Removing Outcast and Pirate Tags

[Second Breakfast]

I am of the mind that tags for Outcasts and Dread Pirates ought to be wholly removed.

The reason for why I think this is because I believe both have contributed in part to a gamification of the server, and it stymies roleplay that would otherwise exist around investigation and discovery.

A settlement that I'll not mention the name of recently forbade outcasts, and I was unable to get a satisfactory answer as to why in character, or even what an 'outcast' is. Why would any city know about, let alone care, about something a player character did on a country in the mainland or in the island's distant past? Is there some sort of universal brand that all these various cultures use to identify the especially bad ones? People are described as being outcasts, and yet others are unable to describe what crimes they've committed either here or elsewhere... because they do not know, and because they do not know, it's less about what they did and more that they're on the other team.

If they're affiliated with Andunor, why can't they simply be known for that? If they're necromancers who animate the dead, why cannot they be known for that? Neither of those things require a tag, because they can be discovered through observation of the character in question or through investigation.

The same can honestly be said of Dread Pirates. Why have the tattoos visible to non-pirates? Why have the tag visible to all? How can everybody just recognize these obscure Eastern Promises-style pirate tattoos, no matter who they are and where they came from? How does one identify pirates? I don't know, how about you look at those who are on-board a pirate ship and going around, sinking people?

Having these tags only serve to discourage investigation of bad guys, and so we rush instead to PvP, going down a checklist to see who are acceptable targets instead of trying to learn who is a bad guy and what they've done before they're taken down. The build-up to PvP is important. The roleplay leading up to PvP is important. If everyone is walking around with a visible badge that signals to some they're open season? Well, that's no longer a fight of Good vs. Evil, it's just Alliance vs. Horde.

[Royal Blood]

If I am wrong about this please correct me but I believe the purpose of putting the outcast tag on characters was to force consequences of being an outcast. I believe too many players were using it to gain access to the UD portals while not roleplaying as an outcast.

That's my understanding. I'm not sure there is a good solution that fixes both aspects that both offers discretion without opening it to abuse. Only thought would be to clearly define outcast behavior and simply removing the tag from those who aren't using it appropriately. But even then it's a matter of opinion to a degree that might be like a nightmare to enforce.

I don't recall what brought about the pirate inking or its relevance or why it is required. It's kind of like the radiant heart symbols I guess but one gets you killed and the other doesn't.

[Paint]

I've got words about outcast and pirate tags, but as for the outcast system and why you might not be allowed on surface settlements, that's on you, the roleplayer, to decide.

If you take the outcast tag for the benefits and penalties it imparts, and refuse to elaborate on why that character is an outcast, you're the one doing poor roleplay. There are warnings before you take the outcast status in game, and a description of them on the wiki. Instead of trying to subvert the systems that you've agreed to engage with, maybe engage with them instead. The mechanics of these systems might not always translate 1:1 to roleplay, and it's up to individual roleplayers to fill in the gaps.

If you don't like the outcast system, don't make outcasts. Simple as.

My opinion on pirate tags is that they're basically meaningless these days, and being a dread pirate is almost comically unnoteworthy in most of the settlements unless there's a big war going on. If pirate tags meant more, I might complain more, but right now, unless you've gone through the steps to make a name for yourself, most people shrug at dread pirate tattoos outside of like, Cordor, I guess.

So then to the other side of this to be more productive, examining someone and knowing they're an outcast immediately, even if you've never met them is strange. The implication of the dread pirate tag is a little more acceptable, as there is an in-game tattoo system that requires a lore check to pass. If they have the right tattoos, they're a dread pirate. Except. Well. H-how are you seeing those tattoos if they're fully covered? Or in disguise? Is it impossible to cover those tattoos up where they might show up at the edges of your sleeves with makeup? There are ways to roleplay around this, but it's awkward. Do you know the name of every outcast? Is there a registry of notorious individuals on Arelith? Do outcasts not deserve anonymity? When does an evil necromancer who's been running amok on the surface of Arelith (who didn't start as an outcast) end up becoming an outcast? Where is the threshold? Where is the line?

How do you get around knowing what someone is without knowing who they are? Why would I know someone is an infamous criminal, or perpetrator of some abysmal evil, but not know their name? I think we all know that the systems could use work, but getting rid of them entirely would mean less enforceable penalties for outcasts and pirates, and in a game where you can get your disguise up to a certain number and waltz through settlements unimpeached as an outcast who is normally forbidden from entering, cause no drama on the surface or in the underdark, and never gain notoriety through RP enough to have consequences from other characters, I really object to the removal of those tags. They incentivize you, the RPer, to roleplay in certain ways, and to avoid certain places unless you've prepared to be there. That's their intent. That's what they do.

So for now if your character is an outcast, just own the tag, man. If your character is engaging with outcasts due to some moral complaint or some duty your character has as a guard, and they refuse to play along, just hit 'em with the, "You know why." Then, if an outcast refuses to RP with you, you can always just PVP them.

[Second Breakfast]

I have an outcast (though I am not playing her as actively as I was prior), but this is not an argument born from "I lost, so now I make a post about it". I kind of resent the implication that this boils down to that, because that's reductive. Those who know me know I am not out to avoid consequences. This isn't about avoidance of consequences at all. I am fine with being a villain on that character, and owning it. I am fine with being notorious.

I would much prefer it if I was notorious for what I did, instead of being an "outcast", because that is term is utterly meaningless and conveys nothing from an in-character perspective. When characters are reduced to labels, that ultimately only strips them of their worth and value. What they've done is no longer of importance, only that they have a 'brand' and are therefore bad.

[Twohand]

I dislike outcast and pirate tags. I believe things were better and more natural when they were not a thing.

[Drogo Gyslain]

If not completely removed, they should be reworked so that they aren't so blatant and apparent. Have them appear in the details as something more befitting what they are, a brand or a tattoo. Something that would show the affiliation but doesn't blatantly say "This person is a Dread Pirate".

The description or something would be sufficient.

"This person has the tattoo of a Sparrow at Sunrise over the open sea." - Captain Jack Sparrow's wrist tattoo.

It doesn't have to be so blatant, outright and in your face "This person is an outcast." We can make it more subtle, a bit more FOIG rather than just being give straight OOC notification that this person is an outcast. Having to know the tattoos descriptions and interprit them in game would be a good comprimise. The check could be a spot check to see the tattoos and you get the description of the tattoo (if visible out from under cover).

That's the other thing, we've been going back and forth in other strings and threads about how cover should cover tattoos and make them unseeable... Why is that not mechanical yet?

-cover state can show us wether certain parts of our body are covered or not. How much would it be to cover those tattoos so they CANT be seen. Because unless the -cover state = False, depending on where a pirate or outcasts tattoo is, mechanically it should be impossible to see when certain covers are present. Yet currently, it's still the case that if someone simply makes the lorecheck on a pirate, they automatically know.

[Xerah]

It’s really up to the player of the outcast to decide. If you don’t know why they would be an outcast, then that’s on them. I’ve always written in my description of why I was an outcast—the rules are that you’re known to have done bad things, so tell people what those things were. If you haven’t thought about then you probably shouldn’t be playing one unless the rules around them change.

[Marsi]

If I am wrong about this please correct me but I believe the purpose of putting the outcast tag on characters was to force consequences of being an outcast. I believe too many players were using it to gain access to the UD portals while not roleplaying as an outcast.

Yeah. This is how I remember it. Outcasts were super-privileged PCs who could go anywhere and be anyone they wanted. I remember being slightly put off by the update, and there is probably still a better solution, but the problem was very real.

[Eyeliner]

I think the dread pirate tats are partially symbolic to represent their aura and reputation. They can cover them up, but a dread pirate is a well-known celebrity with other identifiable features so that's not enough to hide who they are.

Key difference between them and outcast is also that the Sencliff writs are voluntary. You could stay a "recruit" at level 30 if you wish and only other pirates and super-spotters might know you have tats. That probably won't make you too popular on Sencliff, but you don't have to aspire to be a dread pirate even if playing a pirate character

Outcasts arrive as big bad villains who are also level 3, which is a bit odd but I don't know how you'd change it without changing the way the community operates as well. I mean I'd love it if outcasts had to perform evil acts against surface settlements to earn their status but there's a dozen reasons why that won't work here.

[Royal Blood]

I have an outcast (though I am not playing her as actively as I was prior), but this is not an argument born from "I lost, so now I make a post about it". I kind of resent the implication that this boils down to that, because that's reductive. Those who know me know I am not out to avoid consequences. This isn't about avoidance of consequences at all. I am fine with being a villain on that character, and owning it. I am fine with being notorious.

I would much prefer it if I was notorious for what I did, instead of being an "outcast", because that is term is utterly meaningless and conveys nothing from an in-character perspective. When characters are reduced to labels, that ultimately only strips them of their worth and value. What they've done is no longer of importance, only that they have a 'brand' and are therefore bad.

For your second part the best way to do this now is to begin as a regular surfacer and become infamous enough then request an outcast token. To my understanding it is not easily given out.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

I have an outcast (though I am not playing her as actively as I was prior), but this is not an argument born from "I lost, so now I make a post about it". I kind of resent the implication that this boils down to that, because that's reductive. Those who know me know I am not out to avoid consequences. This isn't about avoidance of consequences at all. I am fine with being a villain on that character, and owning it. I am fine with being notorious.

I would much prefer it if I was notorious for what I did, instead of being an "outcast", because that is term is utterly meaningless and conveys nothing from an in-character perspective. When characters are reduced to labels, that ultimately only strips them of their worth and value. What they've done is no longer of importance, only that they have a 'brand' and are therefore bad.

For your second part the best way to do this now is to begin as a regular surfacer and become infamous enough then request an outcast token. To my understanding it is not easily given out.

I was denied twice recently and I still play in Andunor just fine

honestly I don't like the outcast tag anyway but it seemed fitting so I tried for it.

[AstralUniverse]

Why is it not very easy to get an outcast tag in game from a DM? I never tried but thought it should be easy if your character gets tossed out of surface towns left and right.

Anyway I too was under the impression that these tags exist to impose consequences on the otherwise "normal surface characters who can access portals in Andunour and get a free language for no award invested" because they havent been doing it enough themselves. I remember times where you just couldnt ever tell someone is an outcast unless they go ahead and tell you to your face and frankly it didnt make much sense or went in line with the spirit of the Outcast background. Since then tho, more systems have been changed to interact with Outcasts differently. I dont know if these tags make much difference but the fact some npcs on the surface wont interact with outcasts (especially some boat sailors like Laurik iirc) and that Outcast cant get quarters in surface cities is quite a trade-off.

[Second Breakfast]

If I am wrong about this please correct me but I believe the purpose of putting the outcast tag on characters was to force consequences of being an outcast. I believe too many players were using it to gain access to the UD portals while not roleplaying as an outcast.

Yeah. This is how I remember it. Outcasts were super-privileged PCs who could go anywhere and be anyone they wanted. I remember being slightly put off by the update, and there is probably still a better solution, but the problem was very real.

Well, I mean, people do that now -- they just don't take Outcast.

I cannot speak for how things were before, but I can tell you that being an Outcast is kind of a bum deal. You get the UD portals, and Undercommon for free, but you can spend a Normal award and get the latter. Slaves get the portals, and no tag, and from an outsider looking in? It doesn't seem that hard to lose the collar.

[Royal Blood]

Yeah but I think we're at the stage now where we as players have to decide to be better even if the mechanical like systems are vulnerable to being taken advantage of. That's how we ended up with this system in the first place cause people weren't using the old system as it was intended.

I recall seeing staff members remark that people making slaves with the intention of claiming portals would have consequences plus, FOIG but the collar removal is a bit of a chore. Also, slaves often get treated as outcast especially if they're a UD slave.

I agree the outcast labeling isn't like ideal, but its more ideal than the way the system worked before.

I do agree too that there's a weird like idk how to say it, but it's very easy to spend a normal reward and get outcast. But it seems very hard to get an outcast token if you didn't premake yourself as an outcast?

Ultimately though I think of the like mechanical RP systems that are in need of reconsideration, in my opinion, this one would be more minor in comparison to others like the assassination system. But with the suggestion forum closed and the devs doing their own projects, there's no space for feedback to be taken in a constructive manner.

The best to offer here is like an explanation for why it is the way it is now and making the best of it.

[Arienette]

The idea behind the Outcast tag is that your character has done something Really Really Bad off-screen, bad enough that the consequences of this have followed you.

When a character IC refers somehow refers to your Outcastedness, I do not think it is appropriate to respond with “what are you even talking about, how would you even know that?”

A more appropriate reaction would be something like “Ah, I see my reputation has followed me even here.” Give the other person something to work with.

When I played an Outcast human, he was a necromancer PM. His back-story is that many many years ago he had run a bit wild experimenting on corpses he had dug up in the lands between Cordor and Bendir Dale. When confronted, I would drop hints to this effect to give the other guy something to go on.

[Kuma]

When I played an Outcast human, he was a necromancer PM. His back-story is that many many years ago he had run a bit wild experimenting on corpses he had dug up in the lands between Cordor and Bendir Dale. When confronted, I would drop hints to this effect to give the other guy something to go on.

This here's a great example, imo, for why I don't take outcast any more.

The more enjoyable story can be had in doing this on the surface and then being driven below in course of play, rather than before level 3.

That said, without any outcasts in the UD, you risk thinning their numbers to the point they aren't accepted by your common or garden UDer, which we have decided must be the case with Andunor.

Tricky situation.

[satan]

Once you lose the collar you can no longer use the hub portal. You can still use it as a destination tho

[The GrumpyCat]

Once you lose the collar you can no longer use the hub portal. You can still use it as a destination tho

I THINK (stress this I could be wrong) that it depends what type of slave you are?
If you make a slave from creation then some things carry over, even if you get rid of the collar. I seem to think that even Laurik's boat still won't take you.

If you get collared in game, and loose it later I... believe you loose all privilages/can use Laurik's boat again.

Speaking historically, outcasts were given the tag for the reasons above - the concept of an outcast is a human that's been driven out of the surface world. Visiting the surface- whilst most certainly more possible than for a drow or the like, should still be a fairly risky affair. But outcasts were very rarely under any particular risk, and people couldn't roleplay that aspect because no one really knew on the surface.

So we added the tag, so that the roleplay could actually occur. Which isn't to say we neccesarly wanted all outcasts to be Kill On Sight or anything, just that perhaps they shouldn't be best bousum buddies with every single surface character they meet.

And to be clear, the tag SUCKS.

But it was the best and quickest outcome that was used at the time.

I hope a better solution comes along eventually.

[AstralUniverse]

And to be clear, the tag SUCKS.

Here's a wild idea. Maybe outcasts, or really anyone who is defined in the setting as underdarker, shouldnt be allowed to use certain key portals on the surface, for example the Nexus falls, exit portal in the arcane tower, exit portal in Cordor, Soulhaven etc. Introduce real mechanical consequences instead of these clownish tags who dont really mean anything except "Oh you evil foul mean person, I heard your name in a gossip tale and I know you did something bad... what did you do, again?". Some would say it's a way to meta-game someone by asking them to use a portal, but that's easily reportable, and it goes both ways, underdarkers could always do it to meta-game surfacers anyway.

[satan]

Why not feat tax it? If you wanna be able to spot outcasts and pirates etc create a new feat that allows you to lore check. Then at least only people with that special knowledge (local policing?) Could make the checks. So not just anyone could magically know..just people that have studied that

[Choofed]

Once you lose the collar you can no longer use the hub portal. You can still use it as a destination tho

I THINK (stress this I could be wrong) that it depends what type of slave you are?
If you make a slave from creation then some things carry over, even if you get rid of the collar. I seem to think that even Laurik's boat still won't take you.

If you get collared in game, and loose it later I... believe you loose all privilages/can use Laurik's boat again.

Speaking historically, outcasts were given the tag for the reasons above - the concept of an outcast is a human that's been driven out of the surface world. Visiting the surface- whilst most certainly more possible than for a drow or the like, should still be a fairly risky affair. But outcasts were very rarely under any particular risk, and people couldn't roleplay that aspect because no one really knew on the surface.

So we added the tag, so that the roleplay could actually occur. Which isn't to say we neccesarly wanted all outcasts to be Kill On Sight or anything, just that perhaps they shouldn't be best bousum buddies with every single surface character they meet.

And to be clear, the tag SUCKS.

But it was the best and quickest outcome that was used at the time.

I hope a better solution comes along eventually.

Can I recommend the following:

• Make recognising an outcast, like dread pirate tattoos, a lore check. These should easier the higher level they are, so a level 3 outcast is a nobody and only someone with lore 100 is 'aware' of the background of the character. A level 30, the DC is probably just 25 or something, because they'll be a max level high power and thus notable big baddie.

• Make the outcast tag viewable by underdark races. So a dude who's picked up the notoriety of eating people doesn't have to then prove himself to drow when his outcastiness has allowed him to start in andunor.

• Make people have to set text with their outcast tag. We know these can be adaptable texts under the stats because they work on manacles. With people able to enter their own text, they could tell players what they learn from their past.

An example.

---

Dread pirate tattoos should stay. You literally are covered in pirate tattoos, they're not any random tattoo either, they are part of specifically Sencliff's Dread Pirates. Not a random swallow.

[The GrumpyCat]

Make recognising an outcast, like dread pirate tattoos, a lore check. These should easier the higher level they are, so a level 3 outcast is a nobody and only someone with lore 100 is 'aware' of the background of the character. A level 30, the DC is probably just 25 or something, because they'll be a max level high power and thus notable big baddie.

Make the outcast tag viewable by underdark races. So a dude who's picked up the notoriety of eating people doesn't have to then prove himself to drow when his outcastiness has allowed him to start in andunor.

Make people have to set text with their outcast tag. We know these can be adaptable texts under the stats because they work on manacles. With people able to enter their own text, they could tell players what they learn from their past.

I don't think the second point would fly, because I think that makes it too difficult for surfacers to enter Andunor. At the least, that's generally been the argument prior. Possibly a Lore check for the Underdarkers too sure? Or some other skill check

I really like the the part about having some text to enter from their past. I think that should perhaps be something that should be done at character creation.

One thing to consider with it though, however exactly its implemented, is whether to do it as a 'You have to type something here' or a set of options to pick from.

I like the idea of the freedom of writing whatever, I'm sure in theory most of us do. But the customisable ones would require more Dm enforcement/work, for fear people would either go super edgelord, or 'not actually an outcast at all'

[D4wN]

Having wanted posters for each outcast created or a register with the surface settlements would be neat. So you know the 'type' of outcast they are.

Anyway, it makes sense being such a huge criminal you're more a monster living in Andunor than amongst "normal" civilisation. When I made an outcast he had his background story where he earnt it and I had someone who knew him IG to help boost that story. But I also worked hard to earn that infamy after the fact.

I think a reputation system could be really cool though? I don't know how that would work mechanically, but if you could earn fame/infamy through in game actions for example. Like how you earn pirate tattoos by shooting at and boarding Cordorian vessels and killing everyone on it. Maybe you could earn an outcast or hero status the same way by doing a bunch of quests to earn this. Kinda like RRD games etc where you can earn or lose points based on decisions made and actions taken.

No idea how that would be implemented and no doubt people would find a way to abuse it, but I'd love something like that.

[Drogo Gyslain]

I like the idea of the freedom of writing whatever, I'm sure in theory most of us do. But the customisable ones would require more Dm enforcement/work, for fear people would either go super edgelord, or 'not actually an outcast at all'

Make it character limited. something like 60 characters. Something that allows for personal creativity but would limit something ultra edgelord. Admittedly people can get really creative with 60 characters or whatever the limit is, but it would be the middle ground between personalization and the mechanical automation we have now.

[Choofed]

I don't think the second point would fly, because I think that makes it too difficult for surfacers to enter Andunor. At the least, that's generally been the argument prior. Possibly a Lore check for the Underdarkers too sure? Or some other skill check

Yeah lore check for the underdarkers works too, I can see the downsides and the upsides. It's notable that it's a trade city, that the person if they don't know them may just be a less notable criminal, and so on.

If people start getting harassed for not being nasty enough, or not having a reputation for being nasty, I can see there being roleplay oppertunities of them proving their 'right' to be there. Initiations are cool.

The hubmaster ultimately has a say, he could just note 'please don't kill people just because they didn't explode an old peoples home'.

I really like the the part about having some text to enter from their past. I think that should perhaps be something that should be done at character creation.

One thing to consider with it though, however exactly its implemented, is whether to do it as a 'You have to type something here' or a set of options to pick from.

I like the idea of the freedom of writing whatever, I'm sure in theory most of us do. But the customisable ones would require more Dm enforcement/work, for fear people would either go super edgelord, or 'not actually an outcast at all'

I love the idea of giving people freedom, but I think a big list may ultimately be the better option now you say it. Notably, the new character experience for the underdark outcast start should hammer in you're a outcast and have done something vile or are vile a little more. I can totally see people being like "I'm an outcast because my parents didn't approve my marriage."

There's nothing stopping us opening a big submissions thread for character limit provided 'outcast tags' that we occasionally add onto.