Headband of Protection Spell Immunity

[Coolguy McMagic]

The headband of protection is currently the best helmet by far. Spell Resistance is incredibly potent for protecting against WoF scrolls and also absolutely necessary for any non-Strength build to not instantly fold to a Balagarn's Iron Horn potion in PVP.
It also gives protection from level 1 spells. Notably, this makes the wearer immune to every cantrip. I suggest removing the level 1 spell immunity from this item.

Cantrips are very weak in PVP in general. They are only used by casters that cannot cast spells infinitely. The general consensus is that infinicasters (or casters with spell refund mechanics) are miles ahead of more "traditional" casters. The Headband makes this issue even worse, as infinicasters do not care about using cantrips (since they have access to infinite higher level spells), while traditional casters can easily run out of (offensive) spells to cast.

For the reasons outlined above the headband is already super useful. Even without the spell immunity, it is a must-have on nearly every build that does not have innate SR or uses Rogue's Leathers. It does not also need to randomly punish old-school casters by rendering their only spammable damage source obsolete.

[Kuma]

Why are you using cantrips against players?

[Coolguy McMagic]

Why are you using cantrips against players?

Right now I'm not because there's a 90% chance they have that headband. But if it didn't give spell immunity, I would use them when I run out of offensive spells. Which is a common occurence on non-infinicasters.

[Xerah]

If you're wanting to switch to cantrips vs players, I think your best chance at that point is to type in the chat box.

[Waldo52]

The headband of protection is currently the best helmet by far.

I hate to be that guy who shouts "You're a newb!" but...

I should take a second to explain what this "best helmet in the game" nets you.

Armor Bonus: +2 (AC Deflection Modifier)

Irrelevant. A basic spell/scroll of shield grants more Deflection AC than this.

Spell Resistance: 26

Pretty good.

Immunity: Damage Type : Force 5%

Better than nothing, but not much.

Immunity: Spells by Level (Level 1 or Lower)

A joke.

Tier 3 Rune (Thorass)

Good to have.

Generally it's true that you want a source of SR 26, and if you can't find ANYTHING useful to give you the buff then it's conceivable that someone would take one of these otherwise pathetic helmets for that reason alone. But really, it's a pretty terrible helmet.

My rogue leathers (padded armor) give me the same SR, they're +3 AC, they provide a +2 to a plethora of skills and an amazing spell like ability. That, and they're also runic.

THE HELMET IS BAD AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD!

Joking aside, I'm pretty bad with gear myself for a guy who's been playing for three years. People on the Builds and Mechanics forum and people on the Build Advice Arelith Discord are extremely friendly and helpful. I suggest you seek their advice for gearing your dude.

[Biolab00]

The only reason why Helmet of Protection is the more superior choice is because it gives 26SR and doesn't lower by breaches.
Hence, it gives a reliable chance of resisting WOFs from both scrolls and grimoires.
It's a pretty big deal because your enemy cannot know whether it actually blind you or it did not which affects their next course of action.

[Waldo52]

The only reason why Helmet of Protection is the more superior choice is because it gives 26SR and doesn't lower by breaches.
Hence, it gives a reliable chance of resisting WOFs from both scrolls and grimoires.
It's a pretty big deal because your enemy cannot know whether it actually blind you or it did not which affects their next course of action.

Ah.

Thank you for correcting me, I read the stats and thought it was trash.

OP Stick around these forums for a while. There are a lot of great moments like this where a veteran player calls a newb player a newb, and an even bigger veteran calls that veteran out as a newb. You'll learn a lot.

[AstralUniverse]

It's worth mentioning here that when an item/spell has spell immunity of level X or lower, it refers to the spell's Innate level, which is identical for all casters, regardless of what spell level it has in their specific spellbook. Or that's how it used to be for many many years anyway.

Balagarn's innate level is 2.

So this Headband should not block Balagarn and if it does, it's not by intention of the designer, I bet. Worth looking into it. If anybody wants to hop on pgcc and test balagarn on the headband from both bard and hemo and see if there's a difference, I'm down to help.

[Coolguy McMagic]

It's worth mentioning here that when an item/spell has spell immunity of level X or lower, it refers to the spell's Innate level, which is identical for all casters, regardless of what spell level it has in their specific spellbook. Or that's how it used to be for many many years anyway.

Balagarn's innate level is 2.

So this Headband should not block Balagarn and if it does, it's not by intention of the designer, I bet. Worth looking into it. If anybody wants to hop on pgcc and test balagarn on the headband from both bard and hemo and see if there's a difference, I'm down to help.

You're right and it should not - if it's cast by a spell. If it's from a potion, the SR will stop it.

[Shadowy Reality]

Armor Bonus: +2 (AC Deflection Modifier)

Irrelevant. A basic spell/scroll of shield grants more Deflection AC than this.

In PvP you likely wont have Shield as it will be breached. Having that +2 Deflection makes it a 2 AC loss rather than a 4 AC loss after breach. I would not say it is irrelevant.

The helm is pretty good, most classes do not have access to other SR26 options.

[Hazard]

I don't think the helmet is that great at all.

It's just that there's not really any other good options apart from good ol' addy, or enchanting a bronze (plain) helmet with some stats and skills you want to walk around with.

I've done just fine without this helmet on most of my characters.

[Cybren]

Why are you using cantrips against players?

to flux spell slots?

[Naiinara]

It's worth mentioning here that when an item/spell has spell immunity of level X or lower, it refers to the spell's Innate level, which is identical for all casters, regardless of what spell level it has in their specific spellbook. Or that's how it used to be for many many years anyway.

Balagarn's innate level is 2.

So this Headband should not block Balagarn and if it does, it's not by intention of the designer, I bet. Worth looking into it. If anybody wants to hop on pgcc and test balagarn on the headband from both bard and hemo and see if there's a difference, I'm down to help.

This isn't true. It doesn't refer to its innate level when determining whether things like globe of invulnerability will work or ghostly visage or ethereal visage. It goes off of what spell level it is cast at from your spell book. Meta magic also doesn't in this case move the spell up for purposes of bypassing immunities. For instance an ice storm is level 4 in an arcane spell book. Globe of invulnerability blocks it. A maximized ice storm is a level 7 spell slot, but it will still be blocked by globe of invulnerability. Ice storm in a druid spell book is level 5. Globe of invulnerability wont stop it, even though the innate spell level of ice storm is 4.

Balagarns iron is also cast as a first level spell in I believe bard spellbooks, which are also the base for some other classes, such as warlocks. In this case if a bard or someone using a bard based spell book cast balagarn's iron horn, the helm of protection would stop it. So would a ghostly visage spell.

[Coolguy McMagic]

It's worth mentioning here that when an item/spell has spell immunity of level X or lower, it refers to the spell's Innate level, which is identical for all casters, regardless of what spell level it has in their specific spellbook. Or that's how it used to be for many many years anyway.

Balagarn's innate level is 2.

So this Headband should not block Balagarn and if it does, it's not by intention of the designer, I bet. Worth looking into it. If anybody wants to hop on pgcc and test balagarn on the headband from both bard and hemo and see if there's a difference, I'm down to help.

This isn't true. It doesn't refer to its innate level when determining whether things like globe of invulnerability will work or ghostly visage or ethereal visage. It goes off of what spell level it is cast at from your spell book. Meta magic also doesn't in this case move the spell up for purposes of bypassing immunities. For instance an ice storm is level 4 in an arcane spell book. Globe of invulnerability blocks it. A maximized ice storm is a level 7 spell slot, but it will still be blocked by globe of invulnerability. Ice storm in a druid spell book is level 5. Globe of invulnerability wont stop it, even though the innate spell level of ice storm is 4.

Balagarns iron is also cast as a first level spell in I believe bard spellbooks, which are also the base for some other classes, such as warlocks. In this case if a bard or someone using a bard based spell book cast balagarn's iron horn, the helm of protection would stop it. So would a ghostly visage spell.

It's innate level 2. The headband only helps against the ones cast from consumables.

[-XXX-]

The SR can block scrolled WoF.
That by itself makes it the BiS helmet.

I read the other properties on the helmet as flavour text, TBH.

[Kythana]

The SR can block scrolled WoF.
That by itself makes it the BiS helmet.

I read the other properties on the helmet as flavour text, TBH.

The deflection AC is nice to have when shield of faith/shield is breached.

But other than that, yes. The other properties are just there so you can't do any weird rune shenanigan on an already really strong piece.

Also, can confirm. Headband blocks bard iron horn.

[Arigard]

Honestly entire swathes of builds shouldn't need to build around a single item due to an incredibly cheap readily available potion that will invalidate their entire build.

I know Balagorns is a left over from the days of when dexers were live lords and monk ac could stack with divine shield and make some pretty obnoxious AC numbers, but that simply isn't the case anymore. The meta has changed massively in recent years, there's people running around able to touch attack almost anything, new spells targetted at low strength builds, high strength + true strike dominates in PvP and there's instant attacks that, although disadvantaged, ignore epic dodge.

There really shouldn't be a spell that can be spammed constantly from a potion that can turn an entire engagement on it's head because you decided to go for dex and not strength. The trade off for dex builds versus strength already exists. You do considerably less damage at a bonus of being somewhat more survivable. That's enough of a trade off. I really don't see why balagorns should even exist as a spammable potion at this point, it doesn't solve any problems with the actual class that has always historically been the root issue with dex builds coughs Monk - (that also still hit like a truck compared to almost all other dex builds, with all their extra bonus class + item damage), due to their innate SR. All it does is make people fed up with playing dex builds full stop because once someone is in the know every engagement just turns intil "Let's mords/reduce the SR and then spam balagorns until you fail, get dropped and take a double crit from a WM/Spellsword/Summon".

PvP in Arelith is literally decided most of the time by level 1-2 spells in potions. It's who can chug the most true strikes, or who can knock you down with Balagorns. Please, for the love of all that is holy, can we address this incredible lameness in some way once and for all? We shouldn't have a system where such low level and readily available spells are more effective & glaringly obnoxious in how dependant they have become, than most high tier spells.

[AstralUniverse]

The Headband is kind of the only helmet that benefits pretty much 90% of the characters about equally. It does not favor any class(es). It is only slightly less useful to races with 26 sr. Even builds with abjuration foci need to maintain another (breachable) spell in order to get the benefit from abjuration vs force damage, headband's bonus is instead smaller but more consistent. I personally like that it's damage immunity % since it then reduce a little bit more damage from maximized/empowered igms than it does to a normal one and most importantly it stacks with flat dr.

Before Headband was buffed with force damage immunity and spell immunity, it was barely used. In my opinion it was more meta-related than an actually case of bad item. I dont think the spell immunity or the force DR are even the reason it's popular again. The reason it's popular again is because after several years of dex builds being bad, they began being good again roughly when rogue was gives more feats and cloth armors became +4. Now Balagarn is more relevant than before that because it targets dexers, and thus items with enough SR to block potions and scrolls are more valuable. We've also had a lot more loremasters since the 25 fighter 5 wm got nuked from orbit and now people slap loremaster on it, so we have even more WoF scroll spammers than before, another reason why SR items raise in popularity to a point this helmet now feels like a tax.

It really has little to nothing to do with the lvl 1 spell immunity imo.

I'm also going to say that even tho I wear it on all my characters, I still usually get mord + wof by a loremaster and the wof goes through almost always. Not sure if the helmet is as broken op as portrayed in this thread, but it does feel like a tax imo, none the less.

[Coolguy McMagic]

It really has little to nothing to do with the lvl 1 spell immunity imo.

That is exactly my point. The spell immunity is completely unnecessary. The item is already very strong. There is no need it also needs to completely invalidate cantrips as backup damage source for already underperforming classes.

[AstralUniverse]

It really has little to nothing to do with the lvl 1 spell immunity imo.

That is exactly my point. The spell immunity is completely unnecessary. The item is already very strong. There is no need it also needs to completely invalidate cantrips as backup damage source for already underperforming classes.

I dont know man. I've listed the reasons why I think it's very good for many people, but it doesnt mean the item is overpowered. Blocking cantrips is a pretty neat property. I mean, they're cantrips, they shouldnt ever be good in lvl 30 pvp except the one with temp hp I guess. Besides, do you actually need to hit the spell in order to charge up arcane flux? I thought just casting, hit or miss, is enough.

[Coolguy McMagic]

It really has little to nothing to do with the lvl 1 spell immunity imo.

That is exactly my point. The spell immunity is completely unnecessary. The item is already very strong. There is no need it also needs to completely invalidate cantrips as backup damage source for already underperforming classes.

I dont know man. I've listed the reasons why I think it's very good for many people, but it doesnt mean the item is overpowered. Blocking cantrips is a pretty neat property. I mean, they're cantrips, they shouldnt ever be good in lvl 30 pvp except the one with temp hp I guess. Besides, do you actually need to hit the spell in order to charge up arcane flux? I thought just casting, hit or miss, is enough.

I don't think the item is overpowered, I just think it's really lame that cantrips are practically unusable in PVP for non-infinicasters while other caster classes with infinite spells or refunds can just spam much more powerful spells.

It's an unncessary nerf to an already weak damage tool of an already weak(er) subset of class. It's like if the most popular armors in the game also gave additional damage resistance against whips or something.

[Naghast]

Honestly entire swathes of builds shouldn't need to build around a single item due to an incredibly cheap readily available potion that will invalidate their entire build.

I know Balagorns is a left over from the days of when dexers were live lords and monk ac could stack with divine shield and make some pretty obnoxious AC numbers, but that simply isn't the case anymore. The meta has changed massively in recent years, there's people running around able to touch attack almost anything, new spells targetted at low strength builds, high strength + true strike dominates in PvP and there's instant attacks that, although disadvantaged, ignore epic dodge.

There really shouldn't be a spell that can be spammed constantly from a potion that can turn an entire engagement on it's head because you decided to go for dex and not strength. The trade off for dex builds versus strength already exists. You do considerably less damage at a bonus of being somewhat more survivable. That's enough of a trade off. I really don't see why balagorns should even exist as a spammable potion at this point, it doesn't solve any problems with the actual class that has always historically been the root issue with dex builds coughs Monk - (that also still hit like a truck compared to almost all other dex builds, with all their extra bonus class + item damage), due to their innate SR. All it does is make people fed up with playing dex builds full stop because once someone is in the know every engagement just turns intil "Let's mords/reduce the SR and then spam balagorns until you fail, get dropped and take a double crit from a WM/Spellsword/Summon".

PvP in Arelith is literally decided most of the time by level 1-2 spells in potions. It's who can chug the most true strikes, or who can knock you down with Balagorns. Please, for the love of all that is holy, can we address this incredible lameness in some way once and for all? We shouldn't have a system where such low level and readily available spells are more effective & glaringly obnoxious in how dependant they have become, than most high tier spells.

I agree with that. Also, as a small reminder to mention as well:
Balagarns used to contest strength OR dexterity, whichever is higher. I wouldn't mind if it returned to that.

Currently, da HONK is a reliable way to KD not only dexers, but also casters in general. That's not one but TWO archetypes that are extremely vulnerable to... a potionable spell. A lvl 2 spell that can just be put on a potion.

[Hazard]

Balagarns used to contest strength OR dexterity, whichever is higher. I wouldn't mind if it returned to that.

I didn't know that, but that sounds great. Let's do that.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

After reading everyone's replies, I see no compelling reason to LEAVE AS IS (other than less work for devs) for lvl 1 spell immunity. I do think the immunity to cantrips is a bit of a bummer. At caster lvl 27 (and some nerds are foolishly pure) an auto empowered 1d6 cantrip (with appropiate specialist school) averages out at 47.25 per cantrip (no save for half/none) which is 94.5 in a round. This will not win you a pvp, but it's not nothing in a drawn out battle where you are running out of slots and they are running out of sobriety with healing potions. If for some awful reason someone is playing a 30 conj specialist meme (for the most powerful planar conduit in the game and all summon 9s auto being mono elementals with crippling tradeoffs of no disc, like casting haste, no timestop or greater sanctuary). that ends up being 105 damage per round at no spell slot cost, no saves... assuming you were already hasted or had at least auto quicken 1 of course. That argument is probably more valid in a Evocation specialist (which i again advise playing against).

Should we recommend players play specialist? probably not. But there is no need to further punish them when lvl 1 spell immunity doesn't really help outside of said niche either. It does kind of irk me knowing that gives cantrip immunity, but I understand it might not be worth the squeeze to fix. But if we could make the change with no effort at all, it seems to me the pros outweigh the con as there is no real con for removing it.

[Biolab00]

I'm not certain on whether removing Spell immunity towards 1st level spell is a good thing or a bad thing because balancing often requires removing something and adding on something.
Sure, the Devs can remove Spell immunity towards 1st level spell and not put anything back as replacement but, it stands a possibility that something esle might just be added to replace that if it's approved somehow.

And, most PVPs are so chaotic that it usually doesn't last to the point whereby you're left with just Cantrips. I can hardly believe that you will face a battle with all your spells exhausted and, if it happens that you met a hostile group that attempts to PVP you while you're left with no spell slot or almost getting zero while in a dungeon, you can always choose to escape.

I'm not certain on other players but as a tactful wizard/sorcerer, I'll always keep either one cast of Timestop or Greater Sanctuary available to escape and lens out in case of any hostiles even if i've no more cast of any other offensive spells.

And...i've edited the post to add this sentence that is very popular in Arelith....when bad things happen to good adventurer.