Potions of True Strike

[Dr. B]

I don't understand how anybody could possibly enjoy the kind of gameplay that these things necessitate.

I know they have been around a long time but there has to be a better solution to high AC builds than these. Conceptually, the idea of people chasing each other around, chugging potions feels like it belongs in a Monty Python sketch. The extremely short duration coupled with the extremely high AB bonus is the source of the problem. The AB bonus is complete overkill and the short duration means you have to do this ridiculous kiting dance until you pop your next one. Can they not be tweaked so as to provide a more modest AB bonus for a longer duration?

[Morgy]

I have seen the situation you describe, but it’s so rare in genuine PvP outside the arena that I don’t think it’s an issue. Some builds just stalemate each other, and that’s fine. In those cases the fight either goes on until a slip up or one party surrenders.

I certainly don’t think we need another war cry, battle tide or blood frenzy type spell. The first two were made inoperable with each other for good reason.

Atop all this, I think pvp involving a lot of running is far more entertaining than just slugging one another on the spot.

[Waldo52]

I don't understand how anybody could possibly enjoy the kind of gameplay that these things necessitate.

I know they have been around a long time but there has to be a better solution to high AC builds than these. Conceptually, the idea of people chasing each other around, chugging potions feels like it belongs in a Monty Python sketch. The extremely short duration coupled with the extremely high AB bonus is the source of the problem. The AB bonus is complete overkill and the short duration means you have to do this ridiculous kiting dance until you pop your next one. Can they not be tweaked so as to provide a more modest AB bonus for a longer duration?

I totally agree.

This thing has a duration of several seconds and can be borderline mandatory, especially for rogues and other mid BaB combat characters but probably for everyone. Warding is a fact of life and isn't going anywhere but using TS can turn your PvP session into a silly drinking game while not popping it can mean certain death.

I'd like to see True Strike as more of a lingering buff. At least make it last a minute.

[Morgy]

I don't understand how anybody could possibly enjoy the kind of gameplay that these things necessitate.

I know they have been around a long time but there has to be a better solution to high AC builds than these. Conceptually, the idea of people chasing each other around, chugging potions feels like it belongs in a Monty Python sketch. The extremely short duration coupled with the extremely high AB bonus is the source of the problem. The AB bonus is complete overkill and the short duration means you have to do this ridiculous kiting dance until you pop your next one. Can they not be tweaked so as to provide a more modest AB bonus for a longer duration?

I totally agree.

This thing has a duration of several seconds and can be borderline mandatory, especially for rogues and other mid BaB combat characters but probably for everyone. Warding is a fact of life and isn't going anywhere but using TS can turn your PvP session into a silly drinking game while not popping it can mean certain death.

I'd like to see True Strike as more of a lingering buff. At least make it last a minute.

+20 soft ab for a minute would be absurd, sorry . That would make it more than just mandatory, it would be utterly essential.

[Waldo52]

I don't understand how anybody could possibly enjoy the kind of gameplay that these things necessitate.

I know they have been around a long time but there has to be a better solution to high AC builds than these. Conceptually, the idea of people chasing each other around, chugging potions feels like it belongs in a Monty Python sketch. The extremely short duration coupled with the extremely high AB bonus is the source of the problem. The AB bonus is complete overkill and the short duration means you have to do this ridiculous kiting dance until you pop your next one. Can they not be tweaked so as to provide a more modest AB bonus for a longer duration?

I totally agree.

This thing has a duration of several seconds and can be borderline mandatory, especially for rogues and other mid BaB combat characters but probably for everyone. Warding is a fact of life and isn't going anywhere but using TS can turn your PvP session into a silly drinking game while not popping it can mean certain death.

I'd like to see True Strike as more of a lingering buff. At least make it last a minute.

+20 soft ab for a minute would be absurd, sorry . That would make it more than just mandatory, it would be utterly essential.

Oh I meant with a reduced effect.

[Morgy]

I totally agree.

This thing has a duration of several seconds and can be borderline mandatory, especially for rogues and other mid BaB combat characters but probably for everyone. Warding is a fact of life and isn't going anywhere but using TS can turn your PvP session into a silly drinking game while not popping it can mean certain death.

I'd like to see True Strike as more of a lingering buff. At least make it last a minute.

+20 soft ab for a minute would be absurd, sorry . That would make it more than just mandatory, it would be utterly essential.

Oh I meant with a reduced effect.

Fair enough! Though we have War Cry, Battletide, Blood Frenzy, Prayer and Divine Favor as short duration AB buffs already.

I’ve been in a fair share of PvP recently and I just don’t see it much outside arenas as I said.. are other people really seeing it that much more often as to be an issue?

[Dr. B]

Atop all this, I think pvp involving a lot of running is far more entertaining than just slugging one another on the spot.

I disagree. It feels gamey and lacks the dignity and gravitas of toe to toe combat.

[Quidix]

What about just adding a 18sec, 30 sec or 1min cooldown on use?

[Morgy]

Atop all this, I think pvp involving a lot of running is far more entertaining than just slugging one another on the spot.

I disagree. It feels gamey and lacks the dignity and gravitas of toe to toe combat.

I don’t necessarily disagree, but standing on the spot like that will leave winning up to the dice rolls alone pretty much, and I don’t think anyone is going to sit back and just watch their char get pummelled. People will always back off to use scrolls, heals, abilities, etc… TS is just one of many reasons to run around.

[svet]

PVP will always involve running around.

I imagine getting rid of true strikes or even putting them on a cooldown will make it harder if not almost impossible to kill builds like the AC div sorcerers, bards, monks, builds with monk dips, cornersneakers and so on. Especially if they are in the hands of experienced players. You can always step away and wait for the effect to fade then time your attack while they are without true strike. There are definitely ways to deal with it but it does take some skill and not actions that have no thought put into them.

Atop all this, I think pvp involving a lot of running is far more entertaining than just slugging one another on the spot.

I absolutely agree with this otherwise if there is no kiting involved, might as well be away from my keyboard while waiting for the fight to end after clicking the red man.

[-XXX-]

Most melee builds have 49-52 AB and 49-54 AC, so any Rock 'Em Sock 'Em style of encounter would usually come down to who has the higher DPS.

True strike:
- gives a game vs. endgame boss monsters.
- gives a game vs. fringe high AC (60+) builds.
- enables IKD vs. high discipline (70+) opponents.
- enables effective attacks while turtling behind improved expertise*

*now I believe that this interaction might be the actual pet peeve here as turtling behind (improved) expertise makes chain drinking true strike potions practically mandatory. It also removes the downside of (improved) expertise - perhaps true strike shouldn't work while (improved) expertise is active.

[MessyBaddie]

I don't understand how anybody could possibly enjoy the kind of gameplay that these things necessitate.

I know they have been around a long time but there has to be a better solution to high AC builds than these. Conceptually, the idea of people chasing each other around, chugging potions feels like it belongs in a Monty Python sketch. The extremely short duration coupled with the extremely high AB bonus is the source of the problem. The AB bonus is complete overkill and the short duration means you have to do this ridiculous kiting dance until you pop your next one. Can they not be tweaked so as to provide a more modest AB bonus for a longer duration?

I couldn't agree more. I don't care how normalised or accepted it is, and how long we've been stuck with it. It's ridiculous.
I don't know if this (or what) is the solution, but I wanted to chime in and say I definitely hate the Benny Hill meta.

Chug pot. Chase enemy who avoids you until it expires.
Enemy chugs pot. Avoid enemy. Repeat.

Even funnier in group PvP where entire parties are doing it. I wish it would go away.
It's also especially frustrating given how janky and buggy the game is. Constantly getting stuck on nothing at all, the lag, and I'm in frickin Australia.

[MessyBaddie]

+20 soft ab for a minute would be absurd, sorry . That would make it more than just mandatory, it would be utterly essential.

Oh I meant with a reduced effect.

Fair enough! Though we have War Cry, Battletide, Blood Frenzy, Prayer and Divine Favor as short duration AB buffs already.

I’ve been in a fair share of PvP recently and I just don’t see it much outside arenas as I said.. are other people really seeing it that much more often as to be an issue?

Sorry, but yes. I don't recall a single time involving melee pvp (unless it involved low levels) I haven't seen the chugchase.
We all have different playtimes, playstyles, luck and experience.. But in my own experience, It's every PvP unless melee isn't involved.

[Tarkus the dog]

ive seen people spam true strikes while they are badly wounded

it can help you get killed as much as it helps you kill. drink a true strike instead of clarity, get stunned by terry rage and die. drink a true strike instead of a freedom, now you're swimming in acid -- also dead

unless we really want to see a lot more monks and cheese ac builds running around, probably leave them as they are

[Hazard]

Atop all this, I think pvp involving a lot of running is far more entertaining than just slugging one another on the spot.

I disagree. It feels gamey and lacks the dignity and gravitas of toe to toe combat.

I think so too. We all have to do it, but I wish we didn't.
This game isn't built for it, it feels bad it looks bad.
The rolls are there. It's an RPG. Let the characters fight instead of people zooming around like it's a moba.
Don't know what the solution is but I'm so damn glad I'm not the only one who has hated this, this whole time. I was starting to think I was crazy.

[-XXX-]

D&D has never been intended or designed for PvP in the first place.
Higher lvl caps only further emphasize the inherent strengths and weaknesses of various character builds while pushing the dice roll variance out.

The Benny Hill chase has always been an unfortunate reality of NWN PvP.
Whenever we see two characters recklessly charging each other, there's a good chance one of them made a mistake.

TBH I don't see this dynamic ever going away and wouldn't say that it's caused by true strike potions either.

[dominantdrowess]

For this to work, you'd have to reduce the AC of some classes, which in some nich setups can have upwards of 76 Armor Class in some races, like Genasi Halfling.

There's NO way to hit them when they have epic dodge because of that. There's zero counter without True Strike spam. They even have discipline high enough that a knockdown would ALWAYS fail without a true strike, and sometimes does with it.

You simply can't cause enough damage in the window allowed if you put it on a Cooldown and this was emphasized by the knockdown nerfs.

Dexers often want to be AFK invincible in PvP how they are in PvE: And shouldn't be.

It is not fair and interesting gameplay to AFK-Auto-Attack each other when one of the two people literally has 76 AC, and Epic Dodge.

Epic Dodge means you basically have to hit a natural 20 MULTIPLE TIMES in a round (with only 4 or 5 -- or sometimes as few as 3 attacks per ROUND on some classes?) to hit someone; and those 20's? Can still be lost to Concealment like invisibility.

The game's math, hit-rates and balance are currently designed AROUND the existence of True Strike in a number of classes. You'd basically have to rip out the guts of several of Arelith's classes to change this Armor Class dynamic. It would be equivalent to Loremageddon OR The Monk Summer all over again with a wide amount of forced relevels for basically every epic dodge character in the game -- or they'd simply be allowed to be AFK-fight kings with no counters. (Since they are designed to fight and succeed at saving throws and resistance checks against casters in their base classes -- not win against plate fighters.)

You gotta look at the actual math on how often each class can hit each other per round, and how much damage they cause that class's percentage of hitpoints. That same class's true-strike chugging? Doesn't work against Pale Masters, or against each other for instance, because a pair of weapons masters can hit each other without true-strike, and stopping, and losing half a round to chug true-strike potion a potion can get you killed early.

The real issue.. is the semi-D&Dish "movement" penalty, where if you move? You don't get all your attacks that round. (In D&D it's only one attack if you move no matter how many you have) This is the reason the system is designed around people running all over the place in NWN's-- since if you're moving, a fighter can't get all their swings on you, and if you use your initiative properly, you can initiate the opening attack and get multiple attacks before your enemy gets one.

This, unfortunately, is core to NWN's combat system. Removing it also wouldn't fix the mobility issue, and would basically make fighters king and not fix the moving problem. (Since they'd be able to blenderize you with all attacks while moving at full tilt.)

(The old whirlwind system used to bug this out. The new one ignores initiative, so that you can't intentionally reset (or accidentally mess up) your flurries.)

Not a solution; but kind of an explanation as to WHY things are the way they are.

[The Rambling Midget]

For this to work, you'd have to reduce the AC of some classes, which in some nich setups can have upwards of 76 Armor Class in some races, like Genasi Halfling.

I've played builds like this, and STR still wins nearly every time, if it's built competently. The dexer is a momentary roadblock, and nothing more. It can't deal enough damage to be more than a nuisance, while putting itself at extreme risk, and the STR build only has to hit it a few times to end the fight.

Strength wins. Dex just survives. Not being able to get a kill is what has players bent out of shape, when they should understand that displacement is still a legitimate victory. Death is completely meaningless, so taking ground and achieving objectives is what will have a lasting impact. Strength does that. Dex doesn't.

With all of that said, True Strike really doesn't need to be changed. It has its place, and it only works when the target decides to let it work.

[AstralUniverse]

Maybe give True Strike the heal pot treatment and count it as strong alcohol to just prevent ridiculous spams.

[dominantdrowess]

For this to work, you'd have to reduce the AC of some classes, which in some nich setups can have upwards of 76 Armor Class in some races, like Genasi Halfling.

I've played builds like this, and STR still wins nearly every time, if it's built competently. The dexer is a momentary roadblock, and nothing more. It can't deal enough damage to be more than a nuisance, while putting itself at extreme risk, and the STR build only has to hit it a few times to end the fight.

This is because their job is killing wizards, clerics, warlocks, and casters. Not STR melee. Things like time-stop, disjunction, corner-sneaking, and picking the proper target. Draining the strength of a wizard with sneak attacks is a death sentence. The problem with dex, is also the PvP rules... you can't really use stealth or surprise for PvP very often unless you are part of a team-fight.

[Dr. B]

I've never thought of non-monk dex builds as being particularly suited to killing mages, at least no more so than high burst damage strength builds. Is that not the case?

Also, you mentioned Epic Dodge. Hot take: Epic Dodge is broken and should really be looked at. A feat that allows you to avoid an attack may be fine, but allowing you to avoid the first attack each round is overkill.

[dominantdrowess]

Rogues with disjunction grenades, or scrolls, using an instant-blazing speed to catch up to a fleeing caster? Absolutely. Rogues also have things like slippery mind and other saving-throw setups (including evasion) to avoid damage or CC effects from several kinds of casters. Dodge AC builds are also more effective at avoiding Warlock damage spam than fighters are.

Pale Master wizards and warlocks pwn fighters, but rogues with Holy Grenades? Boom. If you are geared fully for stealth? Odds are you're equipped wrong to even be fighting a fighter, since Arelith's PvP rules make stealthing as a dexer kinda useless, but the items who have them generally aren't the best for PvP and may even lack the 10% damage reduction of certain quality armors.

I carry 4 or 5 sets of gear on me, for minimizing my weaknesses against some of the classes that hard-counter me; but.. that's just so I survive long enough for my allies to help me out. There's LITERALLY nothing my character can do against a Pale Master; though more modern characters have a bit more counterplay.

Blackguard-Sorcerer? Nothing I can do.

[Kalthariam]

I'm of the opinion epic dodge is pretty awful to play against period, and most classes that get epic dodge already have ridiculous levels of AC from being Dex based. Why do they need a guaranteed dodge of an ability anyways?

Improved expertise has the downside of also tanking your own AB by a flat 10 points in exchange for the 10 AC bonus, it's a pretty big trade off.

You mix Epic Dodge, 70+ Ac and Concealment of any kind together and your hitting a point where it's just absolutely stupid and even if you do 10 damage a hit you'll likely still win before people can hit you more than a few times.

Mix tht in with people constantly running away so you never even get the full attacks off per round, and them constantly just sneaking around pillars or corners to try to get off sneak attacks or death attacks or whatever stupid nonsense they have, and you're basically always going to miss your first attack, and then they run away perma hasted because they likely have blinding speed. Which Unless you have someone hasting you externally you likely don't have permanent haste. So that leads to your first attack always missing no matter what, your 2nd attack from the first double hit might register, if your lucky you'll get your 3rd attack, but then the dex person's run off again and you get no more attacks at all until they decided to re-engage. True strike doesn't help here, because the moment they see you drink a potion, they immediately bounce away and are untouchable for the entire 6 second duration, and if you happen to catch them? First attack always misses anyways.

I've been in duels with people that I knock them on their butt and I still get "Attack dodged" while their on their backsides from a horn spell or being knocked down. Because no matter what apparently epic dodge just always works, and there's basically nothing you can do to mitigate it. It's not like concealment where you can have items that just strips it away. Epic dodge is just always active and there's no counter play to it.

Further I don't really think Dex players are THAT much lower on damage than strength players. afaik the average strength score of a strength based character is generally between 38-42 is it not? SO we're looking at 14-16 bonus damage. A dex base character with 10 base str can still get up to 22 strength with magic bonuses, which is +6 damage.

so it's 8-10 extra damage a swing (12-15 if their two handing a weapon due to the 1.5x bonus) but how much extra is that really when you count for the fact your going to on average only hit once per round? If your lucky? While the dex characters get to have all the same benefits (True strike potions mixed with corner sneaking for example) and even if they aren't doing as much raw damage as you, they are going to hit you, unlike the fact your not going to hit them. So that extra damage per swing rapidly turns to nothing when you cant actually hit them.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I don't understand how anybody could possibly enjoy the kind of gameplay that these things necessitate.

I know they have been around a long time but there has to be a better solution to high AC builds than these. Conceptually, the idea of people chasing each other around, chugging potions feels like it belongs in a Monty Python sketch. The extremely short duration coupled with the extremely high AB bonus is the source of the problem. The AB bonus is complete overkill and the short duration means you have to do this ridiculous kiting dance until you pop your next one. Can they not be tweaked so as to provide a more modest AB bonus for a longer duration?

Preach broheim.

That being said, I'm not sure what the solution is. NwN is limited, and it comes down to the choice of would you rather die to shotguns or run around in the "benny hill meta" (best coinage of 2022). I've always been of the thought process that the shot gun is better in general, because the fear of dying to it would actually slow players down when it comes to jumping into pvp. But every time i have said it over the last 4 years there is always a trail of boo's and hisses, so I just gave up.

[MissEvelyn]

So let's get a True Strike -mageddon. Arelith has never shied away from trying out new, sometimes radical solutions. But it always gets adjusted and tweaked, most of the time for the better.

I agree that a D&D game like NWN should feel like we're rolling dice, and not like the pseudo-action, exploitable game it feels like right now.