Divine Champion Feedback thread

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Scurvy Cur
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Re: Divine Champion Feedback thread

Post by Scurvy Cur » Wed Oct 25, 2023 1:50 pm

Irongron wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2023 8:54 am

I'm not really at all well informed on the class, having never had inclination to play one in all my years.

Thematically it is rather woolly, and I always read it to be a class that grants better saves?

In any case we are so spoiled for choice now with charisma scaling divine classes.

The main selling point of the class has always been the AB/Damage steroid attached to divine wrath. The vanilla class is hard to justify, even with a +7 or +9 AB/Damage bonus, though, because it's attached to a 1/day ability. Accordingly, it was revised 6 or 7 years ago at this point to be a 2-3 minute buff on a 10 minute cooldown; a good change, but we briefly popularized 8 fighter/7 wm/15 CoT, which functioned much like every other WM out there, only with 7 additional damage and AB, so pretty much every wm took this class, as did a lot of other non-WM melee builds.

To deal with this, CoT was subsequently adjusted by reducing the magnitude of the bonus from +3/5/7/9 at CoT levels 5/10/15/20, to +1/2/3/4, but shortening the cooldown from 10 minutes to 5.

One of the big issues with this approach, though, is that you've only got two variables (AB/Damage output, and buff duration/uptime) to tinker with, and it tends to lead to situations where either CoT's bonuses are not high enough, and so you never take the class, or they're too high, and so you always take the class. The last change probably swung the class from the latter state to the former.


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Re: Divine Champion Feedback thread

Post by Kythana » Wed Oct 25, 2023 3:57 pm

Kenji wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2023 8:20 am
  1. Once per round, scoring a critical hit will...
    i. reduce the cooldown of Divine Wrath by X seconds while the ability is inactive.
    ii. increase the duration of Divine Wrath by X seconds while the ability is active.
    iii. X is dependent on the weapon's base threat range and critical multiplier
    • X = 5 for 20 x2 (fists, thrown weapons, clubs, etc)
    • X = 4 for 20 x3
    • X = 3 for 19-20 x2
    • X = 2 for 18-20 x2

I'm not really a fan of having yet another build that is required to take WM.

And since CoT is a prestige class too, the potential options seem really limiting.


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Re: Divine Champion Feedback thread

Post by Xerah » Wed Oct 25, 2023 4:16 pm

Setting it up based by gods would be pretty cool but that's a lot of work.

Could do abilities set based on patron and aspects (6 different options) so each god would get 2 of the 6. The tricky thing is to balance them between them all so that there's not a best choice. The best way to get around this is to have more flavour abilities rather than + dmg/ab/save/discipline/etc. That's not a main draw of the class, but RP wise, it gives you a bit more feeling of tying the class to the god choice.

Katernin Bersk, Chancellor of Divination; Kerri Amblecrown, Paladin of Milil; Xull'kacha Auvry'rae, Redcap Fey-pacted; Sadia yr Thuravya el Bhirax, Priestess of Umberlee; Lissa Whitehorn, Archmage of Artifice

Wrips
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Re: Divine Champion Feedback thread

Post by Wrips » Wed Oct 25, 2023 7:00 pm

Kenji wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2023 8:20 am

Disregard the Divine Intervention part of the post. Lore-wise, it is a rare occurrence, and the team will plan a different feature for Divine Champion.

Preview on the first wave of coming changes:

  1. Once per round, scoring a critical hit will...
    i. reduce the cooldown of Divine Wrath by X seconds while the ability is inactive.
    ii. increase the duration of Divine Wrath by X seconds while the ability is active.
    iii. X is dependent on the weapon's base threat range and critical multiplier
    • X = 5 for 20 x2 (fists, thrown weapons, clubs, etc)
    • X = 4 for 20 x3
    • X = 3 for 19-20 x2
    • X = 2 for 18-20 x2
  2. Lower Hard Charisma scaling requirement for passive AB by 1
  3. Increase all Divine Wrath bonus damage tiers by a flat +1

More to come once we iron out the details. (More flavor and diversity)

I'd suggest giving Divine Synergy at something like CoT 17 for those playing Pal/BG CoT, 3 bonus epic feats (at 13, 16 and 19) instead of 2 and some flat passive damage bonus based on CoT level - something like +1 at 10, +2 at 15 and +4 at 20 (since 20 CoT can't go WM)


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Re: Divine Champion Feedback thread

Post by Irongron » Wed Oct 25, 2023 7:07 pm

Scurvy Cur wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2023 1:50 pm
Irongron wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2023 8:54 am

I'm not really at all well informed on the class, having never had inclination to play one in all my years.

Thematically it is rather woolly, and I always read it to be a class that grants better saves?

In any case we are so spoiled for choice now with charisma scaling divine classes.

The main selling point of the class has always been the AB/Damage steroid attached to divine wrath. The vanilla class is hard to justify, even with a +7 or +9 AB/Damage bonus, though, because it's attached to a 1/day ability. Accordingly, it was revised 6 or 7 years ago at this point to be a 2-3 minute buff on a 10 minute cooldown; a good change, but we briefly popularized 8 fighter/7 wm/15 CoT, which functioned much like every other WM out there, only with 7 additional damage and AB, so pretty much every wm took this class, as did a lot of other non-WM melee builds.

To deal with this, CoT was subsequently adjusted by reducing the magnitude of the bonus from +3/5/7/9 at CoT levels 5/10/15/20, to +1/2/3/4, but shortening the cooldown from 10 minutes to 5.

One of the big issues with this approach, though, is that you've only got two variables (AB/Damage output, and buff duration/uptime) to tinker with, and it tends to lead to situations where either CoT's bonuses are not high enough, and so you never take the class, or they're too high, and so you always take the class. The last change probably swung the class from the latter state to the former.

Just wanted to say how much I appreciate this quick history lesson of class adjustments.

Not working on class mechanics directly, and also as a player, it's really easy to lose track of just what has already been tried and then asjusted over the years, and I'm sure I'm not the only player who therefore doesn't feel qualified to weigh in.

Posts like the above are an enormous help.


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Scurvy Cur
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Re: Divine Champion Feedback thread

Post by Scurvy Cur » Thu Oct 26, 2023 12:52 am

Irongron wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2023 7:07 pm
Scurvy Cur wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2023 1:50 pm
Irongron wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2023 8:54 am

I'm not really at all well informed on the class, having never had inclination to play one in all my years.

Thematically it is rather woolly, and I always read it to be a class that grants better saves?

In any case we are so spoiled for choice now with charisma scaling divine classes.

The main selling point of the class has always been the AB/Damage steroid attached to divine wrath. The vanilla class is hard to justify, even with a +7 or +9 AB/Damage bonus, though, because it's attached to a 1/day ability. Accordingly, it was revised 6 or 7 years ago at this point to be a 2-3 minute buff on a 10 minute cooldown; a good change, but we briefly popularized 8 fighter/7 wm/15 CoT, which functioned much like every other WM out there, only with 7 additional damage and AB, so pretty much every wm took this class, as did a lot of other non-WM melee builds.

To deal with this, CoT was subsequently adjusted by reducing the magnitude of the bonus from +3/5/7/9 at CoT levels 5/10/15/20, to +1/2/3/4, but shortening the cooldown from 10 minutes to 5.

One of the big issues with this approach, though, is that you've only got two variables (AB/Damage output, and buff duration/uptime) to tinker with, and it tends to lead to situations where either CoT's bonuses are not high enough, and so you never take the class, or they're too high, and so you always take the class. The last change probably swung the class from the latter state to the former.

Just wanted to say how much I appreciate this quick history lesson of class adjustments.

Not working on class mechanics directly, and also as a player, it's really easy to lose track of just what has already been tried and then asjusted over the years, and I'm sure I'm not the only player who therefore doesn't feel qualified to weigh in.

Posts like the above are an enormous help.

You are, of course, very welcome. I'm glad to help.

Wrips wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2023 7:00 pm
Kenji wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2023 8:20 am

Disregard the Divine Intervention part of the post. Lore-wise, it is a rare occurrence, and the team will plan a different feature for Divine Champion.

Preview on the first wave of coming changes:

  1. Once per round, scoring a critical hit will...
    i. reduce the cooldown of Divine Wrath by X seconds while the ability is inactive.
    ii. increase the duration of Divine Wrath by X seconds while the ability is active.
    iii. X is dependent on the weapon's base threat range and critical multiplier
    • X = 5 for 20 x2 (fists, thrown weapons, clubs, etc)
    • X = 4 for 20 x3
    • X = 3 for 19-20 x2
    • X = 2 for 18-20 x2
  2. Lower Hard Charisma scaling requirement for passive AB by 1
  3. Increase all Divine Wrath bonus damage tiers by a flat +1

More to come once we iron out the details. (More flavor and diversity)

I'd suggest giving Divine Synergy at something like CoT 17 for those playing Pal/BG CoT, 3 bonus epic feats (at 13, 16 and 19) instead of 2 and some flat passive damage bonus based on CoT level - something like +1 at 10, +2 at 15 and +4 at 20 (since 20 CoT can't go WM)

I'd be a little concerned about divine synergy any earlier than 19, because it would fix just about all the problems that I outlined above for the pal/cot/wm combo; you'd be looking at pal 7/CoT 18/WM 5 probably. I also suspect that this build would outperform either the 8 fighter/5 WM/17 BG or the 8 fighter/5 WM/17 Lib, which are the current entrants in Arelith's "wm with divine synergy" list. They'll look a lot like the exact same build at base, with the following distinguishing features:

  • BG: A fiend summon that is helpful in PvE, but, without the warlock class features, prone to getting banished in pvp, +6 base damage from specs.

  • Lib: Whatever package kenji finally settles on, presently... grenades, I guess?; +6 base damage from specs.

  • Wrath (3 AB/4 damage under the current kenji suggestion), +1 AC from access to a +4 platemail, 4 additional feats (fighter 8 grants 5 bonus feats, 2 always get spent on weapon specs, so this is functionally 3 feats and the 6 damage I've counted for the other two builds; CoT 18 presently grants 7 feats. My suspicion is that this will translate in most cases into gstrength x2, and the knockdown/IKD that the vigi and blackguard wms mostly can't fit without being an orog. This build is currently mostly unpalatable because it doesn't get divine synergy.

My instinct is that the pal/cot version would be the strongest of the three by a noticable margin, both moving the needle on the entire archetype, and alignment locking the best build of the bunch to lawful good (which already sports, imo, the best melee build on the server).


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Re: Divine Champion Feedback thread

Post by Wrips » Thu Oct 26, 2023 3:25 am

Scurvy Cur wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2023 12:52 am

I'd be a little concerned about divine synergy any earlier than 19, because it would fix just about all the problems that I outlined above for the pal/cot/wm combo; you'd be looking at pal 7/CoT 18/WM 5 probably. I also suspect that this build would outperform either the 8 fighter/5 WM/17 BG or the 8 fighter/5 WM/17 Lib, which are the current entrants in Arelith's "wm with divine synergy" list. They'll look a lot like the exact same build at base, with the following distinguishing features:

  • BG: A fiend summon that is helpful in PvE, but, without the warlock class features, prone to getting banished in pvp, +6 base damage from specs.

  • Lib: Whatever package kenji finally settles on, presently... grenades, I guess?; +6 base damage from specs.

  • Wrath (3 AB/4 damage under the current kenji suggestion), +1 AC from access to a +4 platemail, 4 additional feats (fighter 8 grants 5 bonus feats, 2 always get spent on weapon specs, so this is functionally 3 feats and the 6 damage I've counted for the other two builds; CoT 18 presently grants 7 feats. My suspicion is that this will translate in most cases into gstrength x2, and the knockdown/IKD that the vigi and blackguard wms mostly can't fit without being an orog. This build is currently mostly unpalatable because it doesn't get divine synergy.

My instinct is that the pal/cot version would be the strongest of the three by a noticable margin, both moving the needle on the entire archetype, and alignment locking the best build of the bunch to lawful good (which already sports, imo, the best melee build on the server).

Yeah, I didn't touch Wrath much since I don't know how that will turn out in the end. My understanding is to try to find a balance between the WM route and make it attractive again so it can be an alternative to wm lm, vig wm, 20/7/3 wm and all. If Divine Synergy is problematic for Pal/CoT/WM, pushing it to 19 is fine. I think the point is that there need to be a proper transition from CoT/WM to x/4 Div/20CoT. That also depends how much the BG summon is factored in, too.

The suggestion to add some passive damage is to make up for BG summon and sneak attack (and later, a +6 weapon) and Paladin Oath damage bonus without front-loading Wrath so much, on top of giving a little more punch for CoT while Wrath is on cooldown. So, something along the lines of +1 at 10, +2 at 15 and +4 at 20 is to give some bone to: a) those going CoT/WM and missing on UMD/Tumble (with the expection of Swash entry, all skip tumble) and especially 20 CoT, that can't pick WM anyway and very likely will pick 4 BG/Pal/Lib for div shield and might, though they miss tumble as well. Hence the need for 20 CoT to be more attractive.

Making the epic bonus feat progression to be at 13, 16 and 19 is also something I would consider very important for those going deep CoT, as an abundance of pre-epic feats don't really make for the lack of epic ones and that's especially true if you want to pick at least something like ESF: Lore for 80 Lore, maybe a Great STR or CHA to even a stat out plus the basic epic feats everyone picks. Even on the pre-epic feats department you will want Improved Turning for the sake of convenience and maybe pick Extra Smiting, if you can, as the extra damage can be a nice burst when someone has low hp and you don't run out of feats for picking it.


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Re: Divine Champion Feedback thread

Post by Scurvy Cur » Thu Oct 26, 2023 3:48 am

Yeah, I agree that the dismal 14/18 progression on CoT epic feats is part of the problem with the class. When it was due for its most recent nerf/rework, I suggested going from 2/4/6/8/10/14/18 to 1/4/7/10/13/16/19.

I think everything you proposed has merit, aside from a fairly minor quibble about where div synergy goes. I think I agree overall with the principles that:

a) if charisma based CoT is something we want to see pursued, then it needs better action economy. When I decided that my deep blackguard was unlikely ever to actually use his summon for RP reasons, I briefly flipped him over to 6 fighter/4 BG/20 CoT, and in my experience it was just straight up worse than 6 fighter/4 Cav/20 BG, even without the summon, because the action economy was too clunky for the payoff.

b) non-charisma CoT needs to be an attractive alternative to, most likely, a tumble/umd dip, or loremaster, and should probably be assumed to slot in as an alternative to those things on a weaponmaster.

c) div/cot/wm is probably not a thing we want to make actually good. It's bad presently because of action economy, but if we remove that roadblock, I think you end up in a position where either CoT is weakened to the point that the 8/5/17 div wms are still better off staying as they are, in which case I anticipate that cha CoT without wm, and wm CoT without divs are unlikely to be very good, or you make it strong enough for Div CoT and WM CoT to be reasonably balanced, in which case Pal/CoT/WM probably displaces everything else in that niche. So best to keep the action economy horrific here.


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Re: Divine Champion Feedback thread

Post by Wrips » Thu Oct 26, 2023 4:55 am

Scurvy Cur wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2023 3:48 am

Yeah, I agree that the dismal 14/18 progression on CoT epic feats is part of the problem with the class. When it was due for its most recent nerf/rework, I suggested going from 2/4/6/8/10/14/18 to 1/4/7/10/13/16/19.

I think everything you proposed has merit, aside from a fairly minor quibble about where div synergy goes. I think I agree overall with the principles that:

a) if charisma based CoT is something we want to see pursued, then it needs better action economy. When I decided that my deep blackguard was unlikely ever to actually use his summon for RP reasons, I briefly flipped him over to 6 fighter/4 BG/20 CoT, and in my experience it was just straight up worse than 6 fighter/4 Cav/20 BG, even without the summon, because the action economy was too clunky for the payoff.

b) non-charisma CoT needs to be an attractive alternative to, most likely, a tumble/umd dip, or loremaster, and should probably be assumed to slot in as an alternative to those things on a weaponmaster.

c) div/cot/wm is probably not a thing we want to make actually good. It's bad presently because of action economy, but if we remove that roadblock, I think you end up in a position where either CoT is weakened to the point that the 8/5/17 div wms are still better off staying as they are, in which case I anticipate that cha CoT without wm, and wm CoT without divs are unlikely to be very good, or you make it strong enough for Div CoT and WM CoT to be reasonably balanced, in which case Pal/CoT/WM probably displaces everything else in that niche. So best to keep the action economy horrific here.

Yeah, the epic bonus feat issue is blatant. I don't even think the number bonus pre-epic feat is problematic, since there's some stuff you want to pick that is given for free to Pal/BG/Lib.

Regarding a), one of the reasons I took an interest for CoT is that I had planned to make one to play a Fighter 6 BG 4 CoT 20 with a friend and then realized how bad and inferior to 20 BG it was. Not even divine synergy alone would be enough to offset BG's superiority in base AB, damage and that's not even counting the fiend. That's why I proposed the passive damage bonus, on top of Wrath, as I feel like Div CoT lacks the punch of deep BG. I have also considered adding a biteback like Oath of Reckoning while Wrath is active. Something like 1d2 + hard cha at 10, 1d4 + hard cha at 15 and 1d8+hard cha at 20. I feel like divine biteback fits CoT thematically far better than Paladin, anyway.

Regarding b), I agree. The point is to balance AB and damage bonus to make up for the lack tumble dip and umd utilities. I think the AB is fine, the addition of the proposed passive damage makes it slightly more attractive. Between the proposed +4 damage from modified Wrath and +2 from hypothetical passive damage, I think this would be covered. So, a bit more of utility somewhere, maybe, to avoid damage inflation.

c) I agree as well and fixed by pushing Divine Synergy to 19.

Ultimately, I agree it basically boils down to make CoT attractive to WMs and make 20 CoT an attractive div option.


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Re: Divine Champion Feedback thread

Post by Kenji » Thu Oct 26, 2023 10:48 pm

CoT will likely not get the full version of div synergy, but a modified version where:
When Div Wrath is activated, if CoT > X level and also has Div Might, then activate Div Might for free

The team has been discussing how perhaps we will introduce a different feat to replace Lay on Hands (a broader generally named feat to cater to more concepts) and both Div Wrath and that "new feat" will have customized interaction based on the patron deity's aspect as well as alignment.

Nothing is set in stone yet, but we do have some flavor changes in mind. Those will come after the first wave of mechanical changes.


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Re: Divine Champion Feedback thread

Post by Wrips » Thu Oct 26, 2023 11:18 pm

Kenji wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2023 10:48 pm

CoT will likely not get the full version of div synergy, but a modified version where:
When Div Wrath is activated, if CoT > X level and also has Div Might, then activate Div Might for free

The team has been discussing how perhaps we will introduce a different feat to replace Lay on Hands (a broader generally named feat to cater to more concepts) and both Div Wrath and that "new feat" will have customized interaction based on the patron deity's aspect as well as alignment.

Nothing is set in stone yet, but we do have some flavor changes in mind. Those will come after the first wave of mechanical changes.

Honestly, this sounds like creating a problem where there isn't one. The current divine synergy given at 19, as proposed by Scurvy, seems fine enough. Having to micro div shield, might and wrath again (since you might want to trigger div might without triggering wrath) in dungeons would be annoying when you could just streamline it.

If the first round of mechanical changes are those presented here, they are woefully insufficient anyway. I'd like to know what has led the team to come to the current conclusion that this first round of mechanical changes is adequate.


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Re: Divine Champion Feedback thread

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri Oct 27, 2023 6:54 am

Kenji wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2023 10:48 pm

CoT will likely not get the full version of div synergy, but a modified version where:
When Div Wrath is activated, if CoT > X level and also has Div Might, then activate Div Might for free

It's basically divine synergy but only for the 2ish minutes window of divine wrath.
It also consumes just one turn undead charge instead of two, based on the wording "activates for free" which is kind of meaningless because it wont really do much difference when it's only when divine wrath is active. So lets be honest and call it divine synergy when it matters, because it's really what it boils down to. As for CoT > X lvl... If you dont want to see it on wm you kinda have to go with 19+.

Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Divine Champion Feedback thread

Post by Chloe123 » Sat Oct 28, 2023 10:31 am

The discussions above obviously only concerns about how strong CoT should be in PvP, but never realise how hellish they are to level. Try level one CoT to 30 and next level a warlock to 30 and you will understand why there's few CoT on server, not everyone pursues pvp, if the class is so clunky to play, probaby QoL is the priority to fix.


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Re: Divine Champion Feedback thread

Post by PowerWord Rage » Sat Oct 28, 2023 12:46 pm

The only strong points about Divine Champion are just these three -
1) Feats ( especially on epic levels ) for first ten levels
2) Saving throws
3) Divine Wrath

Yet, the actual circumstances are, all of them are very lackluster.

The Feats given are not comparable to Fighter Feats given because they lose the first level feat given from Fighter level and there's no weapon specialization to pick from.

With how saving throws are easily obtained from sources as such scrolls, equipments, spellcrafts, it's not too much of a deal here.

And finally, Divine Wrath is just....lackluster. To utilize it, you'll have to invest in charisma and even that, the most that you can reach is probably between 66 seconds to 84 seconds. I doubt that anyone will go further than that.
Now...If you're a Divine Champion for just the first 10 levels, you're just getting +2AB, +2DMG and 5/+3 DR. The AB and DMG is just a click from a silver bell, war cry or battletide. It's not possible to utilize both Divine Wrath and War Cry together, if you included the rounds that you'll have to spend to activate Divine shield / Divine wrath.
If you've just 84 seconds of Divine wrath, you'll effectively spend 24 seconds away just to activate these 4 skills. And the clunky combat means that you've less than a minute to enjoy the benefits.
The above are for pre 10 levels.

I believe that we all agree that taking any -classes- to epic levels most of the time, has very very substantial benefits that're worth the effort to invest. Then...take a look at Divine Wrath at lvl 20.... just a mere +4AB, +4DMG and DR 15/+5.
The DR is obsolete with how easy it is to penetrate +5/DR from both players and monsters, even a greater stoneskin spell beats Divine Wrath. While greater stoneskin could be breached, Divine Wrath has too short of a duration, with a CD of 5 minutes.

Duration of 3 + 1/2 Class level + Charisma mod in rounds.
[ 3 + 10 (20 COT level) + 10 - 12 (cha mod) = 23 rounds - 25 rounds ]
For taking COT to level 20, you'll essentially be skipping on tumble skill points which even 2 AC lost, is a big deal.
If you dip to bard at level 19 perhaps, to at least gain 4 AC, you'll lose 1AB due to how BAB works.
If you do not decide to take COT to 20, at level 15 COT, it's just a +3AB which...just isn't worth mentioning

I've completely ignore the Regen part because +4 Regen over even 25 rounds, is just 100 HP. Compare that with Second wind feat or Epic Second wind feat...It's just pathetic. Even Barbarian's mighty rage has more than that and it does not require pure investment.
+3 Regen is even more less worth mentioning.

Divine Champion need a complete rework really. I see no reason, no matter on which standpoint PVE or PVP, on how it's even viable.

The only reason in the past why Divine Champion was picked over Fighter for the first 4 levels are because it used to give +3AB at bare minimum and it's a huge buff for such simple investment. With this removed, this class simply lost all it's viability.
It's not exactly the worst class nor do i know which are the worst, but it's worse enough as it already is.


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Re: Divine Champion Feedback thread

Post by Quidix » Sun Apr 07, 2024 11:29 am

Kenji wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2023 10:48 pm

CoT will likely not get the full version of div synergy, but a modified version where:
When Div Wrath is activated, if CoT > X level and also has Div Might, then activate Div Might for free

Kenji wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2023 8:20 am
  1. Lower Hard Charisma scaling requirement for passive AB by 1

These two changes would be immensely welcome and I favour simple (and quick) changes like this over wide-scale changes, which will take a long time and risks being disruptive. Please consider putting div synergy at lvl 20 or so to avoid WM issues. The other changes I'm more on the fence about.

One additional ask: Could Divine Champion count towards getting Aura of Glory or Aura / Enmity as a /Hour buff rather than /Turns? With the upcoming dweomer system, it's intense to spread stats.


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Re: Divine Champion Feedback thread

Post by Disaster Lesbian » Fri Apr 12, 2024 3:19 am

I've been playing a few Divine Champions as of late, so - my experience is fairly anecdotal and goes from my own builds and experiences.

I feel as though Divine Champion is lacking a certain- something. While Divine Wrath enables some cookies, by and large it's a mostly flavour experience. Religious zealotry manifests in such a particular way - and yet, somehow, it doesn't even get access to more of the divine. As it stands, with how they are it just feels like a Fighter, reskinned as a PrC and given a few things as an afterthought, which is a shame but can certainly be easily rectified.

It's a weird point, I think giving Divine Champion access to divine wands, much like Blackguards can, would bring it something else. It doesn't make much sense - Especially when you consider their other cookies like Lay on Hands, or the fact they can Smite.

The class needs...something, a little more - else it feels rather hollow.

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Re: Divine Champion Feedback thread

Post by Glaucozilla » Fri Apr 12, 2024 6:15 pm

I always was tempted to add DC to some characters, but in the end it was never worth it.

It is an interesting concept that can make you RP a 'different' kind of paladin.

Melee Weapon Bonus - I think this bonus is downright terrible. It has so many requirements, and it will ONLY work at its full if the character is a CHA based character. I'd lower the requirements to 14 and 18. Or just remove the Charisma requirement, but make it every 6-7 levels.

Lay on hands
- Useful, but if a paladin goes DC becomes completely uselss. Maybe some extra effect\cooldown reduction if you already have it?

Divine Smite - Nothing wrong with that! Beside the redundancy if you already are a "smiter"

Divine Wrath - The selling point of the class. you're going deep in it and you don't dip, you want to go 'mainly' on DC because of this.
And yet.. Knight does it better, and gives something extra as well.

Sacred Defense
- the 'evil' alternative, the black guard. Gets a Badass dark blessing at level 2 that is insanely stronger than this. Why not a fixed +X that becomes 'dark blessing' at level 11 ?


Synergies:
The divine champion is a PRC so it means you can feel it as a main class after level.. 25 or so?

Martials: Fighers\Swash\Barbarians and their friends will not benefeti from much of the class. The Ab sucks, the smite sucks, and they're going to lose many of their cool stuff.

Warlock\Sorcerers\Favored souls:
They're going to get the full potential of this. But they're going to lose A LOT of caster benefits.

Rogues: They can make something fun out of it for sure if it fits the concept. But they'll need so many stats behind it that maybe it will never be optimal.

Harbinger: Harbinger has a nice synergy feat for DC. But.. it works only for 5 levels. and really gets a lot of fun things on the harbinger as a main class. So, 5 levels in DC are what harbingers with divine patronage are going ot invest. Which is good, as they get smite, lay on hand, melee weapon bonus and wrath. And divine synergy. Which is odd, since it's not something the DC gets.

Clerics: They can benefit from it? but just on some very specific build that relies on the DC class. losing tons of caster levels and getting the DC very late due to the requirements.


Suggestions:

-Give a bonus Power attack at level 1. :It is a -bad- feat if you're not a big multiplier crit build. (And even there...) but it's a requirement for divine might and shield.

-Give a "Divine Synergy" feat somewhere. Like 8? 10? 12?

-Lower the AB requirement. A +7 means you're either a martial or you get this VERY late in pre-epics.

-Charisma bonus: Maybe, somewhere like.. level 8 10 12 some feat that gives a soft CHA bonus based on STR or DEX (Whatever is higher) to make the class viable to non cha-based classes. (Like a +2 cha every X levels if STR or DEX is higher than Y)

-Divine Wrath: Add some scaling of CHA to the divine wrath. Everything basically works on Charisma. the main selling point of the class may benefit from it a lot.

-MAYBE add divine shield and might as feats somewhere past level 5. It will give some more reasons to go divine champion and make it worth it.


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