Mechanics, FOIG, and Lanterns

[Irongron]

I actually rather agree with boons being misjudged, and it's on me.

At the time I thought it was a great idea - a reason to explore and visit (and revisit) 'special' places that went beyond simple XP & gold. I imagined it as part of a larger system, and while I and Action Replay, for a time embraced the system, adding a few here and there, the difficulty with balancing them as the team became more mechanically savvy was often just too great to overcome. The design principle is itself very similar to the Radiant Heart ring (which is also squarely on me).

At the time there were people who made it pretty plain they didn't think this was a good direction to go in, and in retrospect I likely should have been more receptive to that criticism. The biggest flaw though, is that we didn't really go one way or another; either it should have become a central feature to the design, or not been introduced at all. The fact we have a system like this in place, but so seldom used, is far too arcane to be acceptable.

Self-reflection aside, I absolutely love the idea of in-game effort revealing actual in-game secrets, and for research in game to yield actually useful, mechanical results, rather than everything being up on a wiki and a spreadsheet.

[Azensor]

Tbh might just write up a quick book eventually on the boons/other foig info ic, only challenging part is gonna be spreading it around but eh not to much trouble

[Yvesza]

I actually really like the theory behind boons, they're unfortunately prone to metagaming and the current implementations are definately a little too arcane. I'd love to see a few more of them around though and maybe the couple we already have need a little bit of a once over to make them less misleading.

[Rubricae]

Doing the quest to break a collar? Super fun to figure out without outside interference and just by talking to friends ICly and trying things. (Although please, perhaps state quantities!)

this is probably the best example of a system that can actually be found out in-game. now that it fully functions.
though it is still overdue for an update...

[Kythana]

I actually rather agree with boons being misjudged, and it's on me.

At the time I thought it was a great idea - a reason to explore and visit (and revisit) 'special' places that went beyond simple XP & gold. I imagined it as part of a larger system, and while I and Action Replay, for a time embraced the system, adding a few here and there, the difficulty with balancing them as the team became more mechanically savvy was often just too great to overcome. The design principle is itself very similar to the Radiant Heart ring (which is also squarely on me).

At the time there were people who made it pretty plain they didn't think this was a good direction to go in, and in retrospect I likely should have been more receptive to that criticism. The biggest flaw though, is that we didn't really go one way or another; either it should have become a central feature to the design, or not been introduced at all. The fact we have a system like this in place, but so seldom used, is far too arcane to be acceptable.

Self-reflection aside, I absolutely love the idea of in-game effort revealing actual in-game secrets, and for research in game to yield actually useful, mechanical results, rather than everything being up on a wiki and a spreadsheet.

I also very much agree with the goal behind this. As an experiment on my most recent character, I went out and leveled very slowly, and talked to every single NPC along the way, reading descriptions of module placed fixtures and set pieces in dungeons, and just generally tried to get a view of how the server wanted to display itself.

I think there is a lot of potential there to have hints, and proper feedback within the game itself that allows a reasonable player to follow up, explore and identify more of the secret aspects. For something like the Maurs boon, just as an example, perhaps adding a few npcs around Jotunhold/Guldorand/Underdark that mention this if you speak to them? Maybe a writ that mentions them by name giving you a hint to go there?

Or maybe alternatively, when you go to the location itself, you get a little prompt from the game that suggests something interesting might be here. Perhaps a lore check, like some that already exist ingame? You might be able to figure out intuitively that:

1. Something exists in this dungeon, but you don't know what.
2. There's a special interaction at this one area, but you aren't sure how to do it.

And from there, you could then seek out scholarly type character, who likely have invested deep into these skills, which would then naturally give them the information(or at least a very strong hint at how to progress further).

What I ultimately don't think a lot of us want to see is esoteric systems where the only option is to brute force it. Less, "I'm going to spam every language and every combination of things I can do while near this unique module fixture" and more actual discovery work.

I do, however, think there is value in the wiki at least stating that this concept exists. Just something vague along the lines of: There are little random buffs you can find out in the world, search for hints ingame!

Since a majority of us playing don't have access to the code, it's sometimes hard to decipher whether something ingame is just flavor for the purposes of setting enrichment, or something that I'm actually able to interact with. Just getting proper ingame feedback, even just a skill check in the combat log for purposes of history/lore/arcana/ect would be great.

[Shadowy Reality]

Hard agree, don't be afraid to give hints.

The idea about NPCs at Jotunhold is great. Same with the Saga Statues of the Band at the entrance of the Maurs. If those statues with the Saga had even a faint reference to the puzzle, that would be amazing.

[Coolguy McMagic]

I don't know if anyone would have been able to figure out the maur boon if they didn't know the exact phrasing from the actual code. Maybe there is an IC way to figure this out, or someone could brute force it for some reason.

Apparently a group of players actually did manage to figure that one out by accident and has been passing on the knowledge since then in-character. So it's not just OOC stuff.
Still, the mechanics behind that one in particular really need a few hints in-game, as plenty of others have pointed out.

[Edens_Fall]

Strangely enough, the Deck of Stars can provide a mechanical benefit that's locked behind FOIG info. Then there's the understanding the aura's, I'm sure there are a couple diviners out there that are enjoying the perks that come with that knowledge but they are far from the majority.

Learn something new everyday.

[Anomandaris]

If the problem is players using ooc info that shouldn’t exist, why create more ooc info? There’s no perfect system, people aren’t even aware of the info on the wiki half the time.

At no point has the problem ever been players using OOC info that shouldn't exist. The problem, as specifically highlighted, is that it doesn't exist, and there is no intuitive way to learn ingame. These are things that often have 0 hints, and is just collective tribal knowledge. You can speak for yourself, but the wiki is a great tool to make the game more accessible in general, and plenty of people do use it as a great resource to understand how this works.

Regardless of whether players are and aren't aware, the information is there to understand and learn about a mechanical system in depth, instead of hopelessly speculating on what something does, why, whether it's correct. I've reported numerous bugs because something on the wiki says it works one way, but ingame it actually doesn't. I can't do that when something is FOIG, I have zero idea if it's working as intended, broken, bugged, or messed up in any way.

Given you can ask around and will absolutely be told these things IC, I don’t see a problem. No ones trying to hide some marginal blessing from ppl that I’ve seen. These things are fun for people to discover ic. We shouldn’t have access to perfect info like that, it’s kind of the point. And if you don’t have a boon and someone else does, you’ll likely never know and it won’t make a lick of difference.

I'll counter your own anecdotal experience with my own, in that, yes, I've absolutely seen problem players and faction that go out of their way to hide things that are "FOIG" for the purposes of gaining a one up on other players. Obscene gold farming methods are often hidden by said players as well, out of interest not to have it nerfed, as well as powerful builds that are not well known, and often outright exploits.

Probably the best example of this was the recent hood-checking controversy, which never explicitly stated that a primary reason for doing this was to bypass the godsave from disguises.

So your experience may not have shown that, but all that says to me is you're not looking hard enough, and you're not playing at high enough level to where this will make a difference. For the boons specifically, an extra 4 will save or 5 discipline (Which is what they give to some builds) is the difference between passing a save or knockdown attempt. That's pretty important, especially when you want to challenge exceptionally skilled players ingame.

After the twentieth character or so, it can get quite difficult to remember which ones know the konami code and which ones don't.

I prefer IC solutions and this screams 'write a book about it' to me.

This is moving the goal posts. A book is not a maintainable solution. What happens month after you've moved on from that character, the spot is no longer actively played around, the book is stolen, destroyed, or simply never really discussed in the first place.

It also, once again, is a stopgap for newer players. You have hundreds if not thousands of books sitting around in libraries. Going through every single one to hopefully and eventually find something that gives some of unique benefit ingame is insane.

And just for my anecdotal experience, I've already done this. On a previous character, I specifically went around to multiple libraries, including Myon, Radiant Heart, Arcane Tower, and Guldorand's Winter Rest. And across the sixty-seventy books I read, and the hundreds I skimmed over, not once did I see a reference to any sort of FOIG info.

I'm not saying they aren't there, but they sure aren't obvious.

It takes only one person to write a ic book detailing the findings or info

Really? So in all the years Arelith has been out, do you think nobody has ever written a book about boons? And yet- This thread has had multiple comments now indicating that they have no idea what I'm even talking about when I refer to these.

I was talking about Metagaming "using OOC information your characters shouldn't know."

And sure, I mispoke with "nobody does this." Yes some players do gatepkeep. Yes some characters are mean and won't help your char for IC reasons. Find the ones that are helpful. It's how I learned about the Astrolabe, Shadowdoors, and at least 3 boons. The opportunity for these things to be discovered is there, through RP. Just like the Astrolabe and other fun little FOIG tidbits.

But we can agree to disagree because it appears we differ on first premise. I simply disagree that everyone should have easy access to these things. I like to struggle to figure things out, I enjoy a challenge and surprises. I don't mind if someone has some knowledge I don't, that's part of what makes things interesting and motivates me to learn something new! And I don't think that boons are going to make any tangible difference for 99.9% of player interactions. Skill, build, gear, allies, and other factors will play a much greater impact.

Do you think we can exchange opinions without denigrating "the level" one another may or may not play at? Thank you.

Lastly, as far as cracking the code on the Maur boon. I certainly didn't put 2 +2 together, but to be fair it is in a fortress full of giantkin. So activating a relic via Jotun, the giantkin language, isn't exactly a huge leap. Some more IG hints would be cool though for sure!

[Cthuletta]

Boons aside, as I love all the suggestions above and wanna see 'em.

Still would REALLY love the Lanterns having their bonuses listed on the Wiki given those are much harder to mechanically figure out.
Or the Lantern Guy in Shadow Cordor giving hints. That'd be cool, too!

[Edens_Fall]

A new section on Boons has been added to the Wiki.

[FurnishMyFlatForCheap]

I remember finding one of the ingame books on how the basin works, and to get the most out of it, specific saves not counting towards the four properties before adding a rune for example. This was really cool for me personally.

I knew OOC about these boons after finding one IC once but otherwise never found any of them. I personally don’t mind small groups of players finding something that provides a mechanical boon so long as there’s a way to figure this out in game.

I have so many dam keys that I have no idea where they are for, from what I can tell there’s no text providing hints to where said key is useful.

So long as there’s an actual way to figure it out in game, secrets are good they provide interest.

As for the new player vrs old player. I’m I think a year playing here. I don’t care if people have already figured these things out long ago and have them all tucked away, so long as I can explore and figure it out for myself via clues this is fine.

[Kythana]

Sadly, it looks like the change to boons completely missed the mark of what was really the problem here. It swung a bit too much in the opposite direction, where the boons are now, functionally, worthless. Sure, 30 LBs of carry weight is nice, but mindflayer's giving lore to language recognition, and deep speech for written?

The ride boon is now worthless to actual riders?

Generally, what I've seen from this thread is that many are okay with ingame bonuses being out there, as long as there is a reasonable and clear path to discovering ingame. This didn't change this. I still have no idea what the Furies Boon is, or where to find it, and nobody I have talked has any clear idea either.

We want cool, hidden things to discover. We just want a way to discover it that isn't nonsensical.

[Sincra]

From Sincra:

Boons & Design approach shift: [As of next reset]

Changes

• Communion Boon:

  • Lost Attributes.
  • Lost Saves.
  • Lost Skills.
  • Gained +5 Lore to language comprehension checks.
  • Gained bonus ability to comprehend written deep speech as if 25% more fluent.

• Giant / Jotun Boon:

  • Lost Attributes.
  • Lost Saves.
  • Lost Skills.
  • Gained 30lb's of carry capacity.

• Riding Instructor Boon:

  • Lost Ride Skill Bonus.
  • Gained prevention of being thrown except by spell or jousting.

• Furies Boon:

  • Lost Attributes.
  • Lost Saves.
  • Gained dice alteration on Call Lightning. (d6 -> d10)
  • Gained alternate Call Lightning VFX.

Commentary & Rationale:
Boons have been around for some time, but of late their place in the design of the server has come under scrutiny both in and out of the team.
On some level they invoked a sense of the Fear of Missing Out (FOMO) but also willed character breaking to not be at a disadvantage through the use of the boons.
It was also raised as a Find Out In Game (FOIG) issue as substantive mechanical power was being gate kept.
As such, all original bonuses on the above 4 have been lost and are now as described by the gained comments.
As the title of this update suggests, the new approach will be to encourage use for roleplay and thematics, instead of the most powerful.

It has done exactly as we intended, the commentary and rationale explains the approach.

The ride boon is now useful beyond a niche midground, people who maxed ride never needed it anyway, this allows low investment and locking you out of other boons in exchange for a low speed mount reliability.
The language stuff is useful because it's an rp thematic and promotes cultist style rp.
Weight is weight.
Furies boon is something to find, you can easily make reasons to ask about these things.

"Is there a place of power for the furies around the island?" And keep asking till you get told stuff.
"i am looking to research giant culture".
"I heard about these creatures called illithid, what can you tell me about them and are any located on or around the isle?"

Be inventive.

[ThisIsNotADrill]

I still have no clue what any of the diviner auras really mean, which means I can't roleplay them. I've never been able to find any documentation as to what they're supposed to mean IC to the character perceiving them. I've tried to ask both OOC and even IC (pretending that a greater diviner somehow wouldn't know) and gotten nowhere.

It's frustratingly nebulous.

That strikes me as precisely the sort of thing that ought to be explained somewhere.

[Sincra]

I still have no clue what any of the diviner auras really mean, which means I can't roleplay them. I've never been able to find any documentation as to what they're supposed to mean IC to the character perceiving them. I've tried to ask both OOC and even IC (pretending that a greater diviner somehow wouldn't know) and gotten nowhere.

It's frustratingly nebulous.

That strikes me as precisely the sort of thing that ought to be explained somewhere.

You can ask other diviners, as someone who plays and has played multiple over many years and worked out what they mean, I do explain it in game when asked on such characters.
They have next to no mechanical bearing aside clueing into certain activities, as such they will not be being listed.

And on the topic of your character not knowing, why is that an issue?
Why are people so afraid to show a moment of imperfection that makes rp?

Start a group to investigate, discuss, theorise.
This is all the basis of strong magic rp.

[ThisIsNotADrill]

I still have no clue what any of the diviner auras really mean, which means I can't roleplay them. I've never been able to find any documentation as to what they're supposed to mean IC to the character perceiving them. I've tried to ask both OOC and even IC (pretending that a greater diviner somehow wouldn't know) and gotten nowhere.

It's frustratingly nebulous.

That strikes me as precisely the sort of thing that ought to be explained somewhere.

You can ask other diviners, as someone who plays and has played multiple over many years and worked out what they mean, I do explain it in game when asked on such characters.
They have next to if not no mechanical bearing aside clueing into certain activities, as such they will not be being listed.

And on the topic of your character not knowing, why is that an issue?
Why are people so afraid to show a moment of imperfection that makes rp?

Start a group to investigate, discuss, theorise.
This is all the basis of strong magic rp.

I did ask other diviners. They didn't have a clue either. Unfortunately, characters can't actually verbalize something that their players don't know, and somewhere along the line of the telephone game, diviners haven't been sharing. Not that they should have to, my character should have a minimum amount of information about what these auras are from the get-go, otherwise there's no good reason why I should be able to distinctly tell them apart for what they are. If I don't know what an aura is or means, how do I know it's a water aura? How do I know it's an aura? It presents just enough information to be totally useless if you don't OOC know what it means.

Information inaccessible to players is also inaccessible to their characters.

What would really make for some RP is some foreknowledge of what auras are so I have a foundational position with which to actually begin.

So little information (read: pretty much none) is presented that it inhibits RP rather than supports it.

And just for the record, it's not an issue of a character not knowing something. It's an issue of a character not knowing something that they ought to know at least something about while it's being waved in my face and still being kept a secret.

[Security_Blanket]

It's an issue of a character not knowing something that they ought to know at least something about while it's being waved in my face and still being kept a secret.

This has been my biggest issue with it, I couldn't imagine RPing my character properly in a Forgotten Realms setting without sourcebooks to help me here and there. My main was a diviner and I wanted divination to be a big part of his character, I figured I'd have fun with that aura thing and the deck of stars once I figured them out, but I never did. It seemed like it was a neat tool with a lot of potential to improve my characters RP and help sell the whole "I see things" angle. I would make it open knowledge, and only given at Epic Divination Focus so people that have that OoC info can't just throw on an amulet to benefit from whatever that thing tells you.

[ThisIsNotADrill]

It's an issue of a character not knowing something that they ought to know at least something about while it's being waved in my face and still being kept a secret.

This has been my biggest issue with it, I couldn't imagine RPing my character properly in a Forgotten Realms setting without sourcebooks to help me here and there. My main was a diviner and I wanted divination to be a big part of his character, I figured I'd have fun with that aura thing and the deck of stars once I figured them out, but I never did. It seemed like it was a neat tool with a lot of potential to improve my characters RP and help sell the whole "I see things" angle. I would make it open knowledge, and only given at Epic Divination Focus so people that have that OoC info can't just throw on an amulet to benefit from whatever that thing tells you.

If every last morsel of information about it is going to be gatekept as it is, then it shouldn't be given as part of a feat that a character can simply take at any time at all. It should have to be acquired in-game through a process like anything else with the FOIG sticker slapped on it. Preferably through a process that illustrates what the heck it actually does.

Instead, it's an ability my character has been granted automatically (indeed it's a class feature for shamans), presumably through significant study and investment in divination, and yet this character with greater divination focus and plenty of lore still somehow doesn't know step one about what they're looking at? Dross. Absolute rubbish of the highest order.

Most of the diviners I spoke to totally ignore the system because it gives them so little to work with that they don't know where to start. Some of them didn't know what I was talking about because they'd never even noticed it.

If people RPing around this is a desired outcome, it might do to provide a few breadcrumbs to follow in order to facilitate this.

And if the information these auras might provide is sufficiently sensitive that the system has to be gatekept so tightly, maybe it's the kind of information that nobody should ever under any circumstances be able to just passively acquire with the right player knowledge anyway?

[Xerah]

Not that they should have to, my character should have a minimum amount of information about what these auras are from the get-go, otherwise there's no good reason why I should be able to distinctly tell them apart for what they are. If I don't know what an aura is or means, how do I know it's a water aura? How do I know it's an aura? It presents just enough information to be totally useless if you don't OOC know what it means

You know it's a water aura because the game says it is a water aura. How you want to see that aura is entirely up to you. Maybe you see a fish floating over their head. Maybe you see wet steps on the ground. Maybe you feel your hands being wet when you're near someone. That's the great thing about role play is writing it how you want your character to do so. Just because you can do/see/etc. something, doesn't mean you know why it's happening, what it means, etc. That's pretty standard how things go in these sorts of storytelling.

It's also not totally useless. If you are looking for someone with a fire aura and find some tracks that have a fire aura, well, that means you're on the right path.

There are certainly books out there on the subject too. I imagine if you speak with some of the many librarians, mage guild leaders, or former guild members, you can probably find one of the two books that I know are in shelves out there.

[ThisIsNotADrill]

Not that they should have to, my character should have a minimum amount of information about what these auras are from the get-go, otherwise there's no good reason why I should be able to distinctly tell them apart for what they are. If I don't know what an aura is or means, how do I know it's a water aura? How do I know it's an aura? It presents just enough information to be totally useless if you don't OOC know what it means

You know it's a water aura because the game says it is a water aura. How you want to see that aura is entirely up to you. Maybe you see a fish floating over their head. Maybe you see wet steps on the ground. Maybe you feel your hands being wet when you're near someone. That's the great thing about role play is writing it how you want your character to do so. Just because you can do/see/etc. something, doesn't mean you know why it's happening, what it means, etc. That's pretty standard how things go in these sorts of storytelling.

It's also not totally useless. If you are looking for someone with a fire aura and find some tracks that have a fire aura, well, that means you're on the right path.

There are certainly books out there on the subject too. I imagine if you speak with some of the many librarians, mage guild leaders, or former guild members, you can probably find one of the two books that I know are in shelves out there.

Nah I just don't accept that. Dross.

I expect more to go on than 'you see a water aura' as information presented to me. If that was enough to be considered quality breadcrumbing for storytelling, all of our descriptions would be written as vague as uninformative as that.

[Ruzuke]

Not that they should have to, my character should have a minimum amount of information about what these auras are from the get-go, otherwise there's no good reason why I should be able to distinctly tell them apart for what they are. If I don't know what an aura is or means, how do I know it's a water aura? How do I know it's an aura? It presents just enough information to be totally useless if you don't OOC know what it means

You know it's a water aura because the game says it is a water aura. How you want to see that aura is entirely up to you. Maybe you see a fish floating over their head. Maybe you see wet steps on the ground. Maybe you feel your hands being wet when you're near someone. That's the great thing about role play is writing it how you want your character to do so. Just because you can do/see/etc. something, doesn't mean you know why it's happening, what it means, etc. That's pretty standard how things go in these sorts of storytelling.

It's also not totally useless. If you are looking for someone with a fire aura and find some tracks that have a fire aura, well, that means you're on the right path.

There are certainly books out there on the subject too. I imagine if you speak with some of the many librarians, mage guild leaders, or former guild members, you can probably find one of the two books that I know are in shelves out there.

That sort of hand waving has led to people telling my fully covered elf's that their ears were showing when a hood is worn, and the ears were not in fact showing. As for books being the answer to things. There may be a blue haired hin of mine whose name is Liar that may or may not write books with completely false made-up information. If I have had this idea as a concept, it is quite possible others may have as well.

I do know when I RP D&D in RL my character's knowledge is not based on what I as a player can figure out. It is based on the stats on the sheet. I the real-life player might not know how exactly magic works; however, my knowledge arcana skill check will help my character know how magic works.

[Xerah]

That sort of hand waving has led to people telling my fully covered elf's that their ears were showing when a hood is worn, and the ears were not in fact showing. As for books being the answer to things. There may be a blue haired hin of mine whose name is Liar that may or may not write books with completely false made-up information. If I have had this idea as a concept, it is quite possible others may have as well.

I do know when I RP D&D in RL my character's knowledge is not based on what I as a player can figure out. It is based on the stats on the sheet. I the real-life player might not know how exactly magic works; however, my knowledge arcana skill check will help my character know how magic works.

That is how the system work and how they are designed. Your fully covered elf didn’t happen to perfectly cover themselves. Maybe there was an imperfection of the covering and it was spotted. If it says elf, then that is what they see. I don’t see the issue.

I also don’t see the other issue you’re trying to bring up either. Games have had these sorts of things forever. You don’t have to engage with the system if you don’t like it or don’t want to spend time trying to learn it.

[chris a gogo]

The divination aura's and the deck of stars were very fun to learn.

Once you learn it all it's kind of mundane and it's something that can be done in game by trial and error.
Plus it's quite exciting when you find people with the other markers in there aura's than just the elemental information.

[Edens_Fall]

I still have no clue what any of the diviner auras really mean, which means I can't roleplay them. I've never been able to find any documentation as to what they're supposed to mean IC to the character perceiving them. I've tried to ask both OOC and even IC (pretending that a greater diviner somehow wouldn't know) and gotten nowhere.

It's frustratingly nebulous.

That strikes me as precisely the sort of thing that ought to be explained somewhere.

There's at least one large literary collection in Andunor that has several books on the topic. From the cards to the auras. One must simply reach out IG and ask to see them. The Surface also has at least three collections with books that I know of, only one of which might be a challenge to reach for non-elves. The point is there is IG lore about the topic. You just have to put in the effort to find it or start your own RP investigation. That's kind of the fun of it you know. Meeting new people in your search for answers. Feeling accomplished when the truth is revealed. From a personal experience, it's a pretty nice high.