Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Discussions related to character builds and mechanics may occur here.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs

Hydranis
Posts: 94
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:00 am

Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by Hydranis » Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:12 am

I've been thinking of rolling up a spellcaster, but can't decide which to use. Sorcerer gets more spells per day, but Wizard can essentially learn ALL of the spells.

What are, in your opinion, the pros and cons to both?

User avatar
Cortex
Posts: 3553
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:12 pm

Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by Cortex » Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:36 am

Sorcerer
Pros:
IGMS Turret
No spellbook shuffling
Lots of the same powerful spells like mass haste

Cons:
Feat starved
Utility is limited to what spells they pick
Harder to play to maximum efficiency

Wizard
Pros:
Cast what you want
Can prepare proper for dungeons/PvP
Lots of feats and focuses to pick from
Biggest skill point pool
Easier to tank up with gear and EMA

Cons:
Less spells
Might run out of spells you need and have ones you don't need on certain situations
Spellbook shuffling
Nerd
:)

Hydranis
Posts: 94
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:00 am

Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by Hydranis » Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:58 am

What is IGMS?

What is spell book shuffling? Do you mean having to go into your book and spell slot?

User avatar
Cortex
Posts: 3553
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:12 pm

Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by Cortex » Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:01 am

Meet the bread and butter of all mages, Isaac's Greater Missile Storm, capped to 10 missiles per target in Arelith because it's just that overpowered in its vanilla form, and still amazingly good nerfed.

Normal IGMS, empowered IGMS, maximized IGMS, all metamagics that will make your IGMS explode people into smitherins. Doing an average of 70 damage normally, 100 empowered and 120 maximized on single/two targets. The missiles are split between all enemies, so any more enemies other than 2 its power diminishes.

And spellbook shuffling is just a minor nuisance of having to change your spellbook back and forth for the situation, forgetting something, fixing that, forgeting something again, etc.
:)

Tourmaline
Posts: 308
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:51 am

Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by Tourmaline » Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:11 am

If it's your first, go wizard. More feats, more skill points, access to all of the spells.. (Be a generalist, don't pick a spell school by the way.) I think sorcerers are kind of better in PVP but wizards are better jack-of-all-trade characters. Arelith also greatly rewards you for going deep into spell focuses and a wizard can easily take 4, a sorcerer probably only 2.

Keep in mind most of what you do in this game is repeat the same activities over and over, which is why wizards kind of excel. You can cast fewer spells a day but you quickly learn exactly what works and have a bigger toolbox to use to do it.

Hydranis
Posts: 94
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:00 am

Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by Hydranis » Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:24 am

Makes sense, thank you!

Void
Posts: 1600
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:03 pm

Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by Void » Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:02 pm

Hydranis wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:12 am
I've been thinking of rolling up a spellcaster, but can't decide which to use. Sorcerer gets more spells per day, but Wizard can essentially learn ALL of the spells.

What are, in your opinion, the pros and cons to both?
Wizard have to buy or find scroll to learn spells, and it can get tiresome, along with spellbook management.

SOrcerer can act as a "turret" and if a sorcerer knows metamagic, he/she can spam a single spell many more times than a wizard would be able to.

For example, you could shoot few normal fireballs, then few stilled ones, then few empowered ones, then few maximized ones, then few quickened ones. A 14th level sorcerer will be able to spam fireball AT LEAST 26 times in a row this way. A wizard will never be able to do something like that.

However, you need to know which spell has which effect and be familiar to magic system in general.

And yeah, wizards get more skillpoints (simply due to high ints), and more bonus feats, and are more flexible (as in they can prepare different set of spells).

I typically prefer sorcerer (because I hate dealing with spellbook management), but different people have different tastes, and a wizard is probably a better choice if you never dealt with nwn magic system before.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

Hydranis
Posts: 94
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:00 am

Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by Hydranis » Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:43 pm

Well, thank you for all the help. I just rolled up a Sorcerer today!

MoreThanThree
Posts: 476
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2015 11:06 pm

Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by MoreThanThree » Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:42 pm

Cortex wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:36 am

Might run out of spells you need and have ones you don't need on certain situations
what is scribe scroll and craft wand
20 RPR GANG

User avatar
Cortex
Posts: 3553
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:12 pm

Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by Cortex » Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:57 pm

MoreThanThree wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:42 pm
Cortex wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:36 am

Might run out of spells you need and have ones you don't need on certain situations
what is scribe scroll and craft wand
Things that cannot mimic high DCs or CL.
:)

Anomander
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:22 pm

Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by Anomander » Wed May 02, 2018 7:08 pm

I think sorcerer's are trickier to play well for a couple of reasons.

-You need to be very deliberate about your spell & feat selections because you have so few.

-One of the primary advantages of sorc, flexibility through metamagic and spell slots across spell levels instead of pre-prepared spells is quite challenging to leverage effectively. You have to remember what slot goes to which spell, and if you empower something what are you cannibalizing later that you might need. It's very easy to screw yourself out of an important spell by casting one too many of another.

I prefer sorcerer myself but I do like the utility of having any spell under the sun available to me that the Wizard gets. Both are lots of fun :)

StrykerMontgomery
Posts: 371
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:14 pm

Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by StrykerMontgomery » Mon May 14, 2018 5:28 am

Roleplay wise one is smarter as the other is more of a force of personality. Like bluff/disguising yourseld will be much easier as a sorceror.

THE BIGGEST ADVANTAGE OF SPONTANEOUS CASTERS IS THE ABILITY TO BE SPONTANEOUS NOT MORE SPELLS PER DAY

Mechanics wise the flexibility vs more spells is kind of a lie. I will explain why in a bit.

First off, unless you are going for the whole "learn all spells knowledge seeker" always be a specialist wizard. There is a reason why in PnP DnD that you need to have TWO prohibited schools as a specialist wizard. Neverwinter nights is extremely forgiving in this regard. Your extra spell slot doesn't even need to be in the school you are a specialist in, so essentially all you have to do is pick one school not to cast in and you cast more spells than a sorcerer.. wait what did I just say?

A lvl 5 specialist wizard casts more spells per day than a lvl 5 sorceror. Why? Because you not only are casting higher lvl spells but just gained three spell slots in your newer tier of spell casting. Lvl 6 sorceror will be slightly ahead of you but you will be laughing again at lvl 7.

Wizard will also outclass in skill points and feats. A pure wizard specialist, who knows whay he is doing with a good deal of akill and planning involved, outclasses a sorcerer on the books in so many ways. Especially since greater spell focus evocation or conjuration solves your limited spells per day problems.

I ironically, contrary to popular belief, consided the sorcerer's strength to be flexibility.

Good luck counterspelling on the fly as a wizard, a sorceor just needs to know the various dispels and can lock you down hard with no preprep.

Meta magic is also way more flexible for a sorceror and why in PnP DnD it makes soells take a little longer to cast for spontaneous casters (which you don't suffer in nwn) If you posses still and silent metamagic feats, you can be in a roleplay situation where you are tied or gagged and still have the option to rain destruction down upon your foes without having to prepare ahead of time.
Currently played characters:
Have not played for over a year, thinking of returning again

User avatar
susitsu
Posts: 1190
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 7:09 pm

Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by susitsu » Mon May 14, 2018 11:49 am

Wizards are definitely easier to play based on many, many things including faster spell progression than a sorcerer by a level.

User avatar
Cortex
Posts: 3553
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:12 pm

Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by Cortex » Tue May 15, 2018 2:50 am

my wizard spellbooks are always stacked with lesser dispels, dispels, greater dispels and two or three disjunctions just to counter spell on the spot
:)

StrykerMontgomery
Posts: 371
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:14 pm

Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by StrykerMontgomery » Tue May 15, 2018 5:37 am

Cortex wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 2:50 am
my wizard spellbooks are always stacked with lesser dispels, dispels, greater dispels and two or three disjunctions just to counter spell on the spot
But at least a sorceror doesnt have to worry about wasting those slots if he never counterspells that day.
Currently played characters:
Have not played for over a year, thinking of returning again

TimeAdept
Posts: 1336
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:02 am

Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by TimeAdept » Tue May 15, 2018 6:22 am

StrykerMontgomery wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 5:28 am
Roleplay wise one is smarter as the other is more of a force of personality. Like bluff/disguising yourseld will be much easier as a sorceror.

THE BIGGEST ADVANTAGE OF SPONTANEOUS CASTERS IS THE ABILITY TO BE SPONTANEOUS NOT MORE SPELLS PER DAY

Mechanics wise the flexibility vs more spells is kind of a lie. I will explain why in a bit.

First off, unless you are going for the whole "learn all spells knowledge seeker" always be a specialist wizard. There is a reason why in PnP DnD that you need to have TWO prohibited schools as a specialist wizard. Neverwinter nights is extremely forgiving in this regard. Your extra spell slot doesn't even need to be in the school you are a specialist in, so essentially all you have to do is pick one school not to cast in and you cast more spells than a sorcerer.. wait what did I just say?

A lvl 5 specialist wizard casts more spells per day than a lvl 5 sorceror. Why? Because you not only are casting higher lvl spells but just gained three spell slots in your newer tier of spell casting. Lvl 6 sorceror will be slightly ahead of you but you will be laughing again at lvl 7.

Wizard will also outclass in skill points and feats. A pure wizard specialist, who knows whay he is doing with a good deal of akill and planning involved, outclasses a sorcerer on the books in so many ways. Especially since greater spell focus evocation or conjuration solves your limited spells per day problems.

I ironically, contrary to popular belief, consided the sorcerer's strength to be flexibility.

Good luck counterspelling on the fly as a wizard, a sorceor just needs to know the various dispels and can lock you down hard with no preprep.

Meta magic is also way more flexible for a sorceror and why in PnP DnD it makes soells take a little longer to cast for spontaneous casters (which you don't suffer in nwn) If you posses still and silent metamagic feats, you can be in a roleplay situation where you are tied or gagged and still have the option to rain destruction down upon your foes without having to prepare ahead of time.
Literally do not ever specialize, don't tell people to do this.

StrykerMontgomery
Posts: 371
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:14 pm

Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by StrykerMontgomery » Tue May 15, 2018 11:52 am

If there is a school you can't do without, then yeah don't specialize. (And of you recommend wizard to newer players I csn see why you would say that). But if you are going for spells per day, specialized wizard can have best of both worlds.

I mean i guess in a world where every character can eventually be epic and you don't have a finite amount of resources, specializimg in the long run probably does not seem worth it.

But if the only reason you are going sorcerer is more spells per day and you still want all the other goodies of a wizard, hands down you should specialize.
Currently played characters:
Have not played for over a year, thinking of returning again

User avatar
Cortex
Posts: 3553
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:12 pm

Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by Cortex » Tue May 15, 2018 11:57 am

never specialize either
:)

Fluffys
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:33 am

Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by Fluffys » Tue May 15, 2018 12:17 pm

Yeah, the Sorcerer can counterspell more often than the Wizard. But will he?
Thing is, you will rarely, if ever, have to counterspell, say, 8 times in a row.

If you *need* to do that, then something has definitely gone really wrong - if in combat.
But let's say something didn't go too wrong (ex: Roleplaying session, where you are counterspelling another mage student), or even that something *did* go wrong, and you needed to counterspell a lot...

Then be prepared, like Cortex said.
Have 5 or 7 (or more) dispels on the ready if you think you'll need them.

I've played Wizards and Sorcerers for many years now, and while the idea of being able to counter on the fly 'forever' is totally great (and I too like to make builds in my head and pwn-counter my imaginary enemies) but the fact is that 99.9% of the time, if you know what you are doing, you will have more than enough counterspells on the ready (also, remember that there are additional counterspells - and if you know pretty well what others will cast... that works as well).

At least that has been my experience.
Oh, and remember that a Sorcerer with Dispels for every level (lesser, normal, great, and Mord's) is not taking those 4 spells at lvl-up. Totally worth it for me when I played most of my Sorcerers, but just putting it out there.

PS: A specialized Wizard with one or two more 'forbidden' spellschools can be a great clutch for creating and RPing a wizard. But, yeah, not too great power-wise. If you must, merely for the sake of a couple more spells, and still wanting to retain some power, go Illusionist - do note that this advice comes from someone who stopped playing on Regulith some 2 years ago.

User avatar
susitsu
Posts: 1190
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 7:09 pm

Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by susitsu » Tue May 15, 2018 12:28 pm

This is an argument of nit-picking a mechanic people fail to use.

Ive never had the time of day for counter-spelling in PvP ever, nor have other mages been given it.

User avatar
Cortex
Posts: 3553
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:12 pm

Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by Cortex » Tue May 15, 2018 1:14 pm

susitsu wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 12:28 pm
This is an argument of nit-picking a mechanic people fail to use.

Ive never had the time of day for counter-spelling in PvP ever, nor have other mages been given it.
well nitpicking this

In personal experience, if the opponent has 1 mage (2 or more makes it harder), casting mass haste/invis gsanc/EDK and then CSing them letting your melee ravage them is amazing and I've had good success with it in the past. And while clerics aren't in the best spot right now either, it works just as well against them in blocking crucial heals or dangerous spells, especially if you can predict when they're casting what spell. For example, in the past when PvPing battle clerics (when they were still good), if I failed to nuke them in one go (either due to not being max level or a 'fug' moment), CSing their heal followed by another barrage often did the trick. Nobody ever expects it.
:)

User avatar
Opustus
Posts: 817
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:07 pm

Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by Opustus » Tue May 15, 2018 1:54 pm

About counterspelling: On my former server Amia, Sorcerer was considered the better pick because it could perform about the same as Wizard in most regards, but in the rare cases of large-scale PvP and mage v. mage action, the Sorcerer had the edge on the Wizard due to having more dispelling. In particular, Sorcerer30 with Evocation or Necromancy focus and AutoQuicken III was contended the most potent caster build available in skill-based PvP matchups. Even though PvP wasn't that common, the Sorcerer30 was crowned champion because it could still solo PvE sufficiently without giving up its dispelling edge. The nastiest of Sorcies gave up Mass Haste for other spells, which I consider a very naughty thing to do. I haven't had much practice with spellcasters in PvP so I don't honestly know a squat, but this sayeth the legend.
Characters: all poor babies suffering from neglect

User avatar
susitsu
Posts: 1190
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 7:09 pm

Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by susitsu » Tue May 15, 2018 7:21 pm

My point is that counter-spelling is not the basis on which sorcerers vs. wizards should be compared.

My personal feelings is that wizards are better generally because they can do everything. Prep kings. Sorcerers also are always prepared just how they want to be, and this is an incredible advantage, but sorcerers fill a niche spellcaster role where they are better specialists than wizards, but sacrifice versatility. Whereas wizards just get to fill their spellbook up with everything.

And lots of feats. Feats are amazing.

and remember to always be a generalist wizard. always. no matter what anyone says.

StrykerMontgomery
Posts: 371
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:14 pm

Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by StrykerMontgomery » Tue May 15, 2018 8:48 pm

susitsu wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 7:21 pm

and remember to always be a generalist wizard. always. no matter what anyone says.
As someone who likes to cast lots of spells, specialists are one of the only reason I consider wizard. A lvl 5 wizard casts more spells per day than a lvl 5 sorcerer.
Currently played characters:
Have not played for over a year, thinking of returning again

Fluffys
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:33 am

Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by Fluffys » Tue May 15, 2018 8:51 pm

Yes, perish the thought of making a character that isn’t built specifically for pwning other players in PvP.
You might *lose* with one of those!

Of all the casters I’ve played, I think that those that had the greatest impact on the world and that, in the end, were the more enjoyable, had glaring flaws (in a power-build pov).
Still, I usually did (and do) fine in PvP.
Most people suck at it, anyway. And instead of actually practicing it, they make-up/request powerbuilds thinking that will spell(ahem) victory.

But I’m getting totally sidetracked.

Returning to Specialist wizards: my very first wizard on this server, years and years ago, was a Specialist Abjurer. She was a riot to play, and in some ways I still miss her. Sure, she didn’t had summons, but she always had friends, and others knew for a fact she was specializing in Abjuring, wards, defensive spells, spells to breach or disable other mages, and so on. That alone opened many a door for RP.
Also, she had to find ways to be able to do the things other generic mages were doing - another door.

Edit: my most recent wizard (was some time ago as well) spent her days writing up essays explaining away her hatred for enchanters and enchantment in general. Her forbidden school drove at least half of her research..........

I, for one, am very happy to not have made the usual generalist 26wiz/4bard, or some such variant.
But this IS a builds subforum, so I’ll just golf clap myself away. :ugeek:

Post Reply