Re: Summon Adjustments
Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2024 10:31 am
EDIT
if you don’t have anything nice to say, then don’t say it.
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EDIT
if you don’t have anything nice to say, then don’t say it.
MartialHag wrote:This is my low Level experience though, depending on how little the ACs of Summons continue to go up with the Tiers this might change in the 15-20 bracket.
Your experience is valid, if irregular, and actually supports some of the previous arguments.
You spent a feat to mprove the early game experience, which many would consider wasted due to being superfluous late game.
You took shadowmage, which grants a native +2 to your chosen spam.
Evocation scores are somewhat irrelevant here, when the school you spam to flux is enchantment. (Later in game you could flux a saveless IGMS.)
Enchantment is oddly powerful, when it works. So, can a sub-par summons eventually defeat held/stunned/dazed enemies...sure, eventually.
Right now, late game elemental streams...the normative summoning streams for which you won't end up in a Cordorian cell...are getting shredded by mid-level content.
Given the weakened summons and further reduced buffing options, the new meta is spell and healing spam, as accurately described by those you answer.
The question is on the table whether this is good/fun/needed.
Something I heard, which I think bears mentioning is people want to solo dungeons because they get mechanically punished for running with a group. Why would you go with three or four others and third or quarter your profit if you can do it solo with only a little more effort?
The group XP bonus doesn't really matter with writs and how fast levelling is anyway.
It's not a great choice honestly. But one I'll roll with.
Never a fan of summons, great update thanks!
I'd really love to be able to play a necro-summoner cleric, so I can play Diablo 2 in NWN.
Please tailor the entire server balance and class mechanics to my desires, thanks.
Unread post by Jencent » 18 Mar 2024 13:38
Chloe123 wrote: ↑18 Mar 2024 11:43
Never a fan of summons, great update thanks!Some classes cant be played without summons. So... That nerf just banned my wiz from the game.
Well it may of slowed your wizard down abit but it's hardly stopped it being viable, Use Air for the AC have it guard you spam cantrips until you trigger a free spell and use a death spells on the mobs, it's pretty much how I played my necromancer and that was pre guard for summons, once I got PC it became a joke with zero effort required.
Im currently playing an Elementalist and have had no trouble leveling up to 15 in a week with very little risk due to the guard change for summons.
I would say a good change would be to allow all spells to proc a chance at free spells percentage based off level, for wiz and sorc.
But the summon change while inconvenient isn't all that bad just makes you use different spells other than mass haste.
If we're talking about other possibilities then i'll add that i'd absolutely love to not have to use summons on my wizard. Hell, i made them a martial transmutation specialist for that very reason (not liking summons and wanting to rely on them the least) - so if that is the goal here? I'm absolutely, all for it.
i always hated summons and found it egregious that my
mage with ability to alter reality to their whim, uses that awesome power to-
Summon a being more capable than him at fighting.
It's just that, even with all my attempts, i just found a summonless wizard to... Always be lacking in one or two crucial areas, to the point where it was extremely expensive to do even mid-level (pre-epic still) content solo, as a lvl 30 character.
But if the ultimate goal is to make it different, so i actually -don't- need to rely on a summon as a wizard? Hell, i'd absolutely love it.
@edit
And before anyone tries to poke at me, yes, this is more hopeful talk. Pushing current numbers aside and just mentioning what i'd love to be a reality on Arelith.
And yes, i am making ideas for tools that may aid in that. I can't add them as i'm not a dev, but i can pass my ideas along to someone, in hopes that maybe something is taken from it.
chris a gogo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 4:03 pmIm currently playing an Elementalist and have had no trouble leveling up to 15 in a week with very little risk due to the guard change for summons.
Oh, your playing the class that gets powerful (AoE) spells basically infinitely? No wonder your not having any issues.
Basically up there with "I'm playing a necromancer and not having any issues" If not worse.
Naghast wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 5:36 pmIf we're talking about other possibilities then i'll add that i'd absolutely love to not have to use summons on my wizard. Hell, i made them a martial transmutation specialist for that very reason (not liking summons and wanting to rely on them the least) - so if that is the goal here? I'm absolutely, all for it.
i always hated summons and found it egregious that my
mage with ability to alter reality to their whim, uses that awesome power to-
Summon a being more capable than him at fighting.It's just that, even with all my attempts, i just found a summonless wizard to... Always be lacking in one or two crucial areas, to the point where it was extremely expensive to do even mid-level (pre-epic still) content solo, as a lvl 30 character.
But if the ultimate goal is to make it different, so i actually -don't- need to rely on a summon as a wizard? Hell, i'd absolutely love it.
@edit
And before anyone tries to poke at me, yes, this is more hopeful talk. Pushing current numbers aside and just mentioning what i'd love to be a reality on Arelith.And yes, i am making ideas for tools that may aid in that. I can't add them as i'm not a dev, but i can pass my ideas along to someone, in hopes that maybe something is taken from it.
TBH i do love summoner gameplay. Especially on my necromancers. And dont wonna to see how its goes away to worthless stage. In PVP almost 99% of summons can be counterd by WoF scroll. So dont take it away from me even in PVE.
Jencent wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2024 11:27 amNaghast wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 5:36 pmIf we're talking about other possibilities then i'll add that i'd absolutely love to not have to use summons on my wizard. Hell, i made them a martial transmutation specialist for that very reason (not liking summons and wanting to rely on them the least) - so if that is the goal here? I'm absolutely, all for it.
i always hated summons and found it egregious that my
mage with ability to alter reality to their whim, uses that awesome power to-
Summon a being more capable than him at fighting.It's just that, even with all my attempts, i just found a summonless wizard to... Always be lacking in one or two crucial areas, to the point where it was extremely expensive to do even mid-level (pre-epic still) content solo, as a lvl 30 character.
But if the ultimate goal is to make it different, so i actually -don't- need to rely on a summon as a wizard? Hell, i'd absolutely love it.
@edit
And before anyone tries to poke at me, yes, this is more hopeful talk. Pushing current numbers aside and just mentioning what i'd love to be a reality on Arelith.And yes, i am making ideas for tools that may aid in that. I can't add them as i'm not a dev, but i can pass my ideas along to someone, in hopes that maybe something is taken from it.
TBH i do love summoner gameplay. Especially on my necromancers. And dont wonna to see how its goes away to worthless stage. In PVP almost 99% of summons can be counterd by WoF scroll. So dont take it away from me even in PVE.
Fair enough. Ideally i suppose there would be options for both. But for now, i just really wanna see the end goal.
Re: Summon Adjustments
Post by Kalthariam » 19 Mar 2024 01:57chris a gogo wrote: ↑18 Mar 2024 16:03
Im currently playing an Elementalist and have had no trouble leveling up to 15 in a week with very little risk due to the guard change for summons.Oh, your playing the class that gets powerful (AoE) spells basically infinitely? No wonder your not having any issues.
Basically up there with "I'm playing a necromancer and not having any issues" If not worse.
Yeah wizards can get infinite spells right from the start, they also get free casting of there most powerful spells every 5-10 rounds.
I mean you can hate the change but really all it means is the mage has to do more of the damage themselves or it takes longer.
Vote with your feet, fellas. Unironically.
Yeah, don't discuss things, just abandon everything because of a super frustrating change that effects only some classes more than others.
If you don't like something, just simply abandon everything in protest.
What a weak cop-out response.
Kalthariam wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2024 10:46 pmYeah, don't discuss things, just abandon everything because of a super frustrating change that effects only some classes more than others.
If you don't like something, just simply abandon everything in protest.
What a weak cop-out response.
No, I think they were telling us to use our feet literally. We need to start kicking things!
Welp. Im not sure about nerfing abomination.
Now abom are trash in any high-mid low-high++ dungeons, because he have VERY low AC and now DR, coz in that dungeons all mobs will penetrate +4/15. So this is a trash sommon now?
Next in the line banshee or beest?
i'm reeeeeally curious about golem performance after the most recent adjustments.
since normally they were kinda. squishy, and incredibly weak. also golems dropping parts and heart mean you don't lose them permanently when they die, it seems? which is a good change imo as well. the part about them being weak, costly to make, and costly to lose because when they died they were completely gone, were three big deterrants from, well. using them.
will still need to get the golems to see their performance of course.
Kalthariam wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2024 10:46 pmYeah, don't discuss things, just abandon everything because of a super frustrating change that effects only some classes more than others.
If you don't like something, just simply abandon everything in protest.
What a weak cop-out response.
Conduit is still good what are you talking about.
Chloe123 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2024 6:23 amKalthariam wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2024 10:46 pmYeah, don't discuss things, just abandon everything because of a super frustrating change that effects only some classes more than others.
If you don't like something, just simply abandon everything in protest.
What a weak cop-out response.
Conduit is still good what are you talking about.
Dont worry. They wil be nerfed too.
But plantshape will be never touched.
Summons made me both contribute slightly more to a dungen run than prebuff and then ineffective cantrip spamming and occationally complete content you apperently can also solo with a (future) 25/5 fighter/wm or so I am told.
If the superficial issue of 'but they spent healkits to do that' then just make my summon eat like 300 gold a day and oop its equal.
idk caster experience is sad if you dont inficast, flux helped but my god its rare. I love fluxing into a save or every mob in the area turnin around and instantly deleting me. Summons guarding did help that too though.
'Evil' summons seem fine tho but not much experience.
3 feats (sf, gsf, esf: conju) and esf: conduit into a useable late game experience isn't super bad really. Some classes innately have a harder time to do any content by themselves but since that isn't universal I dont see why casters shouldn't get some mid game content.
98lbs of sad carryweight wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 10:42 amSummons made me both contribute slightly more to a dungen run than prebuff and then ineffective cantrip spamming and occationally complete content you apperently can also solo with a (future) 25/5 fighter/wm or so I am told.
If the superficial issue of 'but they spent healkits to do that' then just make my summon eat like 300 gold a day and oop its equal.idk caster experience is sad if you dont inficast, flux helped but my god its rare. I love fluxing into a save or every mob in the area turnin around and instantly deleting me. Summons guarding did help that too though.
'Evil' summons seem fine tho but not much experience.3 feats (sf, gsf, esf: conju) and esf: conduit into a useable late game experience isn't super bad really. Some classes innately have a harder time to do any content by themselves but since that isn't universal I dont see why casters shouldn't get some mid game content.
Atm abomination become some kinda a joke. +4/15 with 30~ AC at high lvl? A lot of mobs just deleting him in a few encounters.
This is with SF/GSF/ESF+EMD. Atm only ghost and wraith are usable. Because they have +/- fne AC. 53 after buffs. Also have same +/- regen and wraith have vamp.regen.
Maybe beast is usable too, if you are GUARD your pet for some mediocre damage. ATM i starting to thing PM become even bigger joke than before. In PvP your summons will be WoF, in PvE at high-mid+++ location your undeads will be killed without shit tons of healing and other stuff.
At this time my PURE mundane PC in AFK mode farming epic dungs without ANY consumables. No need to repair, no needs in healing. All wards from bottle, which i have 100+++ each.
Jencent wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 11:29 am98lbs of sad carryweight wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 10:42 amSummons made me both contribute slightly more to a dungen run than prebuff and then ineffective cantrip spamming and occationally complete content you apperently can also solo with a (future) 25/5 fighter/wm or so I am told.
If the superficial issue of 'but they spent healkits to do that' then just make my summon eat like 300 gold a day and oop its equal.idk caster experience is sad if you dont inficast, flux helped but my god its rare. I love fluxing into a save or every mob in the area turnin around and instantly deleting me. Summons guarding did help that too though.
'Evil' summons seem fine tho but not much experience.3 feats (sf, gsf, esf: conju) and esf: conduit into a useable late game experience isn't super bad really. Some classes innately have a harder time to do any content by themselves but since that isn't universal I dont see why casters shouldn't get some mid game content.
Atm abomination become some kinda a joke. +4/15 with 30~ AC at high lvl? A lot of mobs just deleting him in a few encounters.
This is with SF/GSF/ESF+EMD. Atm only ghost and wraith are usable. Because they have +/- fne AC. 53 after buffs. Also have same +/- regen and wraith have vamp.regen.
Maybe beast is usable too, if you are GUARD your pet for some mediocre damage. ATM i starting to thing PM become even bigger joke than before. In PvP your summons will be WoF, in PvE at high-mid+++ location your undeads will be killed without shit tons of healing and other stuff.
At this time my PURE mundane PC in AFK mode farming epic dungs without ANY consumables. No need to repair, no needs in healing. All wards from bottle, which i have 100+++ each.
i stand corrected, thank you
Jencent wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 11:29 am98lbs of sad carryweight wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 10:42 amSummons made me both contribute slightly more to a dungen run than prebuff and then ineffective cantrip spamming and occationally complete content you apperently can also solo with a (future) 25/5 fighter/wm or so I am told.
If the superficial issue of 'but they spent healkits to do that' then just make my summon eat like 300 gold a day and oop its equal.idk caster experience is sad if you dont inficast, flux helped but my god its rare. I love fluxing into a save or every mob in the area turnin around and instantly deleting me. Summons guarding did help that too though.
'Evil' summons seem fine tho but not much experience.3 feats (sf, gsf, esf: conju) and esf: conduit into a useable late game experience isn't super bad really. Some classes innately have a harder time to do any content by themselves but since that isn't universal I dont see why casters shouldn't get some mid game content.
Atm abomination become some kinda a joke. +4/15 with 30~ AC at high lvl? A lot of mobs just deleting him in a few encounters.
This is with SF/GSF/ESF+EMD. Atm only ghost and wraith are usable. Because they have +/- fne AC. 53 after buffs. Also have same +/- regen and wraith have vamp.regen.
Maybe beast is usable too, if you are GUARD your pet for some mediocre damage. ATM i starting to thing PM become even bigger joke than before. In PvP your summons will be WoF, in PvE at high-mid+++ location your undeads will be killed without shit tons of healing and other stuff.
At this time my PURE mundane PC in AFK mode farming epic dungs without ANY consumables. No need to repair, no needs in healing. All wards from bottle, which i have 100+++ each.
If your pure mundane can solo epic dungeon without consumables, so can your summoner caster, even after the nerf. Also pure mundane can only solo the very easiest ones like viper monastery, try anything harder will be a struggle. In comparison, casters can solo very hard dungeons before the nerf.