No PvP Zones

[Algol]

As far as I know there are two places in the server that PvP is not allowed: Shadovar Trade Post and Dis. The IC reasoning for it is there are powerful NPC factions that don't want fighting fighting there but that could be extended to other settlements or zones (namely the hub in Anduor which is perhaps the zone with most PvP in the server.) OOC reasoning is to have a neutral place where opposing groups can meet with no danger of PvP, as far as I'm aware. However I think both IC and OOC approached are inconsistent to some degree.

ICly: If IC powers are preventing the conflict this should be extended to the Hub in Anduor and perhaps even rest of the settlements. Guard NPC exists in all settlements yet players treat them like they exist in very few places.

OOCly: This is true for Dis especially but since it has anything a city can offer and more, if a group based off there targets you and things become very PvPy, you have no choice but to get DMs involved (and convince them icly and oocly) if you want to strike them back on their own turf. Which can be rather frustrating in my opinion.

[Peacelily]

In both of those cases, the neutral areas are enforced by literal greater powers; by the infinite legions of the Hells, and the potent magics of the Shadovar. In neither case are they at all related to PC action; if they were threatened, they could very easily shrug and stop any access to their home, which would suck - devils deciding Primers aren't worth their time and stopping them coming to the Hells, or the Shadovar abandoning their trading post.

Neutrality is there as the alternative is simply those areas stopping existing.

The Hub, and cities in general, are the centers for homes. The Hubmaster can't really just shut the place down without losing everything, and he can't just move.

Would I like to see a lot stronger enforcement of the wiki rule? Yes.

Shadovar, Dis, Andunor Hub and Skaljard
Shadovar and Dis have expectations of character neutrality. This isn’t mechanically enforced. However, if your character is disruptive in these areas there may be special in game consequences for it. You should be scared of them. It won’t be fair. This includes picking pockets as well, not just combat.

The Hub is a special area. It’s the only prime social location in the Underdark with all of the vendors. It’s full of lower level characters. In the setting, it represents a sort of neutral area where the Hubmaster welcomes characters from all over to come and do trading. That isn’t to say surfacers should feel welcome, but this particular area should be treated with care and special consideration before you attack someone or cause a scene. We look much more closely at situations involving the Hub than we do other settlements.

Skaljard is designed as a low level experience and is level capped to 19. If you’re at level nineteen and you wish to progress further, you will need to make plans to leave. You may remain on Skal at a maximum level of 19, no exceptions.
Characters are otherwise allowed to fight and roleplay without concern for the NPCs in OTHER areas. In short, we don’t want to prevent conflict roleplay from happening just because there are NPC guards. However, we like to see it when players acknowledge them and work around the world as if the guards in settlements are real and will stop you. It isn’t required. This is an RPB consideration. Blatantly ignoring, killing or disrespecting them might also lead to a Mark of Despair or Dauntlessness.

Especially considering the Hub deals with all three major districts and their envoys, if one side is starting trouble on a regular basis, the envoy from that district may decide the troublemakers simply aren't worth it and deal with them personally. Freth exiling a drow house from the Table for repeated infringement, for example, that made them have to explain themselves to the Hubmaster, should have a lot of consequences.

In Cordor, you can be exiled. In Andunor, you can't be exiled from the city. I think that's deliberate - a drow exiled from Andunor has nowhere to go.

[Shadowy Reality]

Any zone that has a few NPC guards should never be PvPed in except in very particular instances, as you are automatically ignoring NPCs if you do.

The Hubmaster does not want disruptions to the Hub as that means a disruption of commerce and a dent in his activities. There are Peacekeepers all around the Hub, they would react should you start to make things explode.

I would also like to see a much heavier hand in enforcing this. You start a brawn in the Cordor square (you are still ignoring all the NPC guards) but you will be exiled. No such thing can happen in the Hub so the only way is to heavily discourage players from doing so.

[Hazard]

Despite multiple DM rulings, staff statements, arelith wiki articles and written server rules, the hub is the most commonly PvP'd in area by far IMO, and the most policed by groups that establish themselves as an authority on who is and isn't allowed based off of crap they make up on the spot.

It isn't uncommon to have problematic players just standing around fully warded in the hub, guarding the portal, to gatekeep Andunor from individuals they've decided are "enemies to the underdark", despite that often not being true and more of a self fulfilling prophecy.

I'm not in favor of no PvP zones, but I am in favor of more strict rules around PvP in general especially in regards to Guard NPCs and areas such as the hub, or any other heavily guarded area.

Just to put it out there, while Shadovar is strictly neutral ground, Dis does actually allow limited PvP. The laws of Dis state you aren't allowed to use it as a long-term safe haven and so you could petition their courts to help you out if someone is abusing their security in such a way. Also, the laws state that assassinations are allowed when done through the guild. I don't think you can 'help' the assassin, but that's still pretty significant and much more interesting than rocking up with your boys, warded, and hostiling.

When I see someone get bodied in LoS of multiple NPC guards in the middle of Cordor or Myon or something, I can't help but feel like the rules of respecting NPCs aren't being followed. In a perfect world we'd have DMs all over the place ready to control those NPCs and dish out awesome, immersive, IC consequences through RP ... but we can't do that for various reasons, and so just having stricter rules might be for the best.

How can we come up with these rules though? What areas are and aren't protected? Is it as simple as, if a guard NPC sees you, then don't murder? Maybe some script that will make guards hostile the attacker if they aren't a citizen? I don't know. Then, what if both are citizens or neither are? I have no idea.

All I do know is, there needs to be some change or something done, because it sucks to see and it only seems to be getting worse instead of better. The only reprieve seems to be when those problematic players get banned/bored and move on, but in the case of getting bored it only means they'll be back, whether in that area or another, once them and their buddies are leveled and geared.

I think enforcing the 'circles you play in' rule more strictly would go a long way to solving much of the PvP problems. Far too many players seem to be playing with the same circles of friends, who just happen to make complimentary PvP-orientated builds, and have unbreakable bonds of loyalty to one another, sometimes even going as far as being friends before they arrive to the isle, or immediately upon arriving.

Metagaming is against the rules, and while it's difficult to enforce I don't think it means we should just not enforce it at all.

[perseid]

Despite multiple DM rulings, staff statements, arelith wiki articles and written server rules, the hub is the most commonly PvP'd in area by far IMO, and the most policed by groups that establish themselves as an authority on who is and isn't allowed based off of crap they make up on the spot.

It isn't uncommon to have problematic players just standing around fully warded in the hub, guarding the portal, to gatekeep Andunor from individuals they've decided are "enemies to the underdark", despite that often not being true and more of a self fulfilling prophecy.

I'm not in favor of no PvP zones, but I am in favor of more strict rules around PvP in general especially in regards to Guard NPCs and areas such as the hub, or any other heavily guarded area.

Just to put it out there, while Shadovar is strictly neutral ground, Dis does actually allow limited PvP. The laws of Dis state you aren't allowed to use it as a long-term safe haven and so you could petition their courts to help you out if someone is abusing their security in such a way. Also, the laws state that assassinations are allowed when done through the guild. I don't think you can 'help' the assassin, but that's still pretty significant and much more interesting than rocking up with your boys, warded, and hostiling.

When I see someone get bodied in LoS of multiple NPC guards in the middle of Cordor or Myon or something, I can't help but feel like the rules of respecting NPCs aren't being followed. In a perfect world we'd have DMs all over the place ready to control those NPCs and dish out awesome, immersive, IC consequences through RP ... but we can't do that for various reasons, and so just having stricter rules might be for the best.

How can we come up with these rules though? What areas are and aren't protected? Is it as simple as, if a guard NPC sees you, then don't murder? Maybe some script that will make guards hostile the attacker if they aren't a citizen? I don't know. Then, what if both are citizens or neither are? I have no idea.

All I do know is, there needs to be some change or something done, because it sucks to see and it only seems to be getting worse instead of better. The only reprieve seems to be when those problematic players get banned/bored and move on, but in the case of getting bored it only means they'll be back, whether in that area or another, once them and their buddies are leveled and geared.

I think enforcing the 'circles you play in' rule more strictly would go a long way to solving much of the PvP problems. Far too many players seem to be playing with the same circles of friends, who just happen to make complimentary PvP-orientated builds, and have unbreakable bonds of loyalty to one another, sometimes even going as far as being friends before they arrive to the isle, or immediately upon arriving.

Metagaming is against the rules, and while it's difficult to enforce I don't think it means we should just not enforce it at all.

I feel in a way like the appeal to rules around npcs is a reach. Sure, it's not an outright wrong argument. But why have a distinction at all if the argument is going to be "Well they're not no-pvp zones because there might be exceptional circumstances"? Why not just make everything require raid-style approval if that was the actual case? It seems like a logical conclusion of the distinction is that they're there to discourage only certain kinds of activity (like drow wandering around without disguises) but not all activities.

[Peacelily]

You also have the marvelous issue of not being able to tell if someone should be in the UD, when it comes to PvP.

To explain, say you say 'Okay, no internal PVP in the Hub, save that for outside, only attack surfacers'. Who defines a surfacer? Someone one group doesn't like? Anyone can get an Outcast token, so you can have elves who can't live above as they've been accused to be necromancers or diabolists or vampires. Humans get an easy pass, in a lot of ways, as they can start as Outcasts and no one bats an eye. If a dwarf or halfling or elf was exiled from settlements and got Outcast - would they still be a surfacer, or would they be welcome in Andunor under this?

That's a big reason for the ruling on being careful in the Hub. You don't know. You don't know whether someone should be in the UD, or not, so as long as they're trading (and not, say, blocking trade by killing anyone who might be a surfacer), you're probably okay.

[Algol]

I understand there are some extreme circumstances... Like if hub was 100% pvp free chances are we'd see elves frolicking around there. Perhaps a strict stance from the DMs would be required to ensure PvP in settlements was logical. I don't meant to be an elitist jerk but most pvp I see in the hub is very very silly.

And surfacer/ underdarker split is not native to the lore I believe.

[Drogo Gyslain]

The Hub? No.

Andunor is Hell on Earth. It's the central pit for monster races, hated beings and what the surface sees as scum. And rightfully earned. It's a power hungry, Despotic cesspool of constant attempts at power grabs and systemic struggles to come out on top fueled by darkness, rage and hatred from a plethora of races forced to live seperated from the surface based on centuries and Millenia's old conflicts and blood feuds that span time outliving even the eldest of Elves and Drow, longer than Dragons.

The Hub is absolutely not a place where it should be concieved that surfacers be free from conflict. Death is common, and is the way of things. It is absolutely not Neutral Ground. The Hub is the Heart and center of the Arelith Underdark, and one of the scariest, riskiest places to even think of traversing. Everyone there is an enemy, Noone is to be trusted, and everything is ready to kill you at a moment's notice for even breathing there.

If the Hub were ever de-PVP'ed, it would eliminate all of the risk, all of the deterrent of just waltzing around. It undermines the authority and fear of the city and the setting. "Elves Prancing" would be right. People would instantly treat Andunor like a joke. Being able to walk below freely with no reprocussions, no threats to survival.

Dis is Evil, but is Neutral in it's approach. They have no wish to war or quarrel with Planar people, but their business is good. As long as they walk with respect, and maintain the peace, so be it.

Shadowvar is Evil, but is Neutral in it's approach. They also have no wish to war or quarrel but business is good.

The Hub, and Andunor, is Evil and filled with Hatred for the Surface. They have reasons to hate all Surfacers. They have reasons to kill and reject people coming below. They have no need to be neutral, there is no peace to be found in the heart of your enemies biggest city.

[DM Monkey]

Make sure that you don't confuse IC rules with OOC rules.

OOC rules can be found here (wiki.nwnarelith.com/rules) and must be adhered to at all times. IC rules can be broken by anyone, anytime you want, if it makes sense for your character. You need to keep in mind that there can sometimes be severe IC consequences for breaking IC rules. Both the Shadovar Outpost and the city of Dis are examples of where these consequences can be more extreme and enforced by DMs in the roles of NPCs. Just let the DMs know what is happening with a PM to "Active DMs" or a message in /dm. Devils and the Shadovar both have very long memories and know how to exact revenge.

No one is free from conflict anywhere on Arelith. No one is safe. You're not safe in your special faction base. You're not safe in your quarter. None of your fixtures are safe. None of your items are safe. The world is harsh and unforgiving. That's the world you're playing in! The only thing you have control over is the actions and responses that your own character takes. Sometimes bad things happen to good adventurers.

[Diegovog]

I wouldn't try to find a lot of IC reasons to explain why Shadovar Tradepost is a neutral ground and the Hub is not. The Hubmaster could easily enforce as severely as the shadovar. In the end it's a world design decision, otherwise there would be far too many spies abusing the neutrality.

Nobody should feel completely safe in Dis, out of all places. But it is much safer than expected to make the area transitable and reasonable to be visited.

I like the way things are now. If someone is smart and careful enough, they can try to kill/assassinate someone who foolishly believes they are too safe in these neutral grounds.

[BattleDrake]

I like the way things are now. If someone is smart and careful enough, they can try to kill/assassinate someone who foolishly believes they are too safe in these neutral grounds.

Except you can't. DMs have taken control of NPCs to kill anyone trying to do this in those areas giving the explicit ruling that there's to be no pvp in those zones.

The requirement is to ask a DM via a pm for approval, which gives people who use these places to retreat to after pvp a safehaven, essentially. An advantage over everyone else.

The shadovar trade post is fine, because you can't have a home there. But Dis? There's even guildhouses there. It's an unfair advantage to everyone else on the server.

[Algol]

Make sure that you don't confuse IC rules with OOC rules.

OOC rules can be found here (wiki.nwnarelith.com/rules) and must be adhered to at all times. IC rules can be broken by anyone, anytime you want, if it makes sense for your character. You need to keep in mind that there can sometimes be severe IC consequences for breaking IC rules. Both the Shadovar Outpost and the city of Dis are examples of where these consequences can be more extreme and enforced by DMs in the roles of NPCs. Just let the DMs know what is happening with a PM to "Active DMs" or a message in /dm. Devils and the Shadovar both have very long memories and know how to exact revenge.

No one is free from conflict anywhere on Arelith. No one is safe. You're not safe in your special faction base. You're not safe in your quarter. None of your fixtures are safe. None of your items are safe. The world is harsh and unforgiving. That's the world you're playing in! The only thing you have control over is the actions and responses that your own character takes. Sometimes bad things happen to good adventurers.

While I understand it is IC rules and they can be broken, the threat of DM NPCs kinda skews it towards an OOC rule as well in my opinion. I personally think other settlements would be as vindictive as those two, especially the hub master. But they seem to care more about threats from Underdark and Surface instead.

[TheDoctor]

No one is free from conflict anywhere on Arelith. No one is safe. You're not safe in your special faction base. You're not safe in your quarter. None of your fixtures are safe. None of your items are safe.

Everyone with a ship is laughing now

[The GrumpyCat]

OOC rules can be found here (wiki.nwnarelith.com/rules) and must be adhered to at all times. IC rules can be broken by anyone, anytime you want, if it makes sense for your character. You need to keep in mind that there can sometimes be severe IC consequences for breaking IC rules. Both the Shadovar Outpost and the city of Dis are examples of where these consequences can be more extreme and enforced by DMs in the roles of NPCs. Just let the DMs know what is happening with a PM to "Active DMs" or a message in /dm. Devils and the Shadovar both have very long memories and know how to exact revenge.

Whilst I strongly agree with this statement, I would still strongly adivse, nay plea, that players not pvp in these areas. There are two reasons for this.

a) It's extra work for us, which we really don't need.
b) On a meta level, there is sometimes a lack of trust on the server reguarding conflict, both In Character and OOC. Places such as the Shadovar And Dis are absolutly vital so that two sides can actually y'know, roleplay and create interesting conflicts

I do understand that the good will of these areas can be abused, by both people ignoring the npcs and pvping there, and those using the npcs as complete shields, and we can look into these cases and and when they come up. In the mean time, I'd really implore all sides not to fall into either trap.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

You know, some years back (nwn time, It could be 2 years ago or 5 years ago I really couldn't be sure without searching up the thread) I made a suggestion that pvp in areas where the environment would be hostile to your characters should need a dm to carry out. Pirates in Cordor, Radiant heart in sencliff, ect ect. The idea wasn't about safe zones, but rather strengthening the setting to be more realistic, a common cause of mine if you read these forums. The addition of the DM in my estimation does not make carrying something out impossible, but rather makes a pair of drow have a plan for getting into Cordor at night and killing the chancellor for whatever reason and a plan to get back out.

Needless to say, it went the same way this thread is going, with conversations about players abusing the "safety" of certain areas to avoid consequences. And it's true, the way things are it 100% prevents people from stirring the pot and then hiding behind the safety of their city or whatever. But it also does a few more things.

• Increases the urge to speed level if you are a person who likes conflict. Why would I want to start anything before being level 30 when the places that should be prime for story driven conflict have the same pvp rules as the middle of the wilds and all it takes is an itchy trigger finger to send it all crashing down into pvp five minutes in?

• Increases the desire to be surrounded by your ooc friends across characters. When stuff starts to pop off, who would you rather be with, some guy you barely know ic even if your characters have been buddies for 6 months or your besties you terrorized sibayad with over several characters for the last five years? This is how folks slip away from the character they were playing and into avatars of themselves more often than not.

• And finally increases the bad will around pvp. Whether you are the most adamant pvper or someone who doesn't particularly like pvp but accepts its part of the game, sometimes you just need a few days off to remember why the character was more than a pvp bot and have fun with roleplaying again, especially when you are on the side that is way overmatched. Going up to two days between pvp instead of one helped some with that, but I prefer solutions that make ic sense rather than arbitrary ooc rules not only for the setting's sake, but because as the point said it makes more sense to someone less familiar with how arelith on pvp works. And trust me when I say that while the rules are small in number and easy enough to find, there are a lot of nuances they don't cover which can be daunting for a player coming from somewhere else that doesn't put as much of a premium on the pvp experience as Arelith does. Not that that's a huge thing anymore, Arelith done swallowed up all the non-kink nwn players for the most part by now, but you never know.

Now, it's certainly true, all three of those things are overblown and one can easily avoid any sort of pvp 90% of the time if one wants to, and if things get excessive you can always report it to the dms. But that's also true of the fear of people using safer areas as a shield. For the most part, people who start conflict tend to want to see it through because they like it. And on Arelith, that means arguing a little, then pvp wars more often than not until one side gets sick enough of losing, they just give up. And if they do play "Poke the bear" you can always report it to the dms. Or just get one to oversee you going into to get them, because again I like IC solutions whenever they are possible!

Anyways, this is probably still a losing fight. People hold on to conventional wisdom for too long even when it is no longer logical, it's part of the human condition. And probably once upon a time there were enough kids running around areltih where "poke the bear" was a common thing. But those kids are in their thirties now lol, and all the pvp free-for-all rules accomplish these days is essentially provide a "Plot Armor" for those who just wanna show off their pvp skills.

[Hazard]

You know, some years back (nwn time, It could be 2 years ago or 5 years ago I really couldn't be sure without searching up the thread) I made a suggestion that pvp in areas where the environment would be hostile to your characters should need a dm to carry out. Pirates in Cordor, Radiant heart in sencliff, ect ect. The idea wasn't about safe zones, but rather strengthening the setting to be more realistic, a common cause of mine if you read these forums. The addition of the DM in my estimation does not make carrying something out impossible, but rather makes a pair of drow have a plan for getting into Cordor at night and killing the chancellor for whatever reason and a plan to get back out.

Needless to say, it went the same way this thread is going, with conversations about players abusing the "safety" of certain areas to avoid consequences. And it's true, the way things are it 100% prevents people from stirring the pot and then hiding behind the safety of their city or whatever. But it also does a few more things.

• Increases the urge to speed level if you are a person who likes conflict. Why would I want to start anything before being level 30 when the places that should be prime for story driven conflict have the same pvp rules as the middle of the wilds and all it takes is an itchy trigger finger to send it all crashing down into pvp five minutes in?

• Increases the desire to be surrounded by your ooc friends across characters. When stuff starts to pop off, who would you rather be with, some guy you barely know ic even if your characters have been buddies for 6 months or your besties you terrorized sibayad with over several characters for the last five years? This is how folks slip away from the character they were playing and into avatars of themselves more often than not.

• And finally increases the bad will around pvp. Whether you are the most adamant pvper or someone who doesn't particularly like pvp but accepts its part of the game, sometimes you just need a few days off to remember why the character was more than a pvp bot and have fun with roleplaying again, especially when you are on the side that is way overmatched. Going up to two days between pvp instead of one helped some with that, but I prefer solutions that make ic sense rather than arbitrary ooc rules not only for the setting's sake, but because as the point said it makes more sense to someone less familiar with how arelith on pvp works. And trust me when I say that while the rules are small in number and easy enough to find, there are a lot of nuances they don't cover which can be daunting for a player coming from somewhere else that doesn't put as much of a premium on the pvp experience as Arelith does. Not that that's a huge thing anymore, Arelith done swallowed up all the non-kink nwn players for the most part by now, but you never know.

Now, it's certainly true, all three of those things are overblown and one can easily avoid any sort of pvp 90% of the time if one wants to, and if things get excessive you can always report it to the dms. But that's also true of the fear of people using safer areas as a shield. For the most part, people who start conflict tend to want to see it through because they like it. And on Arelith, that means arguing a little, then pvp wars more often than not until one side gets sick enough of losing, they just give up. And if they do play "Poke the bear" you can always report it to the dms. Or just get one to oversee you going into to get them, because again I like IC solutions whenever they are possible!

Anyways, this is probably still a losing fight. People hold on to conventional wisdom for too long even when it is no longer logical, it's part of the human condition. And probably once upon a time there were enough kids running around areltih where "poke the bear" was a common thing. But those kids are in their thirties now lol, and all the pvp free-for-all rules accomplish these days is essentially provide a "Plot Armor" for those who just wanna show off their pvp skills.

You do word-writing better than me do. Good post. Me like.

[Paint]

As a relevant note, as someone who originally came to Arelith with no interest in the PVP, I found out pretty quickly that it's pretty difficult to avoid conflict with other players if you want to explore certain conceptual spaces. If you want to have any narrative control in those situations -- or want to get out of poor situations that bored players or players looking to get a notch on their character's belt force on you -- when they reach a boiling point you:

-Power Level to 30.
-Build the most optimal build you can.
-Collect in groups of like-minded individuals.

Or, you simply take your L and move on. This results, in some cases, in reduction of social and political power, and can directly translate to less RP opportunities for characters who are designed to explore certain concepts. It certainly won't have any bearing on Chelsea Commoner whose RP is literally just hanging out in town all day and selling food, mind. But, a heroic paladin who loses all the time isn't a heroic paladin; they're a loser who loses all the time. That can be fun to explore, but if you want to explore the former, you do that by playing the game the way it's designed.

Because Arelith doesn't have any 'safe spaces,' it encourages the sort of mentality described above, even from people who aren't particularly belligerent or pvp driven. If that's not the team's intent for the Arelith experience, then Arelith's design does not match the team's intent, simple as.

Personally, I'm fine with the lack of safe spaces, but let's be honest. Even GrumpyCat dissuades people from PVPing in certain areas because of the headaches and mental gymnastics involved.

Still, I think it's important to acknowledge just what Arelith's current setup encourages in player behavior and why it does that.

[Dr. B]

I would like to propose a very fun possible solution: put a script in these areas where any PvP action gets you punted to some random waypoint in the Lower or Shadow Planes of Arelith. Make sure there are lots of those waypoints!! You can place them in the silliest locations.

Boom. The No PvP is still mechanically enforced, but with IC in-universe consequences that immerse you in fascinating the lore of the server.

It also imposes risk. In this case, the risk of PvP is that you might end up teleported directly into very high level mobs.

I suppose you could use a death spell on someone or kill them very quickly before the script fires, but as long as the Rules of Engagement are observed, I don't see a huge problem with that. Preventing PC death is not the point. People might argue that it immediately saves the aggressing player from fair IC retaliation, but the situation feels so niche that I don't think it's of much consequence.

Much more appealing is the idea of a whole group going at it and just getting flung around random areas on Arelith, chasing each other around, or escaping, in an andrenaline-inducing game of scries and teleportation as they flee to their respective enclaves.

Even more appealing is the idea that players and their characters, realizing the futility of this endeavor, grudgingly agree not to PvP when they run into each other in these areas, even if they are from opposing factions.

As long as all parties are treated with respect and the rules of engagement are observed, this experience could be very positive. When everyone's in on it and the roleplay is good, PvP can be very enjoyable, and I think allowing freedom or unusual scenarios like this can enhance the experience.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I got a kick out of your post Dr B, but it makes it sound as if people with varying opinions from yours want pvp to simply go away. And while there may be some of that in the hearts and minds of folks, I can tell you with absolute certainty that I am not for eradicating pvp. I am however all for slowing it down a little because it has a tendency to get over done and creates a vortex that anyone who wants to be involved with server conflict eventually gets sucked in to.

Trying to strike a happy medium between the server being a dangerous place where bad things happen and full-on arena status is a noble goal in my estimation, because there are a gazzillion different playstyles here on arelith. And the "pvp all the time" crowd forcing it down everyone else's throats at will to me is the same thing as say forcing permadeath, or enforcing how much forgotten realms lore one must know to play here, because they are all examples of dictating to others how they have to play and experience their character.

I've read enough of your posts to know that if you actually brought real ideas to the table, they would probably be good ones. But if all you have is "everything is fine, stop your salty tears" then this has to be one of the rare occasions where I disagree with you. The game has shifted for the worse in this regard. You don't have to believe me, just look at all the posts of people who would have scoffed at this stuff a few years back coming around over several threads.

[Dr. B]

I've read enough of your posts to know that if you actually brought real ideas to the table, they would probably be good ones. But if all you have is "everything is fine, stop your salty tears" then this has to be one of the rare occasions where I disagree with you. The game has shifted for the worse in this regard. You don't have to believe me, just look at all the posts of people who would have scoffed at this stuff a few years back coming around over several threads.

I don't know what on earth I wrote in my post to solicit this kind of hostility, so I'm going to just flag it as the sort of conduct that I'd hope the mods would gently discourage, and move on.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I've read enough of your posts to know that if you actually brought real ideas to the table, they would probably be good ones. But if all you have is "everything is fine, stop your salty tears" then this has to be one of the rare occasions where I disagree with you. The game has shifted for the worse in this regard. You don't have to believe me, just look at all the posts of people who would have scoffed at this stuff a few years back coming around over several threads.

I don't know what on earth I wrote in my post to solicit this kind of hostility, so I'm going to just flag it as the sort of conduct that I'd hope the mods would gently discourage, and move on.

Hostility? Lol, my post was 90% complimentary and 10% pointing out that your prior post was not one of your best. Considering that you are essentially making fun of other folk's opinions in said post, I think that was a generous response. I don't mind the humor, like I mentioned I actually appreciated it, it made me laugh. But to try and turn it around and make yourself a victim? That's some next level comedy I'm not sure I get.

[The GrumpyCat]

Please keep this civil, guys, or I am locking the thread.

[Peacelily]

With that in mind, can we get what staff policy is on Hub PvP? The wiki says

The Hub is a special area. It’s the only prime social location in the Underdark with all of the vendors. It’s full of lower level characters. In the setting, it represents a sort of neutral area where the Hubmaster welcomes characters from all over to come and do trading. That isn’t to say surfacers should feel welcome, but this particular area should be treated with care and special consideration before you attack someone or cause a scene. We look much more closely at situations involving the Hub than we do other settlements.

but the reality is that anyone even suspected of being a surfacer is run out, PvP is quite common, and districts try to enforce their own exiling from their own district to the Hub, pushing people out of the UD entirely. If staff could clarify what their policy is, that might help people plan?

[AstralUniverse]

With that in mind, can we get what staff policy is on Hub PvP? The wiki says

The Hub is a special area. It’s the only prime social location in the Underdark with all of the vendors. It’s full of lower level characters. In the setting, it represents a sort of neutral area where the Hubmaster welcomes characters from all over to come and do trading. That isn’t to say surfacers should feel welcome, but this particular area should be treated with care and special consideration before you attack someone or cause a scene. We look much more closely at situations involving the Hub than we do other settlements.

but the reality is that anyone even suspected of being a surfacer is run out, PvP is quite common, and districts try to enforce their own exiling from their own district to the Hub, pushing people out of the UD entirely. If staff could clarify what their policy is, that might help people plan?

I love that the hub is set up this way and I lean towards believing that it is intentional that the hub belongs to no district (not even temporarily by auctions) to facilitate exactly this.

In my own personal experience, as an actual surfacer coming to the hub I was never once been chased, killed or asked to leave. Mostly I guess because I respected the setting, coming fully warded, baring gifts to the locals, and bringing something valuable to trade and most importantly just not pissing anyone off.

[Hazard]

In my own personal experience, I've had multiple of my characters "banned from the hub" by PCs from districts or factions, for no real IC reasons beyond ... Not obeying when they /shout "HALT!" because "I don't recognise you!". In one case it was an UD-friendly race that had caused 0 problems as of yet and had 0 surface allegiances, hadn't even talked to anyone yet outside of adventures, but some began to spread (and post) the rumors that they are a surfacer (not true, yet) and "unwelcome for disrupting trade", because they failed to halt once to a random Drow shouting. Sorry, had places to be, and you're not a guard. Not sure how selling wares cheaper than anyone else, silenlty, is "disrupting trade" but alright. That character went on to actually become a surfacer because they might as well. Self fulfilling prophecy, and the UD ended up with an enemy that ultimately was too much for them to handle, and was secretly and sometimes not so secretly behind a lot of their defeats.

Another character, has been attacked in the hub multiple times without reason or provocation, and then attacked for killing their attackers, and then attacked for having 'been a part of problems' in the past (said attacks). In all of these attacks, my character was fine, but the bodies just kept piling up for absolutely no reason. All they use the hub for is crafting and selling up between trips, and sometimes a casual chat if someone bothers to stop them and initiate such a thing. They have a reputation of being incredibly respectful and polite.

I'm not saying this to be salty. Neither of my characters were ever killed, in fact, it's the attackers that ended up getting killed/hurt. Worst case scenario I've had to leave the hub for about half an hour and come back later. Neither character has been prevented from using the hub whenever they want, but the fact remains that PCs regularly treat the hub as if they are guards in their own settlement.

I'm bringing these points up, not to air dirty laundry, but to very clearly illustrate just how much of a disconnect there is between what the staff say the hub is, and what the hub actually is.

The wiki says the hub is a place where if you come and do peaceful trade and leave (ie, not gathering info, not arguing, not doing anything) the peacekeepers will make sure you can do that.

In reality, the hub is a place where there are no laws, and whatever group has the most active amount of PvP-viable builds can openly and freely attack as many people as they want, for whatever reasons they want, and then just say 'Actually, you were disrupting the trade."

This is what I mean by the rules need to be made/enforced stricter, rather than having a no-pvp zone.
Conflict is fine, and good even, when there is reason behind it. If you are in the hub it should feel dangerous, and you should watch how you conduct yourself or things end terribly very swiftly, but that doesn't also mean a free-for-all where anyone can kill anyone for any reason. That absolutely is ignoring the peacekeepers.

I play all over the server. It's only once I get to the hub that there always seems to be one group or another trying to throw their weight around by the portal as if they're guards in their own settlement.

Seems a change is needed to fix the discrepency between what the staff is saying the hub is, and what it actually is.
It'd be nice to see, but ultimately, I'm also fine with just killing someone every time I want to conduct my business, but keep in mind not every build/player is going to be able to do that, and most just get run out.

If the hub is meant to be a PvP-free-for-all, then just do nothing. That's what it currently is. Maybe correct some of the wording in module and the wiki so that players stop getting the wrong impression.