Hood Checks

[Beary Nice]

As the title goes, and as you may or may not be aware, there is something called a "hood check" or "hood checkpoint", on Arelith.

What this means is that (usually) at the gates of a city, there will be a group of characters who will ask you to take off your hood to see your face.

What this actually means, in practice, is this: there is a little-known mechanic on this server, wherein if you alter your appearance in any way - including lowering your hood - the SAME person inspecting your disguise will have a second chance at rolling their Spot against your Disguise, bypassing the cooldown.

In essence, this means that the Godsave that could conceal your identity will be on cooldown after the first, and then you will not have it for the second inspection.

My complaint with this very recent addition to server culture is this:

We have been told by DMs that you cannot use someone's head model to say who they are if you do not break their disguise. Given that that is the case, if it was not for the sake of leveraging a workaround to gain a mechanical advantage, it would serve no purpose.

It is a transparent and painfully OOC tactic that is used to circumvent the god-save system, and in my opinion it should either be discouraged, ruled against, or the way that inspecting disguises should be looked at again.

[Choofed]

So when we're saying "Cities" here you mean Cordor. Cordor does this. Lots of people associate me with hoodchecks so I think I should respond to this with my thoughts on the disguise system and why I think this is okay.

First, the elephant in the room, the disguise system.

What does the disguise system truly represent? The wiki tells us just an active attempt to disguise as other people but apart from the gamey mechanics of head models what's this meant to represent in the real world?

Because surprise here, it's exceptionally hard to pretend to be someone else in person unless you're their literal identical twin, especially with people who already know your face. Spy movies love the trope of a wig apparently changing your identity but the reality of the matter is that if someone already knows who you are they're going to pick up real quick exactly who you are. While it may make you match a altered passport, pretending to be someone you're not to someone who already knows you is hard. But we find ourselves where we handwave it often with "Some magic" and thus a person who's 127maxing bluff can stand infront of you and supernaturally pretend to be someone else.

Hoods as they stand represent a different approach when you're using the full cover system. This isn't movie makeup magic, this is you entirely covering yourself and denying people the features to observe not altering the features to decieve. They are entirely different observations, using entirely different datasets.

It's not an OOC mechanic, its testing your enhanced cover check then vs your deception check. You're employing two different strategies in this situation.

We have been told by DMs that you cannot use someone's head model to say who they are if you do not break their disguise. Given that that is the case, if it was not for the sake of leveraging a workaround to gain a mechanical advantage, it would serve no purpose.

I disagree here entirely. Because, very simply, drow. It may sound bad, but yes - picking out purple/bluegrey coloured elves on their skin colour tends to be an exceptionally effective way of catching drow at these checkpoints.

We literally caught a drow last night.

What this means is that (usually) at the gates of a city, there will be a group of characters who will ask you to take off your hood to see your face.

Realistically, if you are attempting to be sneaky and disguise yourself walking through a checkpoint and getting inspected by a condensed group of spot bots by entering the main gate of a city is - honestly - a player skill issue. Every city on this server has multiple entrances, and going through high density high policing sectors is something you must consider as a player.

I've now had the luxury of being on both sides of this. I can say with certainty, I never got my bluff check popped when I just avoided not walking through high density areas within cities.

Player skill and strategy in this matters. Much like in real life, it's possible for a hollywood actor to go incognito in a store they're going to struggle against a line of paparazzi.

My opinion here

The system is working fine. If you're getting tested on advanced cover checks, which are enabling you to disguise race, because you're in the middle of a checkpoint that's sort of a player strategy issue. If a city does not want you to wear hoods and your intention is to go incognito, I exceptionally recommend not wearing hoods to avoid guard attention.

[Hazard]

Stuff.

Yep.

Stuff.

Nah.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

there's other ways around hood checks, too. i've been dodging hood checks for years

[Yvesza]

We're missing a lot of spells (Alter self, so on) that would allow a person to convincingly be someone else.
I'd absolutely argue that any competent disguise would include them, else the system starts to fall apart.

I do have an issue with hood removal allowing a second fresh roll though, that part is goofy.

I wouldn't say IDing a drow was head model, the moment they drop cover they show as drow on examine. It's nothing to do with the model really, right?

[Drogo Gyslain]

Here's the thing...

Even in the real world, "Hood checks" were a thing.

"PAPERS, PLEASE!"

This is not a new concept, and is being done completely within the rp with the available mechanics.

Honestly, it does change someone's appearance greatly when you pull a hood down and reveal features obscured. You are in every definition, uncovering them. Revealing them to the light and getting a second examination under new light to reassess someone.

Does it feel a bit scuzzy? Yea, it can be hamfisted rp and poorly done, but when is it ever?

But, if the cordor guard wants to run Gestapo style border checks, that is their player run response to piracy, sneaks and thieves.

So don't take it out on the forums...

Organize an in game resistance. Pick a pocket. Write ic letters. Taunt the guards. Bash a sign.

Be a roleplayer. Handle the situation the way your character would. Are you gonna tuck that tail? Get better at sneaking? Go around and use one of a dozen other entrances to the city?

You have options.

edit: At the same time, Guard rpers? You're not the California State Troopers out there. You are adventurers as much as we are. I can't count the number of times I've seen a high-spot team just standing at the gate "LOWER YOUR HOOD! LOWER YOUR HOOD!"

I would give the feedback there... RP Better. Give reasons, have actual conversations, be lenient. There is no in game mechanism to repel someone from a settlement. There are no 'walking licenses' that automatically bar anyone from an area or designate persona-non-grata outside of the exile system.

So Roleplay it. "Oh, the palace guard caught Jake the Thief in the King's Bedchamber trying to steal Edward Cordor's Royal underpants. Now we're being told to guard the gates until His Royal Highness's underpants are found." or whatever reason you want to give. The point is, make it engaging.

Noone wants to just be stopped at the gate by a bunch of Maxxed spotters just to be shouted down until they lower their hood with no options. It doesn't matter if they are a greenhorn pirate or the most respected Sembian Merchant.

Make it more engaging than a Traffic Stop.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

Here's the thing...

Even in the real world, "Hood checks" were a thing.

"PAPERS, PLEASE!"

This is not a new concept, and is being done completely within the rp with the available mechanics.

Honestly, it does change someone's appearance greatly when you pull a hood down and reveal features obscured. You are in every definition, uncovering them. Revealing them to the light and getting a second examination under new light to reassess someone.

Does it feel a bit scuzzy? Yea, it can be hamfisted rp and poorly done, but when is it ever?

But, if the cordor guard wants to run Gestapo style border checks, that is their player run response to piracy, sneaks and thieves.

So don't take it out on the forums...

Organize an in game resistance. Pick a pocket. Write ic letters. Taunt the guards. Bash a sign.

Be a roleplayer. Handle the situation the way your character would. Are you gonna tuck that tail? Get better at sneaking? Go around and use one of a dozen other entrances to the city?

You have options.

best response.

[Hazard]

I think the primary concern the OP had was to do with the godsave issue they mentioned.

Infact, I don't see anything in their post about anything other than the godsave.

[Drogo Gyslain]

So the godsave did its job then.

Then something happened to trump the godsave.

Maybe the conversation we need to be having is what do we do to get rid of Godsaves or the reliance on them.

You're never going to win 100% of the battles you fight. You're never going to get 100% of the contests you put in on.

So you know what your counter is? If that's the mechanical system?

Don't lower your hood.

Walk away. Talk it out. Argue with them. Fight the system.

Thats the counter. Stop relying on a mechanical system to make you 100% bulletproof if this is truly only about the Godsave alone, and accept the reality that you can't fight everything.

Roleplay it.

[Beary Nice]

So the godsave did its job then.

Then something happened to trump the godsave.

Maybe the conversation we need to be having is what do we do to get rid of Godsaves or the reliance on them.

You're never going to win 100% of the battles you fight. You're never going to get 100% of the contests you put in on.

So you know what your counter is? If that's the mechanical system?

Don't lower your hood.

Walk away. Talk it out. Argue with them. Fight the system.

Thats the counter. Stop relying on a mechanical system to make you 100% bulletproof if this is truly only about the Godsave alone, and accept the reality that you can't fight everything.

Roleplay it.

This is a disingenuous and unnecessarily confrontational post.

This is not about "winning". For someone that is supposedly trying to put the emphasis on roleplay, and decrying "mechanics", it is a woefully one-sided post, given that this is specifically an unintended abuse of mechanics that you are defending. You speak as if the "thing that happened" after the godsave was spent is something that happened on its own; no. It is a conscious effort to bypass the system that is in place to prevent exactly that; one person being able to spam inspect a disguised person to gain subsequent attempts to break said disguise.

Very rarely are there a "group" of spotbots, and the hypothetical "127 bluff" strawman presented in this thread by Choofed is only likely to ever be countered by someone that has invested heavily into spot.

In my experience - and others - the one that beats the disguise in the end is the same person that triggered the godsave, not a band of merry men that all magically have the ability to break your disguise once the godsave is spent.

My point is specifically that there was a shift to this behavior right as it just-so happened to be mentioned OOCly that you could gain an extra roll of the disguise check without said godsave by having someone adjust their appearance, giving an unfair advantage, mechanically.

It seems that you have missed the point of this post. Can I roleplay around this? Sure. Should I have to? No.

[Xerah]

I’ve never had a character who lives in stealth/disguise/full cover.

Hood checks have always seemed like stick based roleplay. Stories are much more likely to come out of carrot based roleplay. I’ve avoided them as a player, if I’m involved in the cordor guard or not.

Some people mentioned “papers please”. For an example, get the leader/gov agents to issue “papers” and actually ask for those instead. Maybe they are give special papers that says they are an elevated member of society (because they are a wizard obv). This seems much more carrot based than hood checks to break disguises.

[MRFTW]

Yes, disguisers have a huge advantage because of their godsave and the OOC notification is that it's been used.

Yes, it is largely pointless playing a spotter if you want to break disguises. I know because I play one.

No, you shouldn't take that as carte blanche to exploit mechanics to break them.

[Kuma]

there is a little-known mechanic on this server, wherein if you alter your appearance in any way - including lowering your hood - the SAME person inspecting your disguise will have a second chance at rolling their Spot against your Disguise, bypassing the cooldown.

is this even true

[Drogo Gyslain]

I'm not being confrontational, I'm being realistic and supporting Roleplay over Mechanics.

Hoodchecks are scuzzy, they always will be. I don't like handing over my drivers license at a traffic stop as much as I hate having to pull my hood down in the middle of RP.

So I avoid it where I can. I use back doors, I get good at sneaking. I use my invisibility wand when I don't wanna be seen. I use alternate personas to make it past checkpoints and avoid detection, or cast off a blown persona. I take the backroads and pick up the extra few steps in between destinations and find an unexpected scene watching gnolls try to hijack a statue.

The point is not to get hung up on mechanics and people abusing mechanics, but to roleplay around those who would abuse the system and make it fun.

You SHOULD be roleplaying around the situation. Embarass the guards, call them names, evade detection, Do something fun! Try something new! or submit.

But it's not an invalid way to RP to conduct checkpoints.

Think of it like this. In Monty Python and the Holy Grail, the Lancelot approach scene to the Swamp castle, he's... yards and yards off. He's in full clothing, armor, hood and you can't tell who it is running at you. But as he gets closer, you can see the details start to come out.

Even as he gets right up on the guards, unless you KNOW that it was Lancelot, he's just a guy running at the gate with a sword.

Instead of stopping to announce himself, he runs in, stabs the guard, starts slaying everything in his path up the tower.

Would it have made ANY difference if he'd stopped and raised his visor and revealed "Oh, it's just John Cleese playing Lancelot." Did the story stop because he didn't stop to identify himself? No, and it continued into a heavily comical and dark-comedy end.

Its our job, as Roleplayers, to roleplay around things. If you don't like a mechanical disadvantage and people abusing it, find ways to address that. Because in reality, that's exactly how it works. As I outlined in my previous post, by lowering the hood, you get a fresh set of details, and it SHOULD proc a new review of the persons features because they've changed their appearance in a significant way by complying.

By Choosing to -hood and comply with the request, you've now uncovered yourself. The same happens if you die, your true identity is revealed, like a polymorphed Rahkshasa being unmasked or a Yuan-ti reverting.

It may not be fair, but it is the system we have to work with. And this conversation's been had before, years ago, and it's stayed the same.

So if you feel it's too much to roleplay that on a -roleplay- server, what's the adjustment?

Guards aren't allowed to guard? Hoodchecks be made bad RP? A Mechanical change to prevent excess spot checking?

What is the fair and balanced solution?

[Paint]

Simply enter Cordor through one of the many entrances not being covered.

Or start complaints about it in game. Or get a chancellor elected who'll abolish hood checks. Or idk, roleplay about it.

This is a problem that can be solved entirely in-character, and it's really not as much of a problem as people like to make it out to be. They're also currently a thing in literally one settlement on the entire server, so they're pretty easy to avoid if you want to.

Calling them bad RP because you don't like them is dumb, especially since things similar to hood checks have been a thing in real life for a very, very long time. But just to recount.

The hoodchecks right now are:
-Very avoidable.
-Present roleplay opportunities.
-Add challenge to a mechanic that's fairly easy to ignore otherwise.
-Require a lot of time on the part of the players doing them regularly.

I see people complain more about hoodchecks OOCly than I've ever seen actually attempt to do something about them ICly, and it's a little disappointing. What could be another avenue for rich conflict and political action and skullduggery is turned into a debate on whether or not it's 'fair,' oocly. Complain less. Roleplay more.

[Ad Astra]

Papers would be tight tbh. You could roleplay faking them for different disguises, like by disguising as the writer then noting in the paper [This is a forgery.] In the past, papers were a thing in the Underdark. I was once the Outcast human assigned to shepharding the Outcasts by the head of the Drow temple and it was pretty interesting. One fun thing about it in bad guy settings is it becomes a sort of villain card that says, "I belong here." New disguise? Whip out your villain card. "Ah yeah, you're one of us. Keep on moving, have a nice day."

I will say, hood checks are something you should encounter once then go "Not using the main entrance." In-fact, for your goals, hood checks are better than papers, especially if they involve a sketch of your face like the UD papers did.

Either way, there's pros and cons and ways to go about it. Papers can definitely provide some amusing roleplay opportunities, like a guy with six different sets for his disguises.

[Hazard]

. . .

. . .

Again. I think the OP's issue is that there is an exploit being abused.

I think people need to calm down and react to what is being said, and not react to what they think is being implied.

This conversation is not about whether hood checks are 'dumb' or not. It is about being able to bypass a cooldown that was (I assume) put in place for a reason.

[Paint]

Again. I think the OP's issue is that there is an exploit being abused.

I think people need to calm down and react to what is being said, and not react to what they think is being implied.

This conversation is not about whether hood checks are 'dumb' or not. It is about being able to bypass a cooldown that was (I assume) put in place for a reason.

If there is an exploit, it's pretty well obfuscated. As someone who's had to run hoodchecks in the past, I've seen people get in entire other disguises my character couldn't break before the disguise CD was up. Upon examining them, it gave me no chance to break their disguise.

Either way, I'm fine with treating the exploit as hypothetical.

As for heads, guards shouldn't be RPing as if seeing someone's face is similar to another means their disguise simply doesn't exist, but I'm betting folks are just assuming that's the case.

[Xerah]

Let's stop with calling it an exploit. If it works that way (I have no idea if it does at this point) it was specifically updated to be coded that way.

[AstralUniverse]

Seems like a cool feature to me. It gives some mechanical meaning to being hood checked, otherwise hood checks do nothing.

[Ad Astra]

Let's stop with calling it an exploit. If it works that way (I have no idea if it does at this point) it was specifically updated to be coded that way.

I'm willing to bet it wasn't and that's just how it works (if it does.) But assuming the purpose of hood checks is to perform an exploit is ridiculous, quite frankly. It screams with such distrust and paranoia for your fellow players you have to ask yourself how you actually function here.

As for similar appearances, blah, blah, blah, assuming hood checks are no way to identify someone is incredibly ignorant. Male, black hair, comb over, has a description under that cover that is the same exact one as a known criminal? Female elf, tiefling under that hood? We've had some trouble with a female elf tiefling lately who is good at putting on personas...gonna need to ask you to come in and talk to us in our office.

[Drogo Gyslain]

So what would you say to instead of forcing someone to stand at the gate and wait to be 'questioned' by the guards? Would that not give them enough time to start questioning the identiy of someone and start noticing what they could of someone when that cooldown expires and they get another spot-check on the hooded person? Is that also an abuse of mechanics? What about following them around town until the cooldown and noticing new details because you've been tailing them for 20 minutes?

Where's the difference in that. Because if the godsave is gone, the godsave is gone. so what's the argument then? You didn't drop the hood, the guards questioned you, and now they see that you're hiding something because you stood around talking or chatting or making excuses?

Because I know what your point is, the oc was focusing on the godsaves. So lets take the godsave out of the equation.

What would happen if there was no godsave? How would you handle the same situation of a hoodcheck, with no godsave?

Because unless that changes the entire interaction and it removes the -hood request, the answer would be the same, -hood or no -hood. The Godsave works as mechanically intended, and is only a temporary 1-off save.

And that's where I reference my entire point, where as roleplayers, it's our job to roleplay around the struggle. You have the option of avoiding the hoodchecks, or dealing with them in a number of ways. Godsaves should not be dictating RP, RP should take direction from Godsaves as a consequence, not a bullet-proof vest. It's not an exploit, it's just part of the experience.

Roleplay the results and the consequences, or the outcomes. You might enjoy the result.

[Choofed]

there is a little-known mechanic on this server, wherein if you alter your appearance in any way - including lowering your hood - the SAME person inspecting your disguise will have a second chance at rolling their Spot against your Disguise, bypassing the cooldown.

is this even true

It's not altering outfit in any ways, it's changing between full cover and not having full cover. There exists 2 checks if you are examined when fully covered, then examined uncovered afterwards. But only in the direction of "Fully covered" -> "Non-covered."

The nature of the checks is different, one is a seperate mechanic that entirely allowes you to hide your race. Both benefit from full bluff/perform investment, but cover checks also have a 'high floor' in which the DC can never be below... what I think is around 40.

To address others in the thread, I don't get why this is being portrayed as abuse, these are two seperate checks and are a defined coded mechanic. The fact that you are using two different strategies, hiding the features vs altering the features, is telling on the nature in which you approach this.

You would want to just go with a pure alteration approach on social infiltration because walking around dressed like a ninja is pretty conspicuous, but if a elf is scurrying around the underdark or drow in vice versa the full cover approach is clearly the way. And that's been represented in game, I set up in Cordor in August last year the hood checkpoints on my character because we had literal drow standing there all evening.

If you are putting yourself in situations where you are going to be examined over twice, because you're going to be asked to lower the hood, then by removing this you allow people to game the system by adopting full cover (considering full cover can be achieve by apparently braclets) up for when they get examined then immediately lowering them.

These are coded mechanics. There is no exploit.

[Royal Blood]

I think it's worth pointing out there are a lot of ways to get into Cordor. And the Hood Checks are cool in my opinion. It's neat RP opportunity but I don't quite understand why everyone gets so up in arms about pulling a hood down. It seems practical given circumstances and dangers.

If you want to infiltrate Cordor don't walk through the main gate.

That being said, regarding the mechanic, I think it's a clever IC way around the god save mechanic though I doubt that was the intention. Hood Checks have been there for years I believe, before you could even god save a disguise. Even still, I think it remains practical. And all indications so far suggest it's not an exploit but really just an understanding of the mechanics.

The godsave is a save, like that was a close one, not a walk into like an armed patrol and everyone can't recognize you.

[Scurvy Cur]

Tbh I think we should just remove the disguise godsave, or at the very least, remove the indication that it has been used.