Summon Adjustments

[Vangrant1]

I've been reading a lot of this posts and I still don't get what is the real reason of, not literally but almost, destroying summoning for clearing PvE content as it is? Is it incentivizing group playing? Making pve harder? Creating a more difficult experience to halve levelling characters at level 30 too easily? Because if this is the attempt...

Then this update is useless and I will tell you why, two classes: Defiler, and Spellsword, The first is known to have a high refund for harm, and able to cast it several times in middle of a dungeon, because of most of the pve content has no negative energy protection, and for those who are NEP protected, it is undead, and mass heal is saying hi, hello, good morning, harming becomes any pve content clearing a piece of cake and a half, yes, summons OP? I doubt they even need one and it only helps them do the things faster.

Number two, is the usual suspect, Spellsword. This recking machine has been on the top of the pve wave for a few months and it's...just too good, able to create instant attacks that deal high amounts of damage, access to the proper wizard spellbook, which a bit more difficulty but that really does not affect them, and being able to summon still creatures with a sequencer just because why not.

Now the route would be AGAIN nerfing more classes, for AGAIN making everything harder? No. I think the classes that has been hit so much with this update (Wizard, Sorcerer, Druid, or Shaman), they need something else, of course I am not the brightest mind of all times and I have no magical wand that would say: "TADDA FIXED", so I have no idea of what could be a good incentivizing for those classes to actually feel relevant in clearing pve content regarding other classes that could do way better, that's something the devs can figure out, and way better than I can.

In pvp, however, I am here standing and giving an applause, yes, this was needed, the pressure capable that gate were able to do it was unbalanced, and before the WoF tribe comes saying: "BUT WOF WOULD SEND THEM TO THE ABYSS", I must remind, that the summons from gate do have SR, and most important either, they are scrollable, so using these summons were an usual practice in pvp, so even if your fellow WoF average user cast it and they are lucky enough to remove the Deva/Devil/Demon, get ready for a second, or a third, or maybe a fourth depending of builds, circunstances, etcetera, and pray the RNG gods you are not failing the SR check, cause those summons could still give you a bad time, even in the shortage of time WoF is deployed a second time.

Now, I am getting tired of reading my own post (Paraphrasing Gale here), and I'm bringing up a conclussion of this post, this is a good approach, but it has created a larger gap between classes in pve content in terms of adaptability, entertainment and usefulness in a party, or in solo, because, seriously, it is not a meme that sorcerers are basically mass haste bots in any party composition, even at level 30.

Good morning, good evening and good night, and I hope the team still kicks up with good content as they usually do.

He is right, I feel like the DM team is taking wrong approaches when concerns this matter, and then someone finally had to speak about the wolf among sheep's.

Concerning summons, they aren't Op but that it's my opinion as casual, but I played as conjurer RP like 3 years, and it seems the people that have the problem with them it's about leveling solo until 30, but then what? You want to do late game dungeons you end up in groups.
Summons aren't reliable always, most time they need constant attention, I feel like this was an disconnection by the DM team again over the community.

And this update one less reason to conjuraction focus.

[Kythana]

I feel really bad for a new player coming in, trying out a summoner class, and just having their now very weak summon get destroyed.

They went from very strong, to borderline useless tissue paper. They just get absolutely shredded in pve, especially in the overtuned content that was designed with summons in mind.

Gotta say too, this whole approach of heads in the sand for 2 and a half months is a really bad look overall for the team too. Makes it look like you can't defend your justification at all, and you just want everyone to accept crappy changes.

[The GrumpyCat]

He is right, I feel like the DM team is taking wrong approaches when concerns this matter, and then someone finally had to speak about the wolf among sheep's.

Uh, small point of clarity. This change had nothing to do with the DM team. The DM team (for the most part?) has little or nothing to do with balence issues. Anyone who wants to put balence issues entirely in /my/ hands is a fool or a madman. This is all the Dev/Irongron.

I've no strong feelings about this change personally, but a lot of people do and I'd rather myself and the other Dms not get any flack for this. Thanks. (I mean I'd rather no one got any flack for this, if I'm being honest, but especially not those who had little to nothing to do with it)

[A Digital Vagrant]

I feel really bad for a new player coming in, trying out a summoner class, and just having their now very weak summon get destroyed.

They went from very strong, to borderline useless tissue paper. They just get absolutely shredded in pve, especially in the overtuned content that was designed with summons in mind.

Gotta say too, this whole approach of heads in the sand for 2 and a half months is a really bad look overall for the team too. Makes it look like you can't defend your justification at all, and you just want everyone to accept crappy changes.

... So how about that three hundred concurrent playerbase guys?

Pardon the snark, I know most changes come through an initial backlash period - but folks have given a lot of decent feedback in this thread so far amongst the anger, that wizards etc should have had some buffs before their summon capacity got relatively nerfed AND mass-spells no longer applicable for them to bolster their summons. Also, yeah... ten week avoidance period made me kinda go 'oof', despite knowing it's likely to help developers avoid the most vitriol, it's an awful public relations thing imo.

I admit I miss the days of just being able to cast spells on my summons to buff them - which in turn gives your character choices as to whether to risk dedicating their spells to summon-support and backline or otherwise - rather than this sequencer stuff, let alone consequent debuffs.

Just let people have fun, and balance without punching down at the flimsiest classes.

[Vangrant1]

He is right, I feel like the DM team is taking wrong approaches when concerns this matter, and then someone finally had to speak about the wolf among sheep's.

Uh, small point of clarity. This change had nothing to do with the DM team. The DM team (for the most part?) has little or nothing to do with balence issues. Anyone who wants to put balence issues entirely in /my/ hands is a fool or a madman. This is all the Dev/Irongron.

I've no strong feelings about this change personally, but a lot of people do and I'd rather myself and the other Dms not get any flack for this. Thanks. (I mean I'd rather no one got any flack for this, if I'm being honest, but especially not those who had little to nothing to do with it)

One person does the balance of the game, I confess had no clue, at same time it's odd, but being Arelith I understand. I don't understand why I would be madman, when obvious it's just misconception of mine.

[Iceborn]

I seem to hear some people saying that they'd rather just cast spells directly on their summons.
I know that I'd rather not have to reserve half my spellbook for that.

Do you remember the druid experience of having to repeat the buffing process 4 times on the elemental swarm?
And then crash, and log back to realize you have to do it all over again.

I like sequencers. I think the idea of the sequencer is great to avoid the (extra) buffing nonsense.
Pop a summon. Pop a sequencer of choice (which admittedly, the current choices aren't exactly great). You are done.

Could be great if you could make your own sequencers - choose any 4 spells, keep different variants for different situations. More preparation, same level of customization to make people gush over different combinations.

[Vangrant1]

Sequences aren't that bad, and I understand why people prefer the previous way, but having an spellbook free of summon support spells are even better.

The concept of an sequencer being enchanted with the spells we want it's an excellent idea as previous mentioned, perhaps it should be considered

[Cai]

"The reason I wanted to post this though, is that there was a real outcry last time, and what I considered to be quite a visceral reaction, as there often is in such situations... To this end I've advised staff members not to engage with feedback on this topic until an appropriate transition period has passed, maybe 10 weeks?"

Total weaksauce.

I was of the opinion that summons were a bit too powerful, but I really dislike this change as a solution. Well, you say in your post that "The above changes aren't intended as a solution" and that you considered going "way, way further" which I'm having difficulty understanding. I'm curious what the near-vanilla state you had in mind was, as the current state is markedly worse than vanilla summons. In vanilla you can obviously cast spells on the summons to increase their effectiveness, while due to the sequencer update that aspect of gameplay has been removed in favor of a consumable.

I look forward to future updates and hearing from you in 70 days or so!

Lol.

[AnselHoenheim]

I seem to hear some people saying that they'd rather just cast spells directly on their summons.
I know that I'd rather not have to reserve half my spellbook for that.

Do you remember the druid experience of having to repeat the buffing process 4 times on the elemental swarm?
And then crash, and log back to realize you have to do it all over again.

I like sequencers. I think the idea of the sequencer is great to avoid the (extra) buffing nonsense.
Pop a summon. Pop a sequencer of choice (which admittedly, the current choices aren't exactly great). You are done.

Could be great if you could make your own sequencers - choose any 4 spells, keep different variants for different situations. More preparation, same level of customization to make people gush over different combinations.

If only we could have sequencers we could customize with our own spells....

[Jencent]

Welp. I glad undeads was not touched... Because after that nerf even with +1 tier of abj summons... They are trash and now mages have to protect own summons.

If undeads will be nerfed that way to... This will be the end of PMs.

Only one way to justify this - this is rework of wiz class.

[Lass is Class]

• Summons need to be reworked, including with and without Conjuration focuses.
  They were too strong before (PvE), allowed to just go drink tea after summoning GSF+ Summon and warding it with a sequencer.
  Currently everything is too weak that is not a Gate. Gate summons from Books/Scrolls should get a rescale.
  Current changes force everyone to use a sequencer or the summons would be incredibly weak to be of any use.

• Changes should be consistent.
  If summoning in general is getting nerfed, then it should be done to consistently and to everything (Gate, Planar Conduit, Warlock's summons).
  If the PvE "solo all high-end content" is getting addressed, it should become harder to the profilic PvE builds and one single feat (about it below), not specifically the stats of summons.

• Balance.
  Planar Conduit either removed from the game, or changed to be in line with other Epic Spells for Summoning.
  It does not require any summoning feats, only 15 Spellcraft, lasts infinitely and trivializes PvE still, nerfs almost did not touch it compared to Summon Elemental IX or Monolith or Elder Swarm.
  It trivializes the high-end PvE content much harsher than any of the summons of non-epic caliber that were nerfed.

• Gameplay.
  There should be a decision at how summons are viewed, and what it means being a summoner. If summoner as a standalone class that relies most of its prowess to a summon (at least in PvE) is no longer viewed as such, it should be stated as such, and ESF: Conjuration not being a bait for others to take, especially Druids, Shamans, Favoured Souls and Clerics.

[Yuzam]

I think the biggest issue of this game is, that it's missing anything, which would motivate players to conquer the endgame content. Best items are from craft and the rune components dropping from EPIC chests are very weak motivation. Specially when the same can drop from easy epic dung and also from a tough one.

Trying to balance the classes PVE power is okay, but why balancing if summons surrounded classes can solo more content or less, when there is no real point in defeating the hardest dungeons anyways.

[Amateur Hour]

I think the biggest issue of this game is, that it's missing anything, which would motivate players to conquer the endgame content. Best items are from craft and the rune components dropping from EPIC chests are very weak motivation. Specially when the same can drop from easy epic dung and also from a tough one.

Trying to balance the classes PVE power is okay, but why balancing if summons surrounded classes can solo more content or less, when there is no real point in defeating the hardest dungeons anyways.

Those runic components will become a lot more important once the dweomercraft update goes into live. Your average character is probably going to require at least 7 masterwork runes to fully-gear.

The issue with endgame equipment being primarily looted from dungeons is that BiS stuff varies so tremendously based on build. I could go on a dungeon run with a goodly crew of, say, a sword-using fighter/wm, a dual-wielding rogue, a wizard, and a healer cleric, but if we find a two-handed concussive weapon at the end intended for EEEEEEVIL, it doesn't exactly do us much good, does it? It feels like a complete waste of time; even a T1 runic item is still something.

I feel like having the materials needed to make the Ultra Super Cool stuff (which is effectively where we are at!) is always going to be the best compromise with the end-game content, since materials are far more versatile.

[Naghast]

I'd really like to know what the intended power level / capabilities of summoner classes is

And i'd really, really like to get a precise answer from dev team about it.

[eggplantdrow]

could work for blizzard with balancing like this

[Martin Colt]

I waited to respond as my gut reaction to this, as someone who oft has played druids, sorcerers, wizards, and non-defiler clerics, was 'The Big Oof'. Not everyone in the player base is someone who has the time to log on for 3-6 hours a day, to spend 1-2 hours perhaps looking for a party to help them with writs, or go do a dungeon, sometimes players only have an hour or two to get in, do some writs and hopefully have some fun. In my opinion this change will hurt new players just starting the game the most. I have seen so often dead bodies of player characters by the priest in Skal, their names never to be seen again and have often wondered if they were new players getting into the game, who went into the rat infested store house only to get torn apart by rats and say, "Welp, this stinks, guess I'll paly something else." who knows what kind fun and interesting stories these players might have told, who knows what kinds of friends they might have made in and out of the game, but now, see ya, guess they'll go play something else.

Here is what I see happening, we will see a lot less of Wizards, Sorcerers, and other classes that have because of their limiting spell casting and enemies bloated HP, AC, and Saves. We will see even more of the already stacked and able to solo Spell Sword, Warlocks and similar PVP/PVE machines. For those that do play the aforementioned casting classes the new meta will be, 'Rush to level 21 and take conduit" until it sounds like that too will get a nerf. I ran a low level sorcerer last night, same build as I've done before just to test this out, and watching the summoned wolf get nuked by the first mob in a level five writ was disheartening. What's the solution? I guess every summoner player will be a herbalist and have to stack druidic sequencers and a back pack full of healing kits and just spam them on their summon or ask their buddies to make a throw-away meat shield fighter to help them level until they have at least a half way decent summon to work lower level dungeons rather than mid to high level ones until, as I stated, they get conduit. As someone who has played the table top of D&D and similar for years, summons for casters are an integral part of the caster experience to put bodies in front of you while you throw some spells at the enemy and protect your preciously low HP.

This change feels like nothing more than, 'I as the server owner don't like the way people are playing the game so I'm changing it' which to be fair, is your choice. At the end of the day we are playing a game in someone else's world and as with this change, they can change that world at their whim and then can choose to ignore any feedback about it, visceral or otherwise for a time of their choosing. To me, that part is what hurts most, the 'I'm going to ignore and not engage with feedback for ten or so weeks' it just feels disconnected from your player base. If the goal of this was to increase role play, I believe you have failed in doing so, rather than quote 'grinding in silence with summons' you will have people grinding in silence' with a buddy or two and as stated above you will see less of certain classes. Other have said it too, but there are plenty of classes that can still solo content [See spell sword, Warlock, etc...]

So that's my two copper.

TLDR:

1. This change is a big Oof
2. We will see less casting classes
3. This hurts new players coming into the game
4. New meta rush to level 21 take conduit [Until it sounds like it too is nerfed]
5. Plenty of classes can still solo, so this just hurts casting classes that relied on summons to survive
6. The rise of the throwaway meat shield

Cheers,

Martin

[silverpheonix]

I can't help this is trying to address power creep without nerfing the classes mostly responsible for power creep. Squishy meatsacks need strong summons because the dungeons are designed with god-like PCs in mind that can tank massive hits or dish out 100-200 damage a round in mind. If summons aren't sustainable in a lengthy dungeon, then multiple castings are needed, the wizard needs to rest at some point, not get ambushed, reapply all their buffs, resummon, etc. And god help you if you bring summons into the Formians. But that's my initial reaction without having read in detail this thread.

I have my pixie familiar carry me through the Duergar Library because the giant golems are immune to the bludgeoning damage from my summons and the wights die way too quickly even with runic sequencers. So the pixie is the only thing that can damage them. 3 points at a time.

This is a real kick in the pants to Trans Spec wizards, too. Something really needs to be addressed there because that Specialization is being whittled away. It has lost spells (curses), it's got an underwhelming 9th level summon even at peak, Tenser's is a incredibly niche and rarely relevant signature spell, and now one of the significant boons of the class - excellent mass zoo and being able to sustain Mass Haste, is only really relevant to assist martial PCs now.

[Salasker]

I have to ask 'Why'?

The stated reason, that it makes PvE content too easy, doesn't really make sense - as many others have stated. Other classes have long been able to solo everything for years. Unless the devs make monsters that are literally unfair/impossible, this will always be the case. I'm in awe at the time people put in to squeeze every advantage out of every class, especially here on Arellith with all of the unique content made over the years. So a weaker class, both in the current state of Arelith as well as throughout most fictional representations, using a Summoned ally to do the same thing (solo content) should not be an issue. Especially since the Sequencer update already nerfed the Summons pretty badly.

If it's to try to make people group up (which is preferable, all things being equal), I again ask 'Why'? Not 'Why try to get people to group up?' but 'Why make summons weaker?' A Summon in a group is superfluous, and most of the time other than saving your group coin by replacing consumables with your spells, you're pretty superfluous, too. I've rarely been able to get one spell off in a group before my allies have decimated everything. So you're there mostly to buff, use healkits, occasionally haste... And hope you don't have to rest too often to renew those spells and annoy everyone by asking to do so.

If it's to keep people from leveling too quickly... then again, it won't work. It will just mean that the classes that do rely on Summons to survive just won't be played. The ones that can still sail through PvE enemies will, and level just as quickly as before. If it's to keep people from using low-level Scroll Summons on non-casters to do so... then I suggest that fixing that particular problem would be a better update than wrecking a swath of classes that rely on Summons.

If it's to keep people from farming gold/items/chests... again, the other classes can do that without Summons, so again you'll just see less of the classes that this update harms.

I've seen people say that a Summon should be a tool, not something to rely on, but I can't agree. Especially if you're trying to do anything alone. While partying with a group is the preferred way to do things, and is what Arelith was designed for, it just doesn't always happen. People playing in off times, in out-of-the-way areas, who won't/can't for RP reasons, people who just have an hour or so and want to dungeon delve, or any number of reasons that you may find you're adventuring alone. Doing so without a Summon for those classes that need them is either an exercise in extreme patience or quick trip to the fugue plane... and often both.

Honestly, this smacks of a solution in search of a problem, just as the Sequencer update was. Other classes do PvE better than any Summon reliant class does, even before Sequencers made it harder. Leveling too quickly has been a problem for years, but it has nothing to do with Summons, the same as farming for runes/gold/whatever. Unless the intent is to make people play these classes less, then I cannot understand it.

I'll end with this, as I think it's the most important point. I love the world of Arelith, exploring and finding new things, seeing what's been added when I thought I'd seen it all a loooong time ago.
BUT.
I don't play a 20+ year old game for ANY 'PvE' content. If I was looking for that, there's Balder's Gate 3. Or WH40K Rogue Trader. Or XCom with the Long War mod. Or Skyrim, Fallout, Far Cry, Mass Effect, Dragon Age... you get the point.

It's not what got me hooked on Arelith, and it is CERTAINLY not why I keep coming back after all these years.

[Griefmaker]

I've been saying for ****ing years that summons should be very tanky and very slow to kill things, this way they can help a mage survive in pve, without being a full replacement to an actual character in the party.

Its really not that hard to do that, you just give the summons more resistances and lower their damage.

As one who has traditionally played wizards in the past, I agree with this.

Additionally, small little "things" to help summons keep or regain aggro in PvE. Probably one of the best ways is for something like elementals to have a very weak to weak AoE. It will not add up in the damage category much, but will recapture the foe's attention when a wizard actually casts a spell to do damage. I seem to remember at one point playing with the abomination on the test server and it had an acid AoE each round which did just this and was very useful.

Low sneak attack (even 1d6) also seems a good way to get the AI's attention...as all wizards who have a pixie out that decides to charge into combat knows.

The next problem is that spells in general are still not enough (for traditional casters, not infinicasters). DC spells are okayish into low epics and if you are paying attention and have the focuses can be okay a little further beyond. Damage spells are a joke though. Mobs have been tuned to account for weapon masters, spellswords, strong summons etc. and a wizard can blow through all level 9 spells to take down one pack of epic mobs...and sometimes that is not even enough. Especially since I remember when I last played some time ago that many mobs have evasion or just high reflex so you halve direct damage anyway (except missile spam, but god that is boring).

A wizard (or cloistered cleric or sorcerer) should cast one of their scarce spells which are their only resources and have it actually do something more than tickle and irritate a mob. Yes, spell slots have been increased a little bit, but so has the hp, saves, etc.

If one of those classes casts from their spellbook, triple the direct damage. One could argue they should also have increased DCs on spells (a thought I had at one point was +1DC/5 caster levels), but I do not know the specifics anymore about mob saves so could not posit a suggestion.

More potent direct damage single target spells too in the spell levels (yes, this is a suggestion for new spells in schools other than necromancy, though some of those including the blood magic are pretty cool). Not just gimmick spells either that seem cool for flavor but mechanically not really useful.

This may seem a lot at first, until you remember infinicasters can toss off spells without pause and do significantly more damage in the end of a fight. Plus, friendly fire is a big danger. Melee and AAs can do more in a single round, heck sometimes in a single flurry.

This could also help sorcerers finally stand out a bit more since their spell selection will be smaller, but they can cast more and so actually make a bigger presence.

The other balancer is that one could say "well these classes have a lot of spell slots!" which is true. They also usually have a lot of buffs, utility, dispelling, etc. so a balance of damage vs protection is in play.

Cooldowns for epic spells for these three classes too. A hellball, greater ruin, PC, elemental meteor, etc. on a 20-30 minute cooldown would not break too much. It may allow them to be used twice in a dungeon (or more for some of the REALLY long ones). But it will not affect PvP.

Speaking of epic spells, elemental meteor and PC really should have their requirements switched about so that monolithic elementals are summonable before PC. As far a power progression goes, that makes FAR more sense than what we have now and seems a big oversight.

[Mamma ama Warlock]

I don't play a 20+ year old game for ANY 'PvE' content. If I was looking for that, there's Balder's Gate 3. Or WH40K Rogue Trader. Or XCom with the Long War mod. Or Skyrim, Fallout, Far Cry, Mass Effect, Dragon Age... you get the point.

It's not what got me hooked on Arelith, and it is CERTAINLY not why I keep coming back after all these years.

Exactly this. I don’t want my Xth run through the same location to reach a remotely relevant level of power to be made longer. I want to finally reach a relevant level of power to engage with the world on a more equal footing.

[Wolfgangvondi]

Hi,
Would like to add, if the goal is to foment groups running the content instead of solo it...and the opportunity for RP... I fell this is looking at the wrong places for that. Not only there's bilds way faster and efficient tham Summons to run the pve content, like so many have pointed out, but it seens to me that the server is making a lot of decisions going in the opposite way.

Like, ( Im sure this will be very unpopular but...) Why keep adding a even more high power gap between folks that try to play "basically"/mainly for RP, and folks that basically follow the "power play" (fast lvl up, 5% gear on toons, min max bilds)? For what I did understood we just had an update to enchant itens in to even more powerful gear?
So "we" want ppl to need each other and spend more time RPing... or "we" want ppl to spend more time min/max and running Content has fast as possible to get good drops for gear?

Every one that plays whit me for some time knows im realy not the person to talk about the mechanical aspect ( I concede that at face value). But even so, seens... weird?... To in one hand try to get folks to RP more, and at the same time in the other hand keeping adding changes to make Arelith more and more like an generic MMO. Can we them condemn that ppl go on runs JUST to get stuff to improve his chars and try to keep up whit the power curve that keeps been raised up?

Let it be clear, I have no problem whit folks that besides the rP also play like that, I play whit some, and do enjoy to play whit them (and learn an thing or two). Even thought is the RP side of Arelith that really keeps me here. Just pointing out that if one keeps adding stuff that clearly takes the server more for the MMO side, its difficult to not have more and more ppl playing it like that.

Finally, theres was already several places I could not Solo whit my cleric summon, there's was others That It was actually an 50% - %50 chance.... and the places I was able to solo... (Yes, sometimes I also like to just go kill some stuff and them have the disappointment of not getting worth in terms of loot in the end : P) Anyway like I was saying, the places I can Solo whit summons, personal it takes a lot more time to do it than folks that don't have summons, but are able to make a lot better bilds and invest the time, and runs on getting there gear top noch.

Finally, I agree whit others have already said, 10 weeks fells a lot of time to start open some communication channels. But, its your server. And like I usually say, i'm an guest here.

Sorry to everyone that reads this for the half broken English, hope I was still able to pass the message I wanted to.

[For My Next Trick]

Irongron himself has often said if people don't like his changes to vote with their feet because at the end of the day threads like this really don't matter.

The inherent change of wanting to nerf summons isn't a problem if its handled correctly. If there was an overall rebalance where it was clear time was taken, other issues addressed, and it wasn't just a knee-jerk reaction based on how the dev team feels. The classes that relied on summons could have had the loss offset somehow. It could have been explained how this fits into the bigger picture with what is planned in the future. You know. Basic plan management and change management principles. But none of that happened.

I have always felt the idea of 'just vote with your feet lmao' to be extremely disrespectful. Because its basically demanding friends groups try and decide if they stay at a place they like with people they like, because some dev who by his own admission doesn't play the server the same way anyone else does, decides he wants to make things objectively worse and treat the playerbase like they are morons who somehow don't understand how these things work.

Because yes. When you change things, break them, refuse to read feedback when 99% of it is negative and say "No. Its the players who are wrong." It shows you are out of touch.

I know that this is a volunteer team. People choose to do this for fun. I also think a lot of times people catch vitriol and bad faith actors shit talking them and its not acceptable.

But Irongron. Dev team. Sometimes you've Snuggle a Bugbear it up. And doubling down and refusing to admit it wasnt done in the best way, doesn't make people trust you. Running one of the few places in town offering the experience Arelith does and saying 'If you dont like it then leave' truly just makes me wonder.

Anyway hopefully you can share your plans othet than "I made these shit because I don't like them, pray I do not make them worse."

[Nightius]

Hey i dont do forums mutch but i do like using summons.
And i feel like the fact that many npc enemies also have summons (that is some times of a higher level then the writ) and mage enemies also often spam dispels that remove summons, even epic summons, then i cant really see the need to make summoners even harder and unfair to play.

As a summoner you still need to spend tons of coin on wands and scrolls (unless you want to rest like every 5 min) to have the damage spells you need to kill stuff since some enemies are immune to some type of element damage, that is what spellcasters often use to damage stuff, then making the meat shields even weaker is just unfair.

The fact that you also have to rest to get the epic summons back (unless you are a Blackgaurd) is also like kicking someone when they are already down for the count for the 3-4th time. more nerfs on summoners isnt needed, buffs are.

[The Devil Wears a Suit and Tie]

To this end I've advised staff members not to engage with feedback on this topic until an appropriate transition period has passed, maybe 10 weeks? Players are welcome to post here of course, but outside of addressing actual bugs I won't be engaging, and have encouraged staff to avoid doing so too.

This is what being out of touch looks like.

[Anomandaris]

Arguably the most frustrating part about this change, besides the change itself, is the realization that this whole thread exists purely as catharsis for the player base. It’s not really for feedback that matters, and I think the community by and large feels that and has expressed as much. That’s quite sad and a discouraging dynamic that is not a particularly healthy approach to managing a community that breathes the very life into the server. That said, we’ll all (for the most part) keep logging in so… I guess we just have to accept the culture of how balance is managed here and have fun with whatever rolls our way!