Arelith

I don't understand the nerf to Ice Storm for Feylocks.

This was their only spell usable to clear PvE content that has mind immunity, didn't do all that much damage, and wasn't infinitely spammable on top of you without running the risk of damaging yourself with friendly fire.

It already didn't refresh the spell slot if you used Empower Spell, which you would need to do in order to outpace blasting in PvP.

Why remove the only damage spell from Feylock? Sure, they can blast, but Feylock is not a very good blasting pact and anyone who wants to play a blaster has much better options to choose from.

I find it funny how spell-lock got nerfed, and yet blaster remains completely untouched. Which is arguably stronger for pve and absolutely stronger for pvp.

Kythana wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 22, 2024 3:51 am

I find it funny how spell-lock got nerfed, and yet blaster remains completely untouched. Which is arguably stronger for pve and absolutely stronger for pvp.

Agree++

I think caster-based warlocks suffer the most from this. Arguably, they may have been an unintended archetype compared to melee, blaster, summoner, or some combination thereof.

Caster-based was actually my favorite, as you could both fit more utility and pass as something less nefarious. I think you can still do this, but it is going to be rough, depending on your pacts. Caster-based warlock will now have an even more difficult time finishing fights.

What's even more funny is that this change also goes against the direction of the entire summon change.

By making it so that spellcaster warlocks have lost their ability to spam reliably damaging aoe spells across multiple pacts, it's made them rely more on their summons, which those builds often take.

WARLOCK:
Pact Spell Adjustments: Ice Storm, Sound Lance, Withering Ray, and Darkbolt now have a replenishment timer of 3 minutes.

It's just my guess here -
These 4 spells do not have counterplay for PVE monsters because they effectively still does damage, especially Withering Ray and Sound Lance with Empowered / Maximized even when saving throw passed. Note that most monsters do not actually have much resistance against the above 4 spells, especially Withering Ray and Dark bolt.

Chain Lightning, Fireball etc was spared perhaps because it's able to be saved against reflex for half damage or nothing if they have evasion?

Blaster Warlocks need to spend 5 Feats (not including greater pact and epic pact ) AND Pure to essentially become viable
But with these adjustments, Warlock / Loremaster will no longer be able to get infinite viable damaging spell with zero investment.
Granted, this actually restrict Warlock from multiclass though OR Multipact

But hey, that's just my guess here.

Seems overkill, some of these spells were a little too strong to be infinitely spammable but a 3min cooldown makes them virtually useless give they dont have any other special effects (like tentacle spells). I feel like adding a custom 6 second cooldown so you can only use once per round instead of twice would have been enough.

Kythana wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 22, 2024 3:51 am

I find it funny how spell-lock got nerfed, and yet blaster remains completely untouched. Which is arguably stronger for pve and absolutely stronger for pvp.

My blaster just lost infi withering ray. wdym untouched...

Biolab00 wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 22, 2024 4:38 am

It's just my guess here -
Chain Lightning, Fireball etc was spared perhaps because it's able to be saved against reflex for half damage or nothing if they have evasion?

I think you are right on this intuition. Anything that has a reflex save for half on Arelith is borderline useless in the high save economy and completely useless in the face of evasion and improved evasion. What is more head scratching is that these nerfed spells should probably be the template for a more meaningful pass/save spell economy going forward.

Saveless inficast damage spell were too powerful. Ice storm, Withering ray. These 2 in particular just destroy packs of mobs.

That being said: Eldritch Chain or Doom still work very well (for now), and are perfectly viable. I understand that dualpact builds don't take them, but perhaps that might be a good idea to take Doom.

Mamma ama Warlock wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 23, 2024 3:15 am

Saveless inficast damage spell were too powerful. Ice storm, Withering ray. These 2 in particular just destroy packs of mobs.

That being said: Eldritch Chain or Doom still work very well (for now), and are perfectly viable. I understand that dualpact builds don't take them, but perhaps that might be a good idea to take Doom.

Ice Storm was the only saveless spell, which clocks in at 15d6, but has the problem of using perhaps the two most resisted damage types in the game. Withering Ray is great at 10 + 20d4, slightly out-pacing IS on a limited target set, but has a fort save for half. To be really good at using any of these requires some feat investment, to include at least one meta-magic spell and ideally two spell foci. Thus the caster-lock concept.

Neither of these, even as good as they were pre-nerf, could outshine an invested blaster. Trust me, I have an EM III + Precision + Agonizing blaster. For the record, that is a saveless 27d6 + 26 13-14 blast with a secondary debilitating effect. Now, you can't metamagic a blast beyond the shaping, which I have not mentioned, but is required for invested blasting. But, blasting works on pretty much everything, to include the magic immune things caster-locks could not touch. Moreover, blasting has the possibility of critting, and when an invested blaster crits, chunks rain down.

All of this to say, I'm again not sure the problem we are solving and whatever it is comes at the steep price of a build option and many people's character investment.

If there is still a problem, I personally would rather see some tweaks to damage numbers rather than timers. That would keep caster-lock alive.

RedGiant wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 23, 2024 4:33 am

Neither of these, even as good as they were pre-nerf, could outshine an invested blaster. Trust me, I have an EM III + Precision + Agonizing blaster. For the record, that is a saveless 27d6 + 26 blast with a secondary debilitating effect. Now, you can't metamagic a blast beyond the shaping, which I have not mentioned, but is required for invested blasting. But, blasting works on pretty much everything, to include the magic immune things caster-locks could not touch. Moreover, blasting has the possibility of critting, and when an invested blaster crits, chunks rain down.

Don't worry, they've never said that this is the final change to warlocks

RedGiant wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 23, 2024 4:33 am

Mamma ama Warlock wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 23, 2024 3:15 am

Saveless inficast damage spell were too powerful. Ice storm, Withering ray. These 2 in particular just destroy packs of mobs.

That being said: Eldritch Chain or Doom still work very well (for now), and are perfectly viable. I understand that dualpact builds don't take them, but perhaps that might be a good idea to take Doom.

Ice Storm was the only saveless spell, which clocks in at 15d6, but has the problem of using perhaps the two most resisted damage types in the game. Withering Ray is great at 10 + 20d4, slightly out-pacing IS on a limited target set, but has a fort save for half. To be really good at using any of these requires some feat investment, to include at least one meta-magic spell and ideally two spell foci. Thus the caster-lock concept.

Neither of these, even as good as they were pre-nerf, could outshine an invested blaster. Trust me, I have an EM III + Precision + Agonizing blaster. For the record, that is a saveless 27d6 + 26 blast with a secondary debilitating effect. Now, you can't metamagic a blast beyond the shaping, which I have not mentioned, but is required for invested blasting. But, blasting works on pretty much everything, to include the magic immune things caster-locks could not touch. Moreover, blasting has the possibility of critting, and when an invested blaster crits, chunks rain down.

All of this to say, I'm again not sure the problem we are solving and whatever it is comes at the steep price of a build option and many people's character investment.

If there is still a problem, I personally would rather see some tweaks to damage numbers rather than timers. That would keep caster-lock alive.

tweaking damage weakens non inficasters is basically the big issue right now

not just warlock, but for a while people were rerolling their characters into warlocks because they were just a better caster overall

imo this nerf was meant to target warlock builds who didnt have chain/doom blasts for aoe damage.
This includes but not limited to:
pretty much any melee warlock
warlock palemaster (since the blast damage is low and the withering ray dc is high)
summoner warlocks who took dual pact instead of doom blast.
we shall not be strong and also clear fast for free.

RIP withering ray 2020-2024.

In Sorrow We Trust wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 23, 2024 6:20 am

for a while people were rerolling their characters into warlocks because they were just a better caster overall

Did this happen beyond one person mentioning it on the forums?

The issue was really spamming empowered withering ray put out too much dmg. Removing the ability to get inficast on metamagic castings of it would have worked fine without gimping feylock in the process

Well, it looks like I need to relevel, which is a massive pain for a level 30 toon.

Star pact gets 4 damage spells.

Dark bolt.
Withering ray.
Sound lance.
Frigid darkness

So the only attack spell they have left is the level 2 Frigid darkness.

All these warlock options have eldrich blast. That’s the main mechanical theme of the class. The other options are good for flavour. One type shouldn’t have damage spells (use dominate, hold, confuse, etc). That’s a good path forward to make them different between the paths.

Xerah wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 23, 2024 10:09 pm

All these warlock options have eldrich blast. That’s the main mechanical theme of the class. The other options are good for flavour. One type shouldn’t have damage spells (use dominate, hold, confuse, etc). That’s a good path forward to make them different between the paths.

Unless you want to play in Dis, Shavador, the Underdark and/or Senccliff these evil pact using warlocks being seen used their cast powers will be tossed out of Myon, Bendir, Brog, and Cordor for making deals with dark forces using dark powers. So the smart warlock wanting to be able to speak to their friends will use spells to blend in.

It is like seeing the red glow of a melee weapon and people saying your sword is glowing red you must be a demon/devil worshiper necromancer using dark powers. Except it is worse.

Ruzuke wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 23, 2024 10:44 pm

Xerah wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 23, 2024 10:09 pm

All these warlock options have eldrich blast. That’s the main mechanical theme of the class. The other options are good for flavour. One type shouldn’t have damage spells (use dominate, hold, confuse, etc). That’s a good path forward to make them different between the paths.

Unless you want to play in Dis, Shavador, the Underdark and/or Senccliff these evil pact using warlocks being seen used their cast powers will be tossed out of Myon, Bendir, Brog, and Cordor for making deals with dark forces using dark powers. So the smart warlock wanting to be able to speak to their friends will use spells to blend in.

It is like seeing the red glow of a melee weapon and people saying your sword is glowing red you must be a demon/devil worshiper necromancer using dark powers. Except it is worse.

I don't want to defend the change too much... I think the cooldown should be shorter on offensive spells, maybe 30 seconds like a lot of cleric domain abilities. I wonder if the 3 minutes is just because that's the cooldown on warlock haste.

But, if you're hiding that you are a warlock you do have plenty of options.. Most have other spammable spells for CC or defense, most have an infinite lower tier damage spell (and access to cantrips if nothing else) and you can still spam by burning through your spell slots sorcerer style if it comes down to it. I don't think this kills that necessarily it just makes you have to be more strategic.

But again, the cooldown is way too long for a damage spell, I really hope that could be looked at. I totally understand why infinite empowered withering ray had to go but 3 minutes seems arbitrary.

Eyeliner wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 23, 2024 11:04 pm

Ruzuke wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 23, 2024 10:44 pm

Xerah wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 23, 2024 10:09 pm

All these warlock options have eldrich blast. That’s the main mechanical theme of the class. The other options are good for flavour. One type shouldn’t have damage spells (use dominate, hold, confuse, etc). That’s a good path forward to make them different between the paths.

Unless you want to play in Dis, Shavador, the Underdark and/or Senccliff these evil pact using warlocks being seen used their cast powers will be tossed out of Myon, Bendir, Brog, and Cordor for making deals with dark forces using dark powers. So the smart warlock wanting to be able to speak to their friends will use spells to blend in.

It is like seeing the red glow of a melee weapon and people saying your sword is glowing red you must be a demon/devil worshiper necromancer using dark powers. Except it is worse.

I don't want to defend the change too much... I think the cooldown should be shorter on offensive spells, maybe 30 seconds like a lot of cleric domain abilities. I wonder if the 3 minutes is just because that's the cooldown on warlock haste.

But, if you're hiding that you are a warlock you do have plenty of options.. Most have other spammable spells for CC or defense, most have an infinite lower tier damage spell (and access to cantrips if nothing else) and you can still spam by burning through your spell slots sorcerer style if it comes down to it. I don't think this kills that necessarily it just makes you have to be more strategic.

But again, the cooldown is way too long for a damage spell, I really hope that could be looked at. I totally understand why infinite empowered withering ray had to go but 3 minutes seems arbitrary.

I agree withering ray was powerful, however looking at feylock not having a damage spell. I agree with it. I could use freeze and then the cantrip flare. Was already in a bind with enemies that had immunity mind magic (NPC). I was not a big fan of ice storm because it hurt my caster and his allies. That or (because my warlock is openly a warlock) he is a heal bot.

Post by Xerah » 23 Mar 2024 22:09

All these warlock options have eldrich blast. That’s the main mechanical theme of the class. The other options are good for flavour. One type shouldn’t have damage spells (use dominate, hold, confuse, etc). That’s a good path forward to make them different between the paths.

EB is a ranged touch attack, so you need to max out dex for it to be useful, if you were playing a caster you had maxed out charisma. it's a very different build with very different feats not to mention that playing a EB warlock is unbelievably dull to the point of each encounter is click once on on member of spawn group watch everything die run to next group repeat.
That becomes your entire PvE game play, I know I've tried it, it's boring and risk free.

I played 2 blasters and didn’t max out dex. That’s not necessary.

Eldrich doom, is based on Cha, which is where the AOE damage from warlock should be coming from (which is why I assume these aoe got limited). You already have high Cha so it’s a very simple swap if you want a warlock good with AOE.

Not to repeat myself from the last thread, but this is another case where the developer commentary would have helped immensely in letting people understand the need and corresponding reasons for the change besides warlocks are over tuned.

Xerah wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 23, 2024 11:49 pm

I played 2 blasters and didn’t max out dex. That’s not necessary.

Yes, you don't need to max out dex to play a blaster. Though one of the main points of feylock was that you traded some blasting power (compared to infernal, abyssal, fathomless) for a miss chance utility on blast and better spellbook. It was already difficult enough to make the spells work given the high save meta and lack of ESF, and now PvE is even harder as feylocks are completely without a usable damage spell.

It is possible to just play a blaster, but if that's the solution, why even bother supporting all of these other pacts? Why bother giving warlocks spell replenishment at all if the blast is the only thing that matters?

I think this change hits the fey and star pacts especially hard as their pact blasting bonuses are weaker on account of their spellbook. We'll see fewer of the different warlock pacts and more of the same cookie-cutter infernal/abyssal/fathomless blasters. The server will be less creative and less fun.

Ruzuke wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 23, 2024 10:44 pm

Xerah wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 23, 2024 10:09 pm

All these warlock options have eldrich blast. That’s the main mechanical theme of the class. The other options are good for flavour. One type shouldn’t have damage spells (use dominate, hold, confuse, etc). That’s a good path forward to make them different between the paths.

Unless you want to play in Dis, Shavador, the Underdark and/or Senccliff these evil pact using warlocks being seen used their cast powers will be tossed out of Myon, Bendir, Brog, and Cordor for making deals with dark forces using dark powers. So the smart warlock wanting to be able to speak to their friends will use spells to blend in.

It is like seeing the red glow of a melee weapon and people saying your sword is glowing red you must be a demon/devil worshiper necromancer using dark powers. Except it is worse.

I am sorry you have had such a harsh experience, but being a warlock does not immediately get you exiled. Summoning undead and evil outsiders will. Warlock is a very popular class, and the general perception of simple blasters is far less severe. Exile and KoS are just not the sentiment among a decent part of players. The chances of being confronted for being a warlock are not zero, but they're not nearly as high as you make them out to be. Unless there's been a drastic shift in the last month or so, I've been away from the surface for a while.