Cleric Vs Spellsword

[L I C E]

Hello.

Spellsword is ultimately superior to cleric in almost every aspect. It has no real dispellable AB or AC, +5 weapon, +5 armor, 3+4 shield if you're abjurant and some insanely powerful spells. It has 30 CL because it has no need to dip, has free breach resistance, a bunch of epic feats and a load of free class feats.

Cleric, on the other hand, is feat-starved, divine based, has the majority of their utility and AC and AB removable by a single dispel and relies on dips at the cost of CL just to keep up with SS in any regard. AD ABJ is essentially a must-pick when playing cleric, so that's already a feat tax of 2 of your very limited selection of feats. Due to needing dips for most if not all paths, you lose out on epic bonus feats as a result which hurts it even more.

I've a lot of things I could suggest to fix cleric, and a few of them I've discussed or thrown around in discord. I'll quick-fire them

• Undispellable divine power and/or favor. My freaking GOD is filling me with divine power and some nimrod spellsword can just go "nope" and tell my awesome deity to STFU. Undispellable divine favor sounds like a balance issue, but given that SS gets an extra attack at 27 for free and weave AC and AB and my AB and extra attacl is tied to an easily dispellable buff, I don't think it's too unfair.

• Modified CL scaling for paths. 3/4 rogue levels for seeker? 1/3 this, 2/3 that? If majority levels are in cleric, then for certain paths allow full CL scaling. Nobody is going to want to dip crazy on a cleric anyway as if you take anything less than 21 levels you can't take epic cleric feats and anything less than 23 doesn't get a bonus feat. Anything less than 17 doesn't get 9th level spells so no ESF. This would be an ideal fix. Almost perfect. No longer would you lose 2 feats to AD abjuration just trying to desperately hit even CL 29.

• Extra cleric bonus feats. SS gets it. Why can't cleric?

• Discipline added to cleric class skills.

And more. Thoughts?

[Richrd]

You forgot the biggest advantage that Spellsword has over Cleric.

No need to RP being a follower of a God, coming up with divine catch phrases or sticking to a set of self imposed rules.

Spellsword is the ultimate NRP fantasy.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I don't know the numbers to compare that well, so maybe i have this wrong. But I feel like the battle priest path is wildly unexplored. Imagine this-16 cleric, 4 fighter (or divine if you want to be stretched on abilities) 10 cot. you have max cl against dispels, 23 cl for your hastes which is lower but still 46 rounds if extended, feats galore and damage galore.

I know spellswords have really good damage output, and maybe that makes it better than this build still, but i think it's closer than a lot of people think. Plus, you have breach protection (one less spell breached), not sure if spell swords get that or not.

This set up for battle priest was always something I intended to play, but never got around to it. Not sure I will ever get the chance at this point either, so if anyone is feeling adventurous, I always wondered who would win h2h between these two. I duked it out with a buddy once on the pgcc, but I made the build on the fly and was woefully under geared resulting in me losing to acid sheath lol.

[Yvesza]

So I'd have agreed with this as of a few days ago but I honestly thing that elemental avatar helps to bridge the gap and the recent nerf to disjunction (Spellsword) was a big deal.

Ultimately I do agree that the windup for clerics is more prohibitive but I think that they hold a significantly higher cap when it comes to what they can potentially accomplish. That isn't free though, you've gotta work a lot harder for it but the payoff is definately there.

Spellsword is just the perfect combination of low effort and strong to make it somewhat oppressive. I do think some of the damage needs to be shaved off the top but other than that, I think it's pretty close.

[Diegovog]

Just because cleric is behind spellsword doesn't mean they need a buff. 90% of the classes are behind spellswords.
If anything, clerics are too strong, have too much sustain, have access to the best spells in the server such as WoF, harm, heal, greater resto, mass heal, magic vestment, are wis based for monk dip or zen archery, they can also multi class with divine builds for insane AC or even make pretty good bard multiclass with evangelist path.

Clerics are pretty much insanely good and useful. They do not need any buffs whatsoever.

But I'd be happy with spellsword nerf!

[Svrtr]

So I'll not comment on the suggestions themselves here, but I will throw in some math for comparison as it's something I've gone over. Let's compare battle cleric and abjurant spellsword

AC:

Cleric gets
10 base
14 armor (8 plate 1 dex 5 magic vestment)
8 shield (3 tower shield 5 vestment)
4 natural from bark skin wands (5 with plant domain or sequencer)
5 deflection shield of faith
6 tumble
2 armor skin
4 haste
1 mage armor
1 boots

55/56 ac, of which 12 plus dex is lost to flatfoot, 15/16 of which is dispellable and 7 of which is breachable

Abjurant gets
10 base
14 armor (imbue instead of vestment)
7 shield
4 deflection shield spell
4 natural bark pot or 5 with sequencer (which Ss can use a bark sequencer if they find people to make them, and I know they exist)
4 weave ac
4 haste
3 tumble
2 armor skin
1 mage armor (2 with greater mage armor)
1 boots

54/55/56 ac, so if they get a bark skin sequencer and use greater mage armor they are an equal to cleric with +5 bark. Only 13 of this is lost to flatfoot because SS gets uncanny dodge, only 10/11/12 of which is dispellable, and only 5/6 of which is breachable

AB

Average human cleric ends with 22/24 strength but I believe the 24 strength one takes great strength and might not be able to fit possess. Average human abjurant ends on 28 strength

Cleric
20 bab
12-13 strength (fully buffed)
5 div power
5 div favor
4 weapon
3 ewf
1 prowess
2 battle tide/war cry
1 prayer
1 aid
1 bless

55/56 ab (56 being if they both have 13 strength modifier and epic prowess), of which 15 ab is directly dispellable and 2-3 of which is dispellable if bulls strength is dispelled

Ss abjurant
20 bab
15 strength
5 weapon
4 weave ab
3 ewf
1 prowess
2 warcry (and I know some who go for aid Wands)
Fire imbue armor

50 ab, 51 if they do get aid, of which only 2 or 3 of which is dispellable directly and 2-3 more if bulls strength is relied on, plus fire armor imbue is a bonus that is undispellable

DAMAGE

Let's say that both SS and cleric use the same weapon for the sake of math, and that it's a unique +4 as the case of SS using an m.damask scimitar makes the problem even worse than below

Cleric damage bonuses are

Strength - 12-13
Divine favor - 5 magic damage
Battle tide/war cry - 2
Deafening clang - d8, d10 if you're a 27/3 warpriest or seeker

SS abjurant gets
Strength - 15
Warcry - 2
Elemental weapon - 2d8+2 where the 2 is utterly irreducible

19-20 plus deafening in cleric, 19 plus 2d8 on SS putting it up about 4 damage, and this disparity is made worse if the imbue is magic since magic is largely irreducible

However elemental strike is a max ab attack that empowers if the damage matches with the imbue resulting in an instant attack at max AB which does 3d8 more damage and has interactions that means epic dodge doesnt outright ignore it and overcomes the NWN adage of "to win in melee just press down W" since it can be used on the move, on top of the special elemental strike effects such as a burn or vulnerability or life steal or apr reduction and potential slow

ATTACK PROGRESSION

While it seems cleric has more overall AB in spite of how much more it loses, this advantage is lessened by the attack progression

Hasted cleric

0/-5/-10/0/-5

Hasted SS

0/-5/-10/0/0

This is because elemental strike being instant eats what would be the second -5 attack, and a higher attack progression is fantastic because it means that many more attack will likely land AND confirm criticals, on top of the aforementioned bonuses of being an instant attack

STAT SPREAD

Everyone needs int for skill points. Int is a stat everyone needs where as wisdom and charisma are not universally useful, on top of spellcraft being an int skill for more spell saves

This means that SS has a lot more room for stats because they only need to invest in strength, con, and enough int to get 18 int

Meanwhile cleric needs strength, con, int, and then 19 wisdom on top. This results in the comparative level 1 and 30 stat spread for cleric vs abjurant of

Abjurant - level 1

17 strength gifted to 19
9 dex
14 con
16 int gifted to 18
8 Wis
8 charisma

Level 30

28 strength from 7 into strength and enough bonus feats to get 2 great strength
9 dex
14 con
18 int
8 Wis
8 cha

On top of having 4+int skill points for 8 skill points per SS level

Cleric - level 1

15 strength gifted to 17
8 dex
14 con
14 int
16 Wis gifted to 18
8 charisma

Level 30

22 strength from 5 into strength, 24 if they put in 6 and take a value of great strength with limited epic feats
8 dex
14 con
14 Int
19 wisdom from 1 into Wis if 24 strength, 20 Wis if 22 strength
8 charisma

As well as only having 6 skill points per cleric level

FEATS

abjurant:

Ss gets 3 bonus feats pre epic. Spending 2 for the abjurant path tax and the path itself that's 1 pre epic bonus feat

In epics because ss 30 is optimal they get 3 bonus epic feats AS WELL AS esf abj for free whilst having BREACH RESISTANCE and 30 CL

Cleric:

Cleric gets no bonus pre epic feats, and needs to go 27/3 and thus only gets 2 epic feats

On top cleric does not get esf abj for free AND needs to take ad abj

Cleric is thus down 2 pre epic feats for both the ad abj tax and no bonus feat and 2 epic feats for the same reason compared to abjurant. This can be argued as one epic feat since abjurant takes AS3 but cleric is still down in feats, doesn't get breach resistance by default, AND only gets 29 CL

QoL and misc features:

SS gets a pixie

Ss armor imbue gives 30% elemental DI and 15/- vs element where shield imbue is 15% and 7/-, both being massively up in a cleric

Imbue armor and shield don't take up spell slots where cleric needs to use magic vestment

The SS armor passives means they gain even more ac or ab or 4 Regen, gaining even UNDISPELLABLE NO SPELL SLOT COSTING regeneration and negative weapon imbue life steal meaning they gain more life per round than a cleric with regenerate does

SS even gets haste as a 3rd level spell where cleric gets it as a 5th level spell, 4 with travel domain. Then SS conveniently gets warcry as a 4th level spell so USING HASTE AND WARCRY DONT EAT THE SAME SLOTS AND ARE A LOWER LEVEL than cleric and thus get more casts. Mda while battle tide is ALSO A 5TH LEVEL SPELL for cleric so your casts of haste and battle tide on cleric conflict immensely and this point is A HUGE ONE I AM CAPITALIZING SO PEOPLE DON'T IGNORE IT AND READ THIS

I am sure there is more I'm missing but I'll end here for now

MORE MATH TO COME AS I FLESH THIS OUT AT WORK

Addendum (Windup): Clerics suffer significantly when it comes to the time taken to be fully functional compared to a spellsword.

Spellsword Windup: Haste, Warcry (6 seconds / 1 Round), 9 if they trt acid sheath too

Cleric Windup: Haste, Div Favour, Div Power, Prayer, Bless, Battletide/Warcry (18 Seconds/ 3 Rounds), then another half round if they go for a damage shield

Meanwhile if the cleric and SS fight, while the cleric is buffing this gives more time for the SS to mords or g.dispel

[Paint]

Svrtr hits the nail on the head as always.

See, the thing is, Warpriest is pretty powerful in a vacuum, but when you throw it into Arelith proper, it tends to crumble because it just can't keep those kinds of numbers up for long enough. Spellsword on the other hand has more stable AB, more stable AC, and an attack schedule that means a spellsword is healthy in combat with a lower AB than most other melee classes and builds. A spellsword's 48 AB is on par with your WM's 51 AB, because the spellsword gets through its attack schedule quickly, and gets three attacks at max AB, almost uniquely, every single round.

Additionally, Spellsword can make use of some of the tools that Warpriest has to give up, like Gate -- not that it's particularly easy for a spellsword to get the kind of lore required for that -- but there's certainly room for it.

Warpriest needs -something- to give it a little more oomph without raising its power ceiling, and I honestly think that comes in the form of some protection for essential warpriest buffs. The only thing I can think of is a list of buffs that warpriests and seekers commonly use which need to be successfully dispel-checked twice or multiple times.(Not necessarily from multiple dispels. I.E. a g.dispel hits a warpriest and begins going down a list of buffs to dispel. It runs into Warcry. It successfully dispels it once, so it has to try again. If the second time it attempts to dispel it, it fails, warcry persists, if it succeeds, warcry is dispelled.) Alternatively, if checking twice is computationally expensive, just square their dispel chance.

This'd make dispelling warpriests and seekers a lot less reliable, while still allowing for counterplay, and bruteforce dispelling to overcome them and is, imo, a very elegant and easy solution for at least one of warpriest's longest-running problems.

[L I C E]

Spellsword being cl 30 at no cost is the most egregious thing when compared. CL 29 is just not the same as CL 30. To all the cleric paths, i think making their dip options grant full CL scaling if 70% of levels are majority cleric would be an ideal fix. 70% of 30 is 21, which is exactly the level required for epic cleric. If you're not an epic cleric you shouldn't qualify for this bonus. This prevents a lot of whacky shit, keeping one dip to maximum 9 levels or 4 and 5 of two if you don't care about epic cleric feats. This prevents power creep and gives cleric something it sorely needs. Most clerics won't dip more than maybe 3+4, like monk fighter warpriest or ranger rogue seeker etc

[AstralUniverse]

Lets also remember that when we compare clerics to NOT spellsword, it's a pretty powerful class that does not need any buffs what so ever, it just happens that a class with Mord + instant follow up burst damage is Cleric's biggest counter.

[Kythana]

Spellsword being cl 30 at no cost is the most egregious thing when compared. CL 29 is just not the same as CL 30. To all the cleric paths, i think making their dip options grant full CL scaling if 70% of levels are majority cleric would be an ideal fix. 70% of 30 is 21, which is exactly the level required for epic cleric. If you're not an epic cleric you shouldn't qualify for this bonus. This prevents a lot of whacky shit, keeping one dip to maximum 9 levels or 4 and 5 of two if you don't care about epic cleric feats. This prevents power creep and gives cleric something it sorely needs. Most clerics won't dip more than maybe 3+4, like monk fighter warpriest or ranger rogue seeker etc

Upping the CL to 30 still wouldn't fix it. Cleric has so much of its power tied to dispelable buffs that even with CL30, an Abjurant Champion still has a 25% chance per disjunction or greater dispelling(and this one isn't nerfed either ) to delete your divine favor or power. ...Or many of the other buffs that cleric specifically needs to use to have similar numbers to spellword.

Speaking as a primary mundane player with 30 CL, it sounds like a lot, but it really isn't. The odds are against you ultimately, and you lose to attrition or burst dispels.

The only thing I can think of is a list of buffs that warpriests and seekers commonly use which need to be successfully dispel-checked twice or multiple times.

I'd also be happy with just combining some of these buffs for cleric, or some kind of unique spell that reapplies a group of buffs. Similar to divine synergy.

[Whosdis]

Cleric has a lot of customizability and modularity, and that's why as someone who abhors divine classes, I was strongly, strongly, strongly, strongly tempted to make a Seeker Cleric. I've been told I'm not the only who went into a bit of a deep dive on messed up cleric builds.

If there's one major flaw about Cleric, it's needing to go lawful to get its full potential (cough cough monk dip cough cough), but having Wisdom as your primary caster stat combined with monk AC and Zen Archery along with being a full caster and all the gimmicks of Seeker Cleric just make it a very effective and versatile build.

I found Spellswords to be monumentally boring and cookie cutter in comparison, although I played a Strength Bladesinger both before and after the removal of Spellsword's Greater Mage Armor (and before a variant of that spell were re-added in Spellmageddon).

If there's one class I think is hot garbage, I would say it's Favored Soul. A sorcerer without divine shield is laughable, and consequently it doesn't play nice or synergize in practically any dip.

[Kuma]

if we're going to nerf spellsword again can we please restrict it to abj champ this time, i'm tired of being collateral on a pathless spellsword that is quite genuinely underwhelming compared to the hysteria

[Svrtr]

if we're going to nerf spellsword again can we please restrict it to abj champ this time, i'm tired of being collateral on a pathless spellsword that is quite genuinely underwhelming compared to the hysteria

While perhaps a mild nerf to abjurant isn't unjustified, I believe the general sentiment of the thread is more so "SS does what battle cleric/fvs/melee shaman do but better because it gets about as good numbers but far, far better consistency", aka that battle cleric/fvs/shaman underperform and have too little consistency and need more stability

[RedGiant]

if we're going to nerf spellsword again can we please restrict it to abj champ this time, i'm tired of being collateral on a pathless spellsword that is quite genuinely underwhelming compared to the hysteria

Don't worry Kuma, I don't main one right now, so it is fairly safe.

A second unpopular opinion, I don't think what pushes SS over the edge is a number or two here, rather it's the full access to the breach arsenal. Witness the recent Mord's nerf for SS.

I've long complained about the 'breach' economy and how it contributes to peculiar "you will die to sword" meta of Arelith. Of all the spells that should be on a timer, Mord's is first among them. It is also such a BS spell, because you don't even have to be able to target your enemy, so it invalidates stealth, sanctuary, any many other reasonable counters. It truly combines the best of breaching (single target) and the best of dispelling (area target). Plus, not only can you slot it, but you can scroll it, and you can spam it.

In other words, outside of unprepared shotgun PvP, you will win.

While I'm on a breach rant, I'm still waiting for the spammable consumable that reliably invalidates a mundane's sword, armor, and/or shield. Cause on the other side we have everything from anti-magic rods to endless stacks of scrolls.

I will end the rant with the suggestion that, rather than unintuitive solutions for how spells work for a single class (such as the recent Mord's fix), maybe we should look at the overall meta of breaching? If we don't want to go that far, at least try the timer option.

[hugolino]

Spellsword is ultimately superior to cleric in almost every aspect ... Thoughts?

Why is that a problem? I write that as someone who has exclusively played clerics in the past year on Arelith (probably longer). To clarify my sincere question: how important is it on Arelith for classes to be equivalent and balanced in combat capabilities? Does this effort apply only to similar classes, stronger classes, or all classes? What's the criteria and what is the reason to devote resources upon this over other areas?

I guess my fear is of homogenization of classes over time with a prioritization of combat over all other considerations when determining the value and "equality" of a class.

[L I C E]

Spellsword is ultimately superior to cleric in almost every aspect ... Thoughts?

Why is that a problem? I write that as someone who has exclusively played clerics in the past year on Arelith (probably longer). To clarify my sincere question: how important is it on Arelith for classes to be equivalent and balanced in combat capabilities? Does this effort apply only to similar classes, stronger classes, or all classes? What's the criteria and what is the reason to devote resources upon this over other areas?

I guess my fear is of homogenization of classes over time with a prioritization of combat over all other considerations when determining the value and "equality" of a class.

It's not about homogenisation, it's about consistency. They're a spellcaster class with full CL, fantastic spells, fantastic utility with zero weaknesses. Why should they be better battle clerics than a battle cleric but also better mages than a wizard? Not even wizards can get 30 CL, but SS can at NO COST. I'm not asking for cleric or shaman to be given elemental strike or imbue armor, I'm asking for the basics such as CL and breach resistance or some of their core buffs being unremovable, much like SS is.

[Whosdis]

No comment on battle cleric.

Spellswords can take a dip for more skills such as tumble et al just like wizard clan, it's just that like hexblade it loses out on their +5 imbue for both weapons and armor, on top of reducing their cl to 27/29. It's more punishing to dip spellsword relative to other classes because they need the full 30 to get their 48/49 AB.

There's nothing stopping other classes from going pure. Hell, Clerics get the +3 CL with class synergies on top of that. 23 Seeker cleric with 4 rogue 3 monk with zen archery will get approx 60 AC, 55 AB, full cleric casting, a decent amount of sneak attack due etc. It's competitive in battle, and can do a lot more than a spellsword can.

A full 30 spellsword has no bluff, no sneak, etc. It's a solid class but much more one dimensional than wizard or cleric of you go the full 30.

[Naghast]

Spellswords get +3 to cl vs dispels to cover up the cl loss from dipping. Just sayin'

[Sacoroth]

Would moving the +CL’s to earlier levels be considered? For seeker at least (moving it to lower levels like the BC) would help with builds that aren’t as heavily weighted towards cleric levels.

[AstralUniverse]

Personally I dont think Cleric is objectively worse than Spellsword, it is simply hard countered by Spellsword for a plethora of reasons. This isnt necessarily a bad thing. Class design over the years has been pushed more towards Role Play design, which results in rock paper scissors meta, and Spellsword just happens to be the hard counter to Cleric. Just one class shuts Cleric down isnt enough data to justify buffs to Cleric. It means that we should now check how Cleric fares against other classes (Spoiler: it's fine), and how Spellsword does against not-Cleric (no comment here). I think Cleric is absolutely fine now after Spellsword's Mord got nerfed. Spellsword is still the hardest counter to Cleric but at least now it isnt as one sided as it used to be, and Cleric is still fine against Not-Spellsword.

On top of this, Elemental Avatar will make Cleric even better in pvp where cleric summons are less relevant.

[Diegovog]

Personally I dont think Cleric is objectively worse than Spellsword, it is simply hard countered by Spellsword for a plethora of reasons. This isnt necessarily a bad thing. Class design over the years has been pushed more towards Role Play design, which results in rock paper scissors meta, and Spellsword just happens to be the hard counter to Cleric. Just one class shuts Cleric down isnt enough data to justify buffs to Cleric. It means that we should now check how Cleric fares against other classes (Spoiler: it's fine), and how Spellsword does against not-Cleric (no comment here). I think Cleric is absolutely fine now after Spellsword's Mord got nerfed. Spellsword is still the hardest counter to Cleric but at least now it isnt as one sided as it used to be, and Cleric is still fine against Not-Spellsword.

On top of this, Elemental Avatar will make Cleric even better in pvp where cleric summons are less relevant.

You're right about clerics being fine. They are hard counters to many classes and have one of the best kit of utility, control and sustain. But I don't think spellswords are balanced.

[-stick-]

Clerics have this Time stop followed by harm move and a variety of builds for many play styles some of those would dust a spell-sword which has what two possible good builds ?
id say just one Abjurant which goes all the way to 30ss.

[AstralUniverse]

You're right about clerics being fine. They are hard counters to many classes and have one of the best kit of utility, control and sustain. But I don't think spellswords are balanced.

I havent played Spellsword much, and not at all since the mord nerf so I got no hard opinion. My point was merely that asking for cleric buffs because it gets shut down by spellsword is not a very compelling argument. To me the summery to all of this thread could basically be "Yup, Cleric VS Spellsword is pretty one sided for the spellsword. And.... what?" because there's like a brazillion other classes in the game.

[Svrtr]

You're right about clerics being fine. They are hard counters to many classes and have one of the best kit of utility, control and sustain. But I don't think spellswords are balanced.

I havent played Spellsword much, and not at all since the mord nerf so I got no hard opinion. My point was merely that asking for cleric buffs because it gets shut down by spellsword is not a very compelling argument. To me the summery to all of this thread could basically be "Yup, Cleric VS Spellsword is pretty one sided for the spellsword. And.... what?" because there's like a brazillion other classes in the game.

If you read the comparison I wrote above, it doesn't go into detail about cleric fighting a spellsword beyond a single offhand comment st the very end but comparing the actual numbers they achieve along with the cost to achieve them.

In sum it talks about how spellsword does the same niche as battle cleric but better and for cheaper while losing far less to dispels, even getting esf abj for free whilst having more ore epic and epix bonus feats, a better attack progression that cannot be dispelled, etc etc

This is not to discuss defiler but purely battle cleric and iterations of it, and again the discussion was never about SS countering battle cleric but about what the two achieve with what they need to pay for it and how much they lose to dispels (a mechanic not unique to spellswords of course)

[AstralUniverse]

You're right about clerics being fine. They are hard counters to many classes and have one of the best kit of utility, control and sustain. But I don't think spellswords are balanced.

I havent played Spellsword much, and not at all since the mord nerf so I got no hard opinion. My point was merely that asking for cleric buffs because it gets shut down by spellsword is not a very compelling argument. To me the summery to all of this thread could basically be "Yup, Cleric VS Spellsword is pretty one sided for the spellsword. And.... what?" because there's like a brazillion other classes in the game.

If you read the comparison I wrote above, it doesn't go into detail about cleric fighting a spellsword beyond a single offhand comment st the very end but comparing the actual numbers they achieve along with the cost to achieve them.

In sum it talks about how spellsword does the same niche as battle cleric but better and for cheaper while losing far less to dispels, even getting esf abj for free whilst having more ore epic and epix bonus feats, a better attack progression that cannot be dispelled, etc etc

This is not to discuss defiler but purely battle cleric and iterations of it, and again the discussion was never about SS countering battle cleric but about what the two achieve with what they need to pay for it and how much they lose to dispels (a mechanic not unique to spellswords of course)

I simply disagree with you that Cleric is objectively worse than Spellsword or that they fill the exact same niche at all.