Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

OOC General Discussion

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs

User avatar
flower
Posts: 1287
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:16 am

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by flower » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:08 pm

Cortex wrote:....

My friend was winning in pvp against multiple enemies and full factions even on old toons. Does it mean there is not problém? No. It means said guy was lucky (foes rolled 1s etc), knows his job better than enemies and so on.

IT does not mean something is not broken. That a sub class build kills some epic level does not make from that sub class build suddenly one of the best.

User avatar
Commie
Posts: 220
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:49 am

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by Commie » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:35 pm

I would just like a lore explanation of why attacking a physically durable barbarian physically damages me.

It's why I didn't play the class. I couldn't reconcile the lore behind it and am turned off by pure "video game-y" mechanics. But some people clearly like that sort of stuff.

rookie
Posts: 130
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2017 5:10 am

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by rookie » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:09 pm

Personally I think removing the ability to use Wands/Scrolls while raging (use the Kensai code maybe) would allow better use of counters and makes sense thematically.

User avatar
Ork
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:30 pm

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by Ork » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:25 pm

Commie wrote:I would just like a lore explanation of why attacking a physically durable barbarian physically damages me.
Ask the barbarian you're fighting.

There doesn't need to be lore behind every mechanic. Why do player owned locks reach 127 DC? Why does Tyr love it when I kill wolverines and give me .5% piety?

Don't limit yourself with lore. Mechanics are a broad representation of what's happening in a game. Sometimes I conjure demons with planar summoning, sometimes I conjure slaadi. I can interpret that as a player to determine meaning. "I summon demons because I didn't ward my mind against fel thoughts" could be a valid, lore driven explanation.

User avatar
Commie
Posts: 220
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:49 am

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by Commie » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:06 pm

Summoning hostile outsiders defiantly has rp behind it though. Binding is its whole own mechanic.

Taking physical damage just because you dared to attack a tanky bruiser? It doesn't even have a vfx.

Xerah
Posts: 2036
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:39 pm

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by Xerah » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:26 pm

You get hit as you're trying to hit them. It doesn't seem that hard to justify. There are far more obscure things out there.
Katernin Bersk, Chancellor of Divination; Kerri Amblecrown, Paladin of Milil; Xull'kacha Auvry'rae, Redcap Fey-pacted; Sadia yr Thuravya el Bhirax, Priestess of Umberlee; Lissa Whitehorn, Archmage of Artifice

nobs3
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 322
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:17 pm

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by nobs3 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:52 am

Limiting the use of items and skills while raging might be interesting.

Parry is a barb skill... but who plays an dex build barb?

So maybe parry works different with barb. E.g. blocking/taking blows and hitting very hard back.

What about parry not based on dex but on const (and maybe without armor malus) + hard damage bonus?
  • - The idea of const/HP and dmg. reduction replacing AC is one main principle of (most) barb und should be supported.
    - The other one is hitting hard without criticals.
    - And rage: temp war maschine (maybe even bringing danger to himself and his own party).
Last edited by nobs3 on Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:38 pm, edited 4 times in total.

User avatar
Durvayas
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 2207
Joined: Sun May 31, 2015 6:20 am

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by Durvayas » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:49 am

I'm also of the opinion a barbarian should be unable to use scrolls and wands while raging. Magic requires two things; Know-how and focus. While a barbarian is frothing at the mouth and berzerking, they should have neither.

Its a stretch of the imagination to see a barbarian stop his berzerking rage to carefully select a specific scroll, unfurl it, focus, and cast calmly and with perfectly voiced intonations for the incant as though trained by elminster himself, before going back to being an engine of rage and death.

It's cheeze.
Plays: Durvayas(deleted), Marco(deleted), Hounynrae(NPC), Sinithra Auvry'ndal(rolled), Rauvlin Barrith(Active), Madeline Clavelle(Shelved)

nobs3
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 322
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:17 pm

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by nobs3 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:43 pm

Limiting the use of items/skills (e.g. wands and scrolls) while raging might...
- push pure barb builds
- help barb rp (rage)
- legitimate some other (rage) bonuses

User avatar
Cortex
Posts: 3553
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:12 pm

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by Cortex » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:09 pm

There are numerous ways of RPing barbarian rage, forcing limits upon rage would also limit these RP concepts. And not something I'll delve into.
:)

User avatar
Peppermint
Posts: 1860
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:44 pm

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by Peppermint » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:27 pm

It's a video game. Chill.

There are far more interesting things to focus on in RP than whether the barbarian 100% cleaved to barbarian rage lore.

User avatar
hmm2
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:28 am

Thou Mother Dost bloweth thine bubblegum

Post by hmm2 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:17 pm

out of all those who are commenting on this topic.
Who here
Regularly plays a Barbarian?

User avatar
gilescorey
Posts: 1481
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:14 pm

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by gilescorey » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:36 pm

Cortex has probably played more barbarians than anyone on the server, tbh.

PinkFuzzyBunnyoftheApocolypse
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:13 pm

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by PinkFuzzyBunnyoftheApocolypse » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:46 pm

I play barbarians rather frequently.

User avatar
Covex
Posts: 38
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:28 am
Location: Under The Sea

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by Covex » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:50 pm

I play two kinds of barbs AC Dwarf and Twohand Orog both have
love my dwarf more then the Orog.
"How can a fey even turn into a werewolf?" -Borbag Malshurd

User avatar
Commie
Posts: 220
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:49 am

Re: Thou Mother Dost bloweth thine bubblegum

Post by Commie » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:15 pm

hmm2 wrote:out of all those who are commenting on this topic.
Who here
Regularly plays a Barbarian?
I don't, mostly due to not liking the bite back mechanic.

Nemain
Posts: 111
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 9:40 pm

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by Nemain » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:20 pm

High Primate wrote:...How does it explain the fact that a Barbarian with 2 str wielding a weapon he's not even focused in would do Biteback damage...
To understand that, you gotta envision someone raging out. Really, really hard.... Gain plot armor kind of hard... Or just this:

Image

The barbarian doesn't wield their weapon right like a WM would: they just add in headbutts, elbows, biting and foot stomping.
High Primate wrote:... or a Barbarian who is under the effects of a hold spell?
That's a different technique altogether, which could also be applied to the other cases: you see, the barbarian's so damn tough that whenever you hit him... You feel sorry for the poor guy and it hurts your feelings aswell.


That said, I do have a barb over in FL that I've played sometimes, and feel that the loss of biteback will provably be the moment where she'll have to be retired.

nobs3
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 322
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:17 pm

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by nobs3 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:06 pm

My posts are somewhat "biased" since:
I play an orog barb and from the start on the concept I wanted to try was:
Don’t care about AC (26 at high epic lvl), don’t care about being vulnerable to magic (no save enhancement), don’t care about using magic (no rogue levels)...
just: be tough, tough, tough and hit hard!
(and I enjoy the mix of weak spots and extreme power)

Temp. HP (and later dmg-red) are mostly needed for this build and bit back is a very effective positive bonus. (most of all if your party is in trouble and you stand alone; I don’t care for PvP)

So if you would optimize this build (skill dump on rogue and special gear...) and combine it with a special play style it has the potential to be very powerful.
But without this and also cultivating its weaknesses it is far from it.

(I think that is the case for many classes/builds ->> shapechanging druids? ;))

rookie
Posts: 130
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2017 5:10 am

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by rookie » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:09 pm

My highest level character is a multiclass barbarian/conlock (pre-change, but still works fine now) and another character is a more traditional barbarian.

For the first it is pretty hilarious to hit rage and watch people do "the smart thing" and run only to be blasted in the back and give me breathing room (as a player) to calmly pull out whatever scroll/wand I need and use it. And if they do "the dumb thing" and hit me I can make that painful too.

I don't want it to sound like I'm a good PvPer or this is a good build, probably in an arena match it would lose often. Out and about though the people that attack me seem to get real panicky and make more mistakes than not and the barbarian mechanics make it very forgiving of my own mistakes.

It fits the character's RP but I do think being able to UMD and cast while raging is a bit much. I think raging should to be a choice that makes you powerful in melee but has some negatives to it. Right now it is just "Do I want to be awesome for a bit and can I finish things before I'm not so strong: Yes/No"
Last edited by rookie on Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TimeAdept
Posts: 1336
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:02 am

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by TimeAdept » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:11 pm

While raging, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function. He can use any feat he has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, and metamagic feats.
This would go a way towards fixing the "hits rage and uses scrolls" thing, if tha's considered an issue.

User avatar
Ebonstar
Posts: 1471
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:17 pm
Location: you may not see me but i see you

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by Ebonstar » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:31 pm

Bok bites when the wrong people touch him, you going to pull his teeth?
Yes I can sign

User avatar
Diilicious
Posts: 737
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:50 am
Location: 1 Riverside Cottage, Bendir, Arelith

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by Diilicious » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:25 pm

TimeAdept wrote:
While raging, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function. He can use any feat he has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, and metamagic feats.
This would go a way towards fixing the "hits rage and uses scrolls" thing, if tha's considered an issue.
It would also go a way towards nerfing the class into the floor for "muh realism"
Name: Shanna Waynolt nee Tahir
Age: 45
Height: 5'0"
Weight: 106lb
Hair & facial archetype: Ginnifer Goodwin
Body shape archetype: Example

TimeAdept
Posts: 1336
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:02 am

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by TimeAdept » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:52 pm

I'm not sure being unable to read scrolls or use wands mid-rage counts as "Nerfing into the floor" strictly speaking, considering they'd be able to use it any time they like outside of that, including during the cooldown rage time when they're suddenly at their weakest and may need access to those the most.

User avatar
Commie
Posts: 220
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:49 am

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by Commie » Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:29 pm

Well it would be a huge nerf. Right now, unless you have a way to stop actions from range, if you attempt to ikd to stop a use of a scroll or Wand you may eat hundreds of physical damage from bite back over a flurry, so, even if you successfully stop the scroll, you took a lot of damage to do it.

The idea of a low ac max con barb sounds hilarious btw. I wonder how high you could get bite back damage? Could any melee even kill you before they died to bite back? You would have godlike hp and fort saves so you could sure outlast them...

User avatar
Dreams
Posts: 1083
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:13 am

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by Dreams » Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:32 pm

They've already said bite back is being removed. Chill.

Post Reply