Shop Tax

[Definately Not A Mimic]

Could we revisit the idea of a tax on shops that sit with things that don't sell?

I know it should be moderated by governments and such and I'm sure many will think that people should do what they want with their owned shops. However shops continue to get worse instead of better. There are many that are stacked full of high priced items, and while I can't see the sales log to know, appear to never sell more than one to two things every few weeks.
While yes, this isn't real life, there is zero way a shop that doesn't make much money would stay open. There are bills and budgets and taxes and maintenance costs. While you pay the tax monthly on them in game automatically it is low and mostly negligible. At one point, possibly more, it was discussed taxing a stall based on things just sitting and collecting dust. After some shopping around, seeing shops that have less than ten items and never seeming to restock (I know, I could be missing when it stocks then sells again but I am one of the crazy people who check shops every day to two days) and seeing shops that sit on stacks of adamantine ore, runics, the same suit of armor for a RL year, it feels something needs to be done.
As well not all shops are in a government area to be monitored that way but still in a location that a monthly tax is a thing, there should be a maintenance fee or something to encourage people to do more with the shop or make some effort to sell rather than not caring if the item is there for months before finally getting a slightly more coin sell.

It is simply a thought to make either shops more worthwhile for those of us who look for things constantly or a turnover on them so others have a chance to make something of them.

[Dreams]

Agreed. Too many shops are priced in a way that they essentially end up being glorified storage (now 30 slots).

[Second Breakfast]

There are a few of us who use shops as a meet-up place/venue first and a shop second; when I am in-game, I want to run events and do cool things, not feel obligated that I need to go and farm for runics. Beyond that, a shop's sole contribution isn't necessarily the money it makes but also the vibes you get from it. A shop can be cool and add to the environment without being about the maximizing of profits.

There are a few shops that don't move anything, have exorbitant pricing, and operate as glorified storage, but something like this sounds like it would force shops towards being like a real-life job. No, thank you.

[Kuma]

There's something to be said for shops that double up as quarters (the ones in Guld and Cordor for instance) that can be used as venues or public fronts for other businesses (newspapers, galleries, theatres, taverns, etc) that I wouldn't want to see stifled by such a change.

Instead of coding a solution to the problem of storage shops (which includes any shop that prices so high as to encourage haggling/bartering. This is using it as storage, and not the intended use for shops. Use temporary stalls or hawk your wares actively) I'd encourage people to just report them - to IC governments if applicable, then DMs if not.

[CNS]

You could add a significant gold drain on settlements so that they need to care about tax income.

[Cthuletta]

Well as far as shops that 'don't seem to move things', some shops are restocked almost constantly so you wouldn't really see what all they sell when they dedicate time to the same wares! (Think wands, potions, scrolls, stuff you can remake on the fly)

When it comes to people treating shops as glorified storage or really high prices that one might deem too expensive, or a lack of restocking, it's a good opportunity to RP with a government leader and maybe have a chat ICly. I've seen instances before, in the UD I believe, where they had Trade leaders in the districts who monitored the shops and had set IC rules. Also seen Trade Ministers who checked shop logs consistently to see how the shops are doing so they could see what was selling, what wasn't, checking prices and so on. Even seen them do Leader Board type things, which was always a lot of fun!

The rules for shops was stuff like 'Must have X amount of items in the shop' or 'Must sell X amount of items in a month or your prices will be looked at', and if the prices were fine, you were fine. If they weren't, they gave a warning to adjust them or potentially had the shop removed, as leadership CAN take shops away if they feel the owner isn't doing their part in running an adequate shop. There's also no real way to increase tax on one shop without effecting all the others, so tax increase would just bug those who already run decent shops into making less, and probably increasing prices more. This is also a government RP thing, as I believe the Settlement Leader calls those shots if I'm not mistaken.

So I suppose my shorter answer is that this is a good roleplay opportunity. Shops are a handy mechanic, but they are also an IC/RP thing. If we enforce them more harshly purely with mechanics, that does take away opportunity in my opinion, both for natural resolution and the shop owner improving before getting something taken away. Perhaps your character would be interested in a Trade Leader/Minister type position and can persue that?

[TheDoctor]

Could we revisit the idea of a tax on shops that sit with things that don't sell?

I know it should be moderated by governments and such

It is.. Bring it up IC'ly

I know for a fact certain places police their shops for just that kind of thing.

[Xerah]

Could we revisit the idea of a tax on shops that sit with things that don't sell?

I know it should be moderated by governments and such

It is.. Bring it up IC'ly

I know for a fact certain places police their shops for just that kind of thing.

Bad shops annoy me, but even more are the exploitative ones (over charging for basic items that new characters need). It's also really difficult to act and take away shop without taking upon massive IC hate (even if it is very reasonable to do so) and OOC hate.

We've seen some long term shops that sell a few things for way overpriced (especially when you can buy the things for half that price at a Guldorand NPC, which is just effectively a new player tax since veteran players know to just take a ship) which is in a starting settlement.

Then there are other shops that aren't able to be controlled (i.e. shops in the wilderness or magic towers). Can't do anything about that.

And what's the line? A 100 stack of addy (or runic supplies) sits for sale at 75k a piece when normally you can find plenty around for 50k a piece. So that 100 stack stays there for months upon months. But is that okay? I don't know. It would be annoying to deal with ICly and OOCly (and seems to be difficult for DMs to really police). So it turns into storage (but who needs 75 Chardalyn stones since they'll never sell for 250k) or something to show off. I don't get it.

My big wish would be for some things to be sold by NPCs at slightly higher than current market value (i.e. you can buy addy for 65k or tier 3 runic for 650k, or whatever) to help control the market.

[Ruzuke]

I would politely suggest that if such shops were handled ICly it would not be mentioned here. I would point the example of Skal were new players are taxed far more than what an item is worth. Then items for sell such as rogue stones, mithril dust, and items which are used beyond the level of Skal. Are you a warlock ending armor? One is for sale for over 200k.

There is a limited number of market stalls available and while I can be tied to the game and checking on items for sale for 3-4 hours I rather spend my time RPing about what interest me rather than RPing standing at my shop.

Note: The one time I RPed standing at my shop selling items 40 RL minutes later someone stole all the items in the temp shop.

[Spriggan Bride]

One problem is there’s a huge difference between someone who’s well connected IC and on Discord who can access raw materials for crafting easily and someone who’s independent whether that means they’re a newer player or playing someone who can’t fall into a big trade guild. The former can stock great stuff at narrow margins, the latter may struggle to keep up and have higher prices and could take a while to find their niche products that sell… but I argue they need to be allowed room to do all that.

Ultimately it seems like a settlement leadership issue since there’s a big difference between someone trying but their shop sales are still weak and someone just using it for storage.

[Xerah]

Ultimately it seems like a settlement leadership issue since there’s a big difference between someone trying but their shop sales are still weak and someone just using it for storage.

Anyone who's checking shops enough to know would find the difference between the two pretty noticeable. One option might be to allow for individual shops to increase tax rate. That's not much difference in terms of how it will be taken vs just exvicting someone, but at least it's a small step.

But that doesn't help the ones not in a settlement.

[Definately Not A Mimic]

The suggestion isn't to make running a shop a RL job equivalent. It is a thought to keep people from just tossing things in and then not caring if they sell or not. If there is no consequence of any kind for things not moving then often times they won't. If there is no consequence for not stocking then sometimes people won't make the effort to stock.

I'm not saying its most shops, I'm not saying its even half the shops, but it is some shops. And yes, again, it can be ic and government controlled but not all shops can, such as the mage tower or the free port in Guldorand. There are obvious places that are in good locations. And please don't immediately think I'm calling out those specific ones, it is just locations mentioned.

Instead of a flood of dm reports after actively trying to do something why not have another fee tied to how long the same item tag sits in the stall and how many slots sit open on average for the month? It won't hurt anyone who has a turn over rate on their products or people who sell and restock and sell again. It will only do something for those pieces or stacks that never sell or for those empty slots that aren't hardly ever filled.

There are limited shops in the server and a lot of people who want to try their hand at it. Maybe a little something to help them get good use or become available for others to try wouldn't be such a bad thing and being automated won't add to the dm work load.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

One problem is there’s a huge difference between someone who’s well connected IC and on Discord who can access raw materials for crafting easily and someone who’s independent whether that means they’re a newer player or playing someone who can’t fall into a big trade guild. The former can stock great stuff at narrow margins, the latter may struggle to keep up and have higher prices and could take a while to find their niche products that sell… but I argue they need to be allowed room to do all that.

This really isn't the thing you are describing. Most crafted items sell for enough of a profit for the effort put in gathering the materials even if you buy said materials. Anything cheaper gets scoffed up immediately. These items only fluctuate based on how many crafters there are with shops currently. So sometimes you make 20-30k off a high-end item, sometimes you make 50-70. And again, that's buying everything. Using resources you gathered yourself obviously cuts well into the cost (though I count what I could have sold it for in the final tally anyways), but most of the easy stuff to gather is cheap anyways, so I at least tend to buy a fair bit of adamantine and high-end gems when I am on a crafting spree.

I think what most people mean when they say bad shops are shops filled with things that can easily be found by low and mid-level characters or even worse things like coal, wood, iron, ect all at unreasonable prices. It's great to have shops with these things in them, but only if they actually sell. And for that to happen, you need to be reasonable with your pricing.

And if you can't even do that, the question "why do you even a need a shop" becomes quite valid. Thats not to say pcs should be running around yoinking shops away from people without first trying to help them get it right (trade minister actually does have a purpose!), but if that fails then hell yeah chancellors or chancellor equivalent's, get in there like it's your birthday.

[Mamma ama Warlock]

It does feel like shops are just glorified display cases to show how many addy ingots this character has accumulated. Accompanied by 5-10 items that have no business being there at prices that are set.

No, saying that "seek out people who will craft X for you much cheaper" ignores the fact that shops exist for this exact reason and don't do their job properly if that is something you have to default to.

I think there are way too many permanent shops. They no longer serve to sell, but just store items. If you want shop (or merchant guild) RP, the trade houses like the ones in the outskirts and around Cordor should be the goal, and a costly one, that'd have to be maintainted at a higher cost. Input from the player-led governments should help prevent the real estate hogging that will inevitably happen, that's a good driver for RP as well.

edit: also, to add to the point of directing the flow of RP into more concentrated spots: reducing the number of stalls available and increasing the importance of player-ran houses of commerce and merchant guilds can lead to higher quality RP. Having an existential need to congregate will lead to higher player presence in this field of RP, and would make the economics a lot more competitive, not just old characters hogging shop spots for storage or miscellaneous items. It would become fertile soil for a lot of great stuff, and would facilitate appearance of other players (or player collectives, to be precise) like the Cinderstone empire of not-so-long-ago. Personal static shops should go back to being a luxury & a status item.

[Aeryeris]

I would like a DM to weigh in here:

I am currently under the impression the DM team would not appreciate having settlement leaders use eviction powers to remove people from properties or shops for perceived lack of activity or effort, and that instead this responsibility falls with the DMs.

I do imagine there is a bit of leeway here specifically for shops where the player government could set expectations of shopkeepers and then after some RP and failed attempts to resolve any problems with the shop, move to eviction?

I have never seen mass eviction of shops or properties purely based on the activity or incorrect shop usage, and don't imagine this would be a desirable thing coming from PC settlement leadership?

[DM Nixie]

I would like a DM to weigh in here:

I am currently under the impression the DM team would not appreciate having settlement leaders use eviction powers to remove people from properties or shops for perceived lack of activity or effort, and that instead this responsibility falls with the DMs.

I do imagine there is a bit of leeway here specifically for shops where the player government could set expectations of shopkeepers and then after some RP and failed attempts to resolve any problems with the shop, move to eviction?

I have never seen mass eviction of shops or properties purely based on the activity or incorrect shop usage, and don't imagine this would be a desirable thing coming from PC settlement leadership?

This is not true. To quote from our rules:

If you are a settlement leader, you may evict, pariah, exile anyone for anything. This is within your power for your character to abuse. It’s not really a problem unless you’re just obviously griefing. Every time you perform one of these actions, you must do it in person with the character you’re evicting, making pariah or exiling.

It's not "a bit of leeway" to permit evictions after some RP and failed attempts to resolve problems with the shop; that's good roleplay functioning as intended. We would far rather unproductive shops be resolved ICly if possible, and typically won't interfere unless the settlement government efforts to roleplay with the unproductive shop owner (such as sent messages, left letters on the shop asking for a meeting) are consistently failing...and note that it's also a rule-break to avoid exile/pariah/eviction by deliberately and consistently avoiding attempts from a player government to speak with you!

---

Editing in an addition to make sure this is perfectly clear: if a shop is settlement-controlled, the DM team will not interfere with a glorified-storage shop unless/until settlement leadership has exhausted reasonable options to interact with the shop owner, as with any eviction. These things should be resolved with roleplay when possible. Simply evicting an unproductive shop is not prohibited, but we do encourage players to consider options that provide more opportunities for roleplay, such as giving guidance for changes and a deadline for improvement.

[Ellisaria]

Thanks for clarifying that, Nixie!

[MRFTW]

I ran a shop that was fully stocked with a variety
of fun stuff all the time and I sold precisely 3 items for 99% of the time:

Portal lenses
Diamonds
Emeralds

OP is correct when they say that without access to the shop's logs, one has no idea what's going on. People would ask why I never restock the shop mere moments after I'd sold hundreds of thousands of gold worth of items.

It was so busy I'd have to log in before work on a morning and immediately after getting home, as well as before bed and it still wasn't enough. Despite this, characters (and more rarely their players) would often tell me I never restocked my shop because the 3 items I was selling had sold again while I was at work / asleep.

Sometimes I'd catch the GOAT Khorin buying me out while I was hanging out, invisible, enjoying my morning coffee, knowing that it's going to be 12 hours before I can craft more lenses. It's easy to see where these 'your store never restocks' rumors can come from but unless you're behind the curtain, you really can't know.

The only place DMs should really be looking at shops is Skal or Shadow Wharftown etc, where there is no settlement leader. We had some really crap shops in shadow Wharftown for a while, can't speak for them currently.

[Definately Not A Mimic]

That is why the proposition is something automated. If you're selling things then it wouldn't tax you extra. It was asking for something that will flag things that don't move or slots that continuously sit empty by using an average there. If you're refilling the automated would see that even if players do not.

[TheDoctor]

I ran a shop that was fully stocked with a variety
of fun stuff all the time and I sold precisely 3 items for 99% of the time:

Portal lenses
Diamonds
Emeralds

OP is correct when they say that without access to the shop's logs, one has no idea what's going on. People would ask why I never restock the shop mere moments after I'd sold hundreds of thousands of gold worth of items.

It was so busy I'd have to log in before work on a morning and immediately after getting home, as well as before bed and it still wasn't enough. Despite this, characters (and more rarely their players) would often tell me I never restocked my shop because the 3 items I was selling had sold again while I was at work / asleep.

Sometimes I'd catch the GOAT Khorin buying me out while I was hanging out, invisible, enjoying my morning coffee, knowing that it's going to be 12 hours before I can craft more lenses. It's easy to see where these 'your store never restocks' rumors can come from but unless you're behind the curtain, you really can't know.

The only place DMs should really be looking at shops is Skal or Shadow Wharftown etc, where there is no settlement leader. We had some really crap shops in shadow Wharftown for a while, can't speak for them currently.

Yeah I got a letter from some trade minister czar guy fellah type and he was tryin to say that the shop needs to be stocked more and better blah blah blah.... Dude was clueless.. This was 2 days after having the shop and had allready made over half a million. It's hillarious at times... Bank account keeps growing on a massive scale.. settlements getting lovely taxes from it.. I still get letter... You need sell more things.

LOL

[MRFTW]

Yeah I got a letter from some trade minister czar guy fellah type and he was tryin to say that the shop needs to be stocked more and better blah blah blah.... Dude was clueless.. This was 2 days after having the shop and had allready made over half a million. It's hillarious at times... Bank account keeps growing on a massive scale.. settlements getting lovely taxes from it.. I still get letter... You need sell more things.

LOL

I've never been one, but I think trade ministers for settlements have access to their settlement's sales log. Mine wasn't in a settlement per se and didn't have any oversight like that.

[Dreams]

For every IG month that an item does not sell, tax 10% of its listed value from the owner of the shop. That way there is a disincentive from letting things sit forever, people need to be more attentive to pricing-for-sale as a result, and glorified storage gets actively punished. Everybody wins except for people who are either misusing the system or are poor shopkeeps.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

For every IG month that an item does not sell, tax 10% of its listed value from the owner of the shop. That way there is a disincentive from letting things sit forever, people need to be more attentive to pricing-for-sale as a result, and glorified storage gets actively punished. Everybody wins except for people who are either misusing the system or are poor shopkeeps.

Just so you realize what you are saying here, if I run a wood shop that stocks a good variety of both mid and high-end gear for folks who use those products and sell them at a reasonable price, I would be taxed 10% of the items value because 8 out of 10 new characters for the next real-life month is a Harbringer. So, essentially running the best type of shop you could on the server I would end up being punished for because a new and exciting class came out, or because the classes that most utilize my items got hit hard with the nerf hammer.

So now I'm just selling consumables at the lowest price possible to make a few coins profit and praying people can do math and few members of my competition don't dip below the profit line. And by competition, I mean everyone since we all now have to sell the same consumables that sell in bunches, meaning none of us are selling a damn thing. Congratulations, you have just crashed the entire craft able economy!

So, yeah, tax in this context is bad m'kay? Just rely on trade ministers, you elected someone to the settlement leadership position and the position of trade minister is the main (only?) real job it requires. If they suck at it, elect someone new.

[chris a gogo]

Just rely on trade ministers, you elected someone to the settlement leadership position and the position of trade minister is the main (only?) real job it requires. If they suck at it, elect someone new.

Pretty much this.
I spent awhile helping a trade minister check which shops were stagnant and over priced, they got them altered or removed this was ages ago now, but it is a thankless job and the player of the trade minister always get some grief.

[Diegovog]

Shops are 80% location and luck.

Even if you have a good location, there are always people who sell consumables at a near-base price. I've even seen them at literally base price. They are trying to be "nice" to people, but this just hurts merchants. This happens more often when shop owners are inactive.

So if you sell consumables and someone is doing charity in a nearby shop, well, you pretty much won't sell even well stocked and located.