Minotaur ECL

[Kalthariam]

So, I am a little confused.

Why are Minotaur's higher ECL than Ogres?

I use ogres as an example, because they are probably the closest Equivalent.

Minotaur's just flat out weaker than Ogres, but have higher ECL, which locks them out of getting anything but minor gifts.

I'm confused as to why this is the case? Isn't ECL usually an adjustment made because a race is -too- powerful and thus doesn't need more gifts, and levels slower?

Is it the weapon focus feat? Because Gnolls get two free feats and are only ECL +1 (As well as physical immunity and some skill bonuses)

I doubt it's the Maze immunity, I don't think I've -ever- seen the maze spell ever cast. Nor do I think it's the -track ability that is well.. kinda pointless?

They have the same physical immunity of most of the Underdark Races that all have lower ECL than they do. (Heck, Ogres get +2 Untyped AC over them to boot)

I don't think +4 spot, listen, search is worth a severe inflation of ECL.

Heck even all the Half-giants are ECL +3!

So.. why? Minotaur's ECL feels over inflated in comparison to all the other races available.

[Biolab00]

ECL +3 or +4 still allows you to take minor gift.
There's nothing to compare between +3 or +4 since leveling as never been easier since introduction of writs several years ago

ECL +0 allows you to take 2 major gift + a minor gift
ECL +1 allows you to take a major gift + a minor gift
ECL +2 allows you to take a major gift + a minor gift ( This is where and why Drow is always said to be stronger, the same can be said with Orogs now. )
ECL +3 or +4 are the same, you can only choose minor gift.

[Kalthariam]

Does +3 get 1 or 2 Minor gifts? Because if it's 2, then it does matter. (Lower exp still also matters, but not everyone's that fixated on it)

Because, again.. the issue is that Minotaur's are +4 ECL, despite being weaker than races that are lower ECL, and many of their benefits are so niche they literally never come up.

You could Argue Orogs or Gnolls are Stronger than Minotaurs, and still get to take major gifts which puts them even higher than Minotaurs, at still again, much lower ECL.

I just don't understand why Minotaur's have a higher ECL than even Rashaka and Vampires.

They have the highest ECL, and are the only +4 ECL race that is playable right now, and it just doesn't make sense to me.

The only other +4 ECL Race that's even on the Wiki, is DRAGONS. Which Minotaur's do not come anywhere near approaching the power of.

[Biolab00]

You can only ever get 1 minor gift.
+3 or +4 ECL does not matter with gift, it's still just one minor gift.

ECL used to matter when leveling was very very difficult in the past.
Now it's just...meh

And no, minotaur is strong as it is though. +4 spot is really something with minor gift that improves spot.
Not to mention there's cleric / favored soul based minotaurs.
Some chose Minotaur over Ogres, specifically because of spot gift and also ofc, appearance.
Ogres just look dumb.

[Kalthariam]

It's still less exp per kill, which, while some people consider it pointless, my Minotaur's still took alot longer to level than my other characters.

[Algol]

Ogres get penalty to dex(needed for WM, you want 12 full buffed otherwise, which ogres can't do without investing gear to it) and intellect (needed by everyone). They are objectively worse than minotaurs.

[Shadowy Reality]

To put things in perspective: a half-orc earth genasi with a STR gift is only +2 ECL, and starts with +2 STR over Minotaurs at the cost of 2 CON.

Half-orcs are also medium and Minotaurs are large, so for the same STR build a half-orc genasi will have +2 AB than the Minotaur for less ECL.

This doesn't make any sense. Maybe when Minotaurs also had Spring Attack for free, but it has not been the case for a while now.

[Kalthariam]

Ogres also get +6 Strength, +2 Con, +2 Untyped AC, and a full 5% physical damage reduction.

If for whatever reason your looking to make a dex dependant or int depenant class, sure chosing a race with a malus in those stats sucks, probably shouldn't do it.

Every class now has a plethora of base skill points, the negative to Int imho is not that big of a deal.