion & no consent needs to be involved. This is roleplay after all. When you log on you consent to being roleplayed at. Don't have time to roleplay? Log off. I disagree vehemently to that line of thinking.

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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by goatte » Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:35 pm

Ork wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:23 pm
goatte wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:17 pm
Ork, this just sounds too much like attempted coercion. No consent involved.
This is totally coercion & no consent needs to be involved. This is roleplay after all. When you log on you consent to being roleplayed at. Don't have time to roleplay? Log off. I disagree vehemently to that line of thinking.
Then how is this different from griefing? I honestly can't perceive a difference from your words. I really hope I am misinterpreting/misunderstanding them.

Also, how does that allow for sharing the stage if you have cast others in roles, with which they are not comfortable?

Please go back and read my entire post once you have the time to do so. Think it through and then post. I respect your right to disagree and appreciate the time you and others take to read and respond.
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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by Ork » Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:46 pm

I have read through your whole post prior to responding and I still disagree with it. I defend my statements in that roleplay is the #1 rule on this server. If you as a player are unwilling to roleplay, there's something wrong. I can "push" and you can "push" back. I don't have to gain your consent to "push", but there is a limit to how forceful that "push" is. It's up to the DMs to determine if a player truly griefing, but I believe that if your core value is to foster roleplay - you can't be griefing.

Griefing in my eyes is OOC in nature and the desire to systematically cause harm to a player's "fun", which is not what I am advertising.

No one owns the playground we play in save the Devs and the DMs. Your toy soldiers analogy is weak in that no one can take away your character's actions. You decide how they act alone. I can't make my character MAKE you act the way I expect when I "push".

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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by StrykerMontgomery » Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:27 pm

Hence no "god emoting". Honestly the cleric which casted restoration, in his mind, was perfectly IC. He believed the problem as solved as the spell SHOULD have done that. Actually him walking away as if it was nothing gave you lee way to not have his RP forced upon you. Because rather than having an OOC and, or IC debate with him about the nature of DnD and healing magic vs real life injuries, (the physics ot DnD is literally different the real life by the way, space isnt even cold) he promptly left the situation allowing you to play it out as you see fit.

Honestly, I disagree with "island RP" (people being free to RP only who they are comfortable with in their own little world). I understand Arelith does not disagree, at least not actively, but consideration is a two way street. That guy may have some obligation/oath to heal the sick with an introvert personality that prefers to avoid interacting with people. As much as he may have been temporarily "center stage", by ignoring the effects of restoration, you have not allowed him to be center stage (even though that is what a cleric normally is in this situation). You are not wrong in doing so, I just don't think either side took the high road in being considerate. He was not considerate of the story you were trying to create, you were not being considerate of your concept/roleplay you were trying to create in the midst of a fantasy setting where healing magic exists.

Don't get me wrong, he sound like a little bit of a dick, but he was staying true to character/lore and you just ignored said power of said character. Although somethings perhaps can nkt be solved by greater restoration, if so then all those characters trying to help have a good chance to unable to help you as well lore wise (since none if them can cast wish/miracle).
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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by StrykerMontgomery » Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:27 pm

EDIT

accident double post.
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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by Marsi » Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:48 pm

Ork wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:46 pm
I have read through your whole post prior to responding and I still disagree with it. I defend my statements in that roleplay is the #1 rule on this server. If you as a player are unwilling to roleplay, there's something wrong. I can "push" and you can "push" back. I don't have to gain your consent to "push", but there is a limit to how forceful that "push" is. It's up to the DMs to determine if a player truly griefing, but I believe that if your core value is to foster roleplay - you can't be griefing.

Griefing in my eyes is OOC in nature and the desire to systematically cause harm to a player's "fun", which is not what I am advertising.

No one owns the playground we play in save the Devs and the DMs. Your toy soldiers analogy is weak in that no one can take away your character's actions. You decide how they act alone. I can't make my character MAKE you act the way I expect when I "push".
Everything Ork said.

Roleplay your character and foster the enjoyment of your fellow player. No need to overthink it. But there will come a time when these microcosms that refuse the shared reality of the server must be broken in on by irrefutable truths (PvP, settlement mechanics, etc, if all else fails) because the narrative wills it.

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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:10 pm

ORK KEEP GOING
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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:34 pm

I find the spirit behind your post to be one worth reading and factoring into daily log-ins and play. We should all hope that everyone around us can enjoy and benefit from our contributions to their story.

However, I feel there is a fine line here. I'd particularly like to touch on the subject of healers (of which I don't play, although I do have a well-versed "field medic" character capable of mundane triage and emergency mundane medical treatment).

Let us consider the healing archetype. We'll take it a step further and make this character a Priest of Ilmater with the healing domain.

This character's story and background are centralized around the premise of their faith and their faith's directive to ease the suffering of others and bring healing to them (mundane or magical). Their god gives them the miraculous ability to heal wounds and cure diseases and conditions. In this case, it is a driving part of the story behind their character.

While it can seem "lame," to hand-wave away a fatal wound to the stomach or a punctured lung, it can be equally inconsiderate to make this player feel lame for attempting to follow their character dictates, and the player themselves has put much effort into creating the character, gaining gear and power, and the ability to do just that- pray for your healing, regardless of the amount of damage.

There is a middle ground here. They can bring you back up to "Uninjured status," but they cannot deprive you of your own agency to continue RP'ing a condition or lingering debilitation as you see fit. In this case, however, for a character whose sole existence is dedicated to the faith and miracles of a healing deity, that could also be seen as inconsiderate to ignore their attempt to follow their dictates.

I agree with a sentiment earlier in this thread- I believe the good middle ground here in which you can "be nice" AND "considerate" to both sides of the equation is to handle the "unwanted healing" (for whatever reasons may apply) In-Character.

React negatively IC, and if you feel the need to reassure and cooperate OOC, let them know why what happened was important to your character without depriving them of their agency to heal you, which they may have spent weeks, months, or years developing the ability for- and you might both be able to make something great out of the incident, IC.

For my part, OOC I am just as turned off by incidents of people who ignore healing (because faith-based healing is very much a HUGE part of this world) as those who ignore the desires of people to play injured/debilitated conditions, and I quickly find a way to extricate myself from both sides when they are intent on "winning" their disagreement OOC.
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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by StrykerMontgomery » Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:54 pm

Roll a crippled/sick/whatever cursed by the gods.
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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by ltlukoziuz » Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:08 am

Aye. I have a character who is ravaged by a birth disease and is an elf who lived for almost four hundred years. First of all - many people don't read examines, and it is worrisome. Only about every fifth new person that the character meets reacts to his scarred face, or raspy voice, or the slow walking motion. The examine is specifically written so that I didn't have to repeat 2-4 sentences everytime I see a new face. However, if they do notice it, I've noticed most go exactly how they should - they try to help, I laugh at them and tell my story, some try poking deeper at my backstory, some try to force me to visit Winter's Rest, some just leave me be.

The important thing is - I control how he fares. No matter if they offer coffee or other hot drink, or throw a resto, or think of another matter (although most were minor as of yet), I will continue roleplaying like their attempts didn't hold effect. His parents dragged him as a babe for over 50 years looking for a miracle, a simple resto will be far from enough to cure this. I haven't seen anyone who disrespected that wish, although I am a bit sad I met no one who was strongly attached to an idea to cure me either.

So my point is simple - don't give into god emoting and lose your agency, and don't just expect first thing you throw to work - 5-minute storylines are boring. Stick a bit after you do or say something.


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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by goatte » Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:52 am

Marsi wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:48 pm
Roleplay your character and foster the enjoyment of your fellow player. No need to overthink it. But there will come a time when these microcosms that refuse the shared reality of the server must be broken in on by irrefutable truths (PvP, settlement mechanics, etc, if all else fails) because the narrative wills it.
Very good points, Marsi.

"foster the enjoyment of your fellow player"

"must be broken in on by irrefutable truths ... because the narrative wills it."

Are these two concepts compatible?

Who makes the narrative? A few players or all players? The DMs and the Devs? A combination? More senior players only? Those with epic characters only?

Also, only a few folks touched on communication. I wonder if folks just want their immersion in the character and to avoid seeing the players behind the character. I can understand the need to be immersed to really RP well, but how do the other players really understand where you're trying to take it, while keeping emotion out of it.

I can see that my proposal and suggestion have really angered some on the forum, and for that I apologize for having hurt other's feelings. I will step back now and let others control the discussion in this thread. I've made my points, and I would like to hear from those who haven't posted, yet, to share their opinions, feelings, and experiences without it being dominated by just a few individuals with strong opinions, myself included.

Edit:

Apparently, this was discussed in a similar thread about a year ago, and I didn't find it until I dug even deeper on the topic. It is worth the read, IMHO:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=13685
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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:17 am

Marsi wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:48 pm
because the narrative wills it.
I think I see what you did there.
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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by WinkinBlinkin » Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:32 am

There are a lot of people who seem to think that being considerate of other people's feelings equates to encouraging people to be whiny little "snowflakes". It doesn't. We should all aim, surely, to make sure that the people around us have as much fun as possible, potentially requiring us to balance this against the direction we perceive the narrative to be travelling. There will be many times when those around us fail to do this, either through malice or a lack of consideration or even through a different interpretation of the narrative. The correct response to this should not be to go out of our way to purposefully create and impose consequences upon them that we fondly imagine they will not like. An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.

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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by Marsi » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:53 pm

goatte wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:52 am
Marsi wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:48 pm
Roleplay your character and foster the enjoyment of your fellow player. No need to overthink it. But there will come a time when these microcosms that refuse the shared reality of the server must be broken in on by irrefutable truths (PvP, settlement mechanics, etc, if all else fails) because the narrative wills it.
Very good points, Marsi.

"foster the enjoyment of your fellow player"

"must be broken in on by irrefutable truths ... because the narrative wills it."

Are these two concepts compatible?

Who makes the narrative? A few players or all players? The DMs and the Devs? A combination? More senior players only? Those with epic characters only?

Also, only a few folks touched on communication. I wonder if folks just want their immersion in the character and to avoid seeing the players behind the character. I can understand the need to be immersed to really RP well, but how do the other players really understand where you're trying to take it, while keeping emotion out of it.

I can see that my proposal and suggestion have really angered some on the forum, and for that I apologize for having hurt other's feelings. I will step back now and let others control the discussion in this thread. I've made my points, and I would like to hear from those who haven't posted, yet, to share their opinions, feelings, and experiences without it being dominated by just a few individuals with strong opinions, myself included.

Edit:

Apparently, this was discussed in a similar thread about a year ago, and I didn't find it until I dug even deeper on the topic. It is worth the read, IMHO:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=13685
The points are compatible because if someone's enjoyment derives from, at their core, anti- collaborative storytelling sentiment, it becomes difficult and unnecessary to acquire their "consent" if they want to be involved in the shared narrative. It is certainly possible to find niches of RP where one can hermetically seal themselves from others and play toy soldiers by themselves (or with like-minded players), but problems arise when they grow out of it, decide to interact with the world at large, yet still carry the "don't rp at me bro" mentality. Or, the spaces they set up in suddenly become political or conflict-oriented (remembering of course that everywhere is full PvP on the server besides arenas).

Arelith players with any kind of perspective have something of an antipathy for promotion of that sort of play-style, as the server, lacking a central authority on truth with the absence of traditional DMing, utterly depends on players' accepting the shared reality they participate in. Without that, or without an apparatus to at last achieve the forcing of wills (PvP, settlement mechanics), it's nothing more than a text forum.

That said, as I argue in the old thread you linked, rarely has the Arelith story been decided by unfulfilling PvP. It's almost always the stronger and more magnetic storyteller who proves the ultimate victor. Everywhere are graveyards of individuals or groups over the years who believed might makes right, who brandished tools like PvP and settlement mechanics to force their vision with no concern for their fellow players. It doesn't work because people don't gravitate towards stuff that isn't fun or creative. Despite the chaos of shared storytelling, there's amusingly something of a invisible hand in the free market of roleplay (I use this analogy way too much) that is able to bestow or deny legitimacy to a narrative force. A group of strong PvPers who want to take over by literal force might beat their opposition in physical confrontation, but when faced with administration and building the story thereafter, they'll fade from the history books and be quickly built over by the next. However a strong roleplayer who plays an IG evil such as a fascist tyrant but whom actually roleplays all facets of such a regime in an involving and fun way will find themselves heaped upon with attention, legitimacy and historical importance.

Let's say this strong roleplayer and his regime take over a certain part of the server. There's a holdout of those before mentioned "don't rp at me bro" crowd who want to stick around and ignore the new housekeepers but all the while voice IC frustration and dissent that their self-concerned RP has been disrupted. They want their way but aren't willing to see through the consequences of their actions -- namely, to be killed in PvP and to be tossed out of the city. If they can't comply with the protocols of a shared story, asking for consent and trying to communicate isn't going to get anywhere because ultimately what they want is for there to not be a shared story. The regime has taken control, other server forces have voiced their support or condemnation, lines are drawn, battles are had and so everyone takes their places on the stage and implicitly agrees upon this turn of events as the correct and most legitimate sequence in the narrative. So when these microcosms playing toy soldiers find themselves before this warpath, unwilling to acknowledge it or move, the narrative "wills" itself onward and through them. This is of course getting a little cerebral and it's totally subjective as to whom is and isn't legitimate and deserving of airtime, but like I said, the server population at large has a funny way of best, if slowly, determining what should and shouldn't be.

---

Honestly, things like communication and being considerate are far more widespread values than you might think, and while they don't centrally feature in some of the arguments posed here, they are just taken for granted by anyone with an RPR of 20 or higher. In my experience it's more often than not the defendant rather than the aggressor who spurns communication in favour of angsty behaviour that shows an over-attachment to one's character. There's then no choice but to employ PvP, eviction or exile. It's often better to just counsel staying IC, like Ork says, as this means shadow rules like consent or conflict requesting don't spread -- communication and consent is great and what makes a balanced roleplayer, but it isn't actually a requirement of us besides the stipulations of the Be Nice rule.

Why should the great bell of Beaulieu toll when the shadows were neither short nor long?


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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by Echohawk » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:28 pm

Image

I really wish passive aggressive crap like this could be ended personally. If we're going to go on about being 'courteous', because there's some people playing who seem to lack common sense or decency.
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