New Drinks - Herbalism by MoonMoon

[Tabby]

I dont see it as a problem, shops has increased capacity of +10, before it was 20, now is 30. Use a little space for a couple of potions. Or better, are you a herbalist, make em as you venture on.


Sorry, the drinks are nice, but my PC made a bunch and can't sell them at even rock bottom prices so now she's lugging a gazillion drinks around. Gave out free samples to get people interested even, but no one seems to be impressed at all. She has to use temp stalls so this has become very frustrating.

Im unsure why you wrap your message inside my quote?

Alright, then dont sell em.. sell something else. *shrugs* You tried, it didnt work, no market for it, sell something else then. Being a merchant, you take risk, when selling.. either to cheap, too expensive, or no demand. Its the very essences of a merchants life


The drinks are still a neat little thing. Its still NEW FREE CONTENT, that are suppose to SPICE up you RP, as you all sit around that fireplace, mid dungeon, having your herbalist, making tea, for all those travel companions around the fire.

[Tabby]

Something is being added, be glad, why all this negative attitude, i feeling sorry for the devs that use FREE TIME to add things too you all.

People should realise that the fact that something was made for free doesnt necessary make the result good. It doesnt relate at all. You can do a lot of crap in your free time, and it will be still a crap, sorry. I also don't think it's good to just hide the negative feedback, because the things were done in someones free time. If someone uses his free time to do something, he probably likes doing it. If he likes doing it, he probably wants to get better at it. And you will not get better if everyone will just hide their negative feelings and criticism and say "hey this is perfect, because you made it in your free time." So no. I dont feel sorry that someone invested their free time and received negative feedback, because if it's constructive feedback, it means that the person who invested his free time invested it into improving himself and learning from the things he made badly.

The other thing is that if someone disagrees, provides critisism etc, and person who made it tries to explain why it was made that way, it will also make the person iterate over his design in his head, and he might even find improvements of it.

So overall, try to remember that if many many years ago, someone made a square wheel in his free time, and no one would criticise it because it was free, we'd be screwed.

Just to note, I do appreciate the amount of time people are willing to invest into arelith. I may not always agree with designs, I may not agree as to which projects they chose, and that is perfectly okay, because it's their call, it's their time. But I still think that providing feedback and offering other view on a design of something is worthwhile, and thus if devs are receiving constructive criticism on their results, I see it as a good thing.

Sorry, when i read the forum, more or less there is soo much anger, so much dissapointment, complaints.. its frustrating to see, so many people being so.. negative..
Constructive or not.. if its only negative, negative, negative, in the end, some might think.. whatever, im not making new content.

Im sorry, i simply disagree with you.

About this topic here, you missed the idea of it, its an RP drink, not a buffdrink as such. Its not to sell in mayor quantities in shop, its for the tavern, and the fireplace break.

[riffraff]

About this topic here, you missed the idea of it, its an RP drink, not a buffdrink as such. Its not to sell in mayor quantities in shop, its for the tavern, and the fireplace break.

To be fair, though, the drinks do provide buffs, so feedback on those buffs is valid. Cracking out some rice wine just for RP is great, but if the rice wine provides a specific buff and people feel that buff doesn't last long enough to actually make use of, that's a reasonable criticism. I believe the RP provision is meant to come from cooks/herbalists having people seek them out to make/buy these drinks from or going to taverns to get the drinks and RP on the way. They are meant to inspire RP, yes, but the buffs are also there to be used.

Scylon's criticism, for example, is that the duration isn't long enough to actually enjoy the RP of getting the drinks and make use of the buffs. That seems very valid because it appears that's counter to the intent of these items.

I think the idea of these is really neat (and will be excited for any new herbalism stuff), but it doesn't mean there isn't room for tweaks, as with anything newly introduced. MoonMoon even said in the original announcement that they might be tweaked over time.

[Martoc]

I didn't even realize the drink buffs wear off in my limited testing, since when I click on the buff to get the time left it showed as permanent or unknown (I forget which). Could the time left on the drink buffs show up in the buff timer NUI stuff?

[Nekonecro]

Just going to add that the lack of stacking really hurts in terms of prepping them for events, redescribing them and selling them in a store.

Know it's been said already but I just wanted to add another +1 to that opinion.

[Azensor]

Imo the best and pretty much only way to rp/'sell' these things is to just carry the materials needed to make them..and make them only when you know 100% someone will buy them/use them.

[Eyeliner]

Sorry, when i read the forum, more or less there is soo much anger, so much dissapointment, complaints.. its frustrating to see, so many people being so.. negative..
Constructive or not.. if its only negative, negative, negative, in the end, some might think.. whatever, im not making new content.

Feedback sections are going to seem a little negative because that's their nature. Players don't tend to post feedback when they're completely satisfied and you're not going to see a lot of thank yous here, there's a separate kudos section for those. It doesn't mean there's any ill feeling or malaise it's just... feedback. Constructive criticism does read as negative but it's difficult to write it in a way that is overly positive unless you're intentionally padding it with compliments to spare feelings, which I don't think is necessary here. I would expect (and hope) the developers understand that.

[Cabarcos]

Sorry, when i read the forum, more or less there is soo much anger, so much dissapointment, complaints.. its frustrating to see, so many people being so.. negative..
Constructive or not.. if its only negative, negative, negative, in the end, some might think.. whatever, im not making new content.

Feedback sections are going to seem a little negative because that's their nature. Players don't tend to post feedback when they're completely satisfied and you're not going to see a lot of thank yous here, there's a separate kudos section for those. It doesn't mean there's any ill feeling or malaise it's just... feedback. Constructive criticism does read as negative but it's difficult to write it in a way that is overly positive unless you're intentionally padding it with compliments to spare feelings, which I don't think is necessary here. I would expect (and hope) the developers understand that.

Maybe it's but it shouldn't be. We should provide feedback saying what is good and what is bad for us. We all can have an opinion and should try to be polite when explaining it.
Sometimes I get the feeling that we are not grateful enough to all the people that makes the server possible (players included).


Back to the point, I'd love to be able to reuse bottles. The empty bottles you find, the water bottles, etc. Some potions don't need glass bottles or vials.
For the Healing Draught you need Irongut Potions, and to make the Irongut ones you need Glass Bottles, so in this case, looks like you are using the same bottles.

[Tabby]

Noted..

After this post, i have neclected to read the forums, as much as i used to do

And so be it i will read the announcement thread as the sole reason on this forum.

I do hope devs, are keeping it calm and dont take it too negative. I appreciate all the hours they put into it.

Be well everyone! And keep a posetive mind.. cheers!

[Scylon]

Imo the best and pretty much only way to rp/'sell' these things is to just carry the materials needed to make them..and make them only when you know 100% someone will buy them/use them.

Well, that is kind of the point from what I understood. These aren't supposed to be a tool per say you guzzle down when you are out and about.

That said, If I as a character drop into the bar and order a drink, the other character makes it, and when I go on my way I have a "well fed" kind of buff for awhile. (as said previously, it is too short right now)

Hell, to be honest, I might even be in favour of these buffs not working at all unless they were used in the taverns. But the durations would need to be real good for that. We have other stuff for field buffs, this in my thoughts should be a preprep/RP item only.

My reasoning for that is, we don't want to create situations where everyone can ave easy access to every buff. Adding a tavern only restriction mitigates a lot of these issues of stacking, because in that senerio you don't want to be hauling lots of them.

[Cagus]

Something is being added, be glad, why all this negative attitude, i feeling sorry for the devs that use FREE TIME to add things too you all.

Sorry, when i read the forum, more or less there is soo much anger, so much dissapointment, complaints.. its frustrating to see, so many people being so.. negative..
Constructive or not.. if its only negative, negative, negative, in the end, some might think.. whatever, im not making new content.

Im sorry, i simply disagree with you.

About this topic here, you missed the idea of it, its an RP drink, not a buffdrink as such. Its not to sell in mayor quantities in shop, its for the tavern, and the fireplace break.

What?
Are you just scolding people for giving feedback in the topic in category FEEDBACK you created?
I see one person asking polite if drinks be stackable and explaining why.
Second has opinion, that it is RP tool and cannot be used outside that because of duration.
Third asks for these to be stackable again.

What are you talking about with the negativity, anger and disappointment?

Disagree you can, but so can others. There are people between us, who think that things can be changed and improved and also that doing something for free is not automatic critique/feedback shield.
And if you see many times some kind of pattern (like people being dissatisfied and complaining), then it shows there is some problem, and saying "no, just be positive" will for sure not solve the problem.

And in the end it is you, who missed the idea. Even Grumpy argues, that those potions are powerful (and I can only agree). And in the moment when you make something useful and powerful, it will be used as such, and there will be will to find how best to use it. Thinking this won't happen and people will sit on the powerful consumable ONLY for RP, which you can just emote is naïve. *drinks a tea in his chair*

In the end, I like this idea of drinks, but I am open to some polishing. Personally I would like to see some interaction with brew potion, maybe extended duration (there is tea from paper tea-bag, but there can be a tea made by master with different experience completely)

[The GrumpyCat]

And if you see many times some kind of pattern (like people being dissatisfied and complaining), then it shows there is some problem, and saying "no, just be positive" will for sure not solve the problem.

Whilst I don't argue with much else you've said, I will put in here that it doesn't ALWAYS mean there's a problem, it can also mean that it just isn't t o everyone's... taste.

There's going to be cases where we're going to get a lot of complaints (because we've got a lot of players) and people tend to complain more than they praise. To an extent this makes sense - no need to say anything if it's something you like, but if you don't there's the hope that saying 'I don't like it' will change it.

And there are some issues that arn't neccesarly black and white. Some issues that don't have easy answers, and that will bring in complaints no matter what we do, and times when we have to make changes that won't be fun for the player base, but are needed.

This example is a good one. These items are quite powerful in their own way, so we have to find a way of managing that power. If we don't do it via stacking options the other option MoonMoon put forth (and I agree) is ingredients. So say, maybe instead of dissalowing stacking, the drinks recipes make a 10 stack of each drink, but require one of the lesser runic materials.

This makes them more mechanically optimal sure, but puts them out of reach of more casual players. They're for those who can run-grind runics a few times a day with their guild. Which is... Ok I guess, But not really my prefernece.

So personaly I'm happy with them not stacking. Besides- it has the cool 'drink it whilst it's hot' situation that was implied earlier -meaning cooks might have to make the food 'on site' as it were.

[Rowlind Salem]

I don't mind the drink setup. I sell at 100/250/500/1000/2000/5000 scales for the various drinks and have moved goods at all those prices.

Though I think one change that would make them really stand out would be to make the buffs persistent across rest in the way that "well fed" prevents you from needing food/water for an extended period of time.

Mead would be especially useful for this in the context of sailing. Given the high DC of the item and the non-stacking of drinks, this could be justified.

[stoneheart-]

Imo the best and pretty much only way to rp/'sell' these things is to just carry the materials needed to make them..and make them only when you know 100% someone will buy them/use them.

You are wrong, I sell a lot of these drinks from my shop in a tavern. There is absolutely a market for these, and for the new herbalism foods. It just needs to be easier to stock them (stacking) and give them custom names/descriptions en masse.

[chocolatelover]

My character is in Guldorand with all the high levels... Perhaps that is why she can't sell hers? She's passed out free samples and everyone was like "meh" . Honestly when she self tested she wasn't super impressed. How are these so powerful they can't be stacked???

[chocolatelover]

My character is in Guldorand with all the high levels... Perhaps that is why she can't sell hers? She's passed out free samples and everyone was like "meh" . Honestly when she self tested she wasn't super impressed. How are these so powerful they can't be stacked???

[stoneheart-]

My shop is in Guldorand. People like them because they are special drinks. Many of them are stronger than module alcohol. If you give them special names, special descriptions, people are drawn to them. The new food, the new drinks, they're all geared toward social/food roleplay, so the more detail you can manage the better. Just chucking them in a shop after crafting them is meh. Create a "brand", make your drinks special, keep the prices reasonable. That's my advice. My drinks sell out almost daily.

But since these are single item stacks only, describing/renaming them is a big hassle. I hope fixing this is considered.

[chocolatelover]

Well, I have renamed the drinks, I have given out free samples, I have paid the town criers hundreds of gold to advertise WHEN I have a shop, cause I can only use temp stalls, AND I underprice you, but apparently I'm only running that temp stalls when no one else is on.

[chocolatelover]

Well, I have renamed the drinks, I have given out free samples, I have paid the town criers hundreds of gold to advertise WHEN I have a shop, cause I can only use temp stalls, AND I underprice you, but apparently I'm only running that temp stalls when no one else is on.

[Cagus]

And if you see many times some kind of pattern (like people being dissatisfied and complaining), then it shows there is some problem, and saying "no, just be positive" will for sure not solve the problem.

Whilst I don't argue with much else you've said, I will put in here that it doesn't ALWAYS mean there's a problem, it can also mean that it just isn't t o everyone's... taste.

I stand corrected. Sentence I wrote wasn't well refined.
You are right, there doesn't have to be a problem. Let's call it issue? I am not native speaker.

[Windows95 CD-ROM]

As someone who is not a herbalist and has been carrying some of the unstackable alcohols around to use in future roleplay, I agree that there is a genuine consideration to be had for changing the stack sizes to a higher number. This is really a quality of life thing - not everyone can make alcohol and drinks on the spot and it is rare that I have seen these herbalism alcohols used for anything outside of social and tavern roleplay (never have I seen them used in dungeons for example). Inventory space for characters in both shops and personal inventory is valuable too, since we don't have access to containers for storing these drinks, and we usually want to delegate shop space to things that we know are desirable and will sell.

The herbalism drinks are lovely because they come with unique icons (usually a lot more attractive than regular alcohols from vendors) and they can be renamed for roleplay uses if they're inclined to. If anyone has messed around with the description system knows it's a bit clunky to have to repeatedly rename/paste from pins for multiple different items in order. I feel like it would be a lot more respectful for the time of the player if they could simply name and re-describe these drinks in one stack. I am not entirely certain how a player would be expected to create multiple stacks of these alcohols before an event, and then individually rename them especially if they're a large quantity in bulk. It could take 20-30 minutes to them or even close to an hour if it is meant to be a large scale player event where they wanted to make unique alcohol. This is a valid concern that I do not think should be dismissed.

I've also heard worries that these drinks are overpowered, and I am not entirely certain if that is the case. I know there is a brew that grants immunity to poison which appears to be rather short lived, and one that gives a short lived bonus to will saves? These do not seem like overly potent benefits, and if there is a genuine concern for the overpowered nature I believe a re-design or downgrade of the abilities needs to be thoughtfully considered, especially the regeneration brew if this one is of special concern.

I would genuinely implore people to try out the herbalism system for themselves for a few months and try to make use of these drinks themselves in game to better understand how they are used and how people would want to make use of them in game for the cost of crafting, stacking in inventory, or general roleplay and gameplay.

[MissEvelyn]

I believe that by making them actual drinks, very much social items, but having them function like potions and elixirs, adventuring items, was a mistake.

People have pointed out these drinks are so tedious to use for roleplaying social gatherings, and yet the very purpose of alcohol and drinks is socializing and fun.

Adventurers in the FR do not take their most expensive wines with them to dungeons. That would be ridiculous and serve no purpose other than potentially becoming an easier target for deadly monsters.

Elixirs, potions, and vials, on the other hand, are excellent tools in helping you survive the worst of monsters in the darkest of places.

At the risk of sounding like a suggestion (because it is), change the powerful drinks into powerful potions of some variety, and let us have customizable social drinks that do not give any mechanical benefits but also lets us stack them.

[Irongron]

As I've said for several years I'm not comfortable with mundane items giving runescapey mechanical benefits (see the int boosting fish many years ago), and have asked that any item granting some supernatural/magical bonus be given a supernatural/magical component.

Though Arelith does have a history of said items (see very same fish), and I'm not so aghast as to drop everything, fly home (I'm actually away and have been for last 2 months), and demand a reversal, and I'm definitely not going to lose any sleep over this.

Player feedback is great to see, always, and I've every faith in the developer to choose a way forward. Arelith is often built by trial, error and feedback in such cases.

[Dreams]

Well these have been in for more than a year. All people have been asking for since they went in is for them to be stackable, because it’s frustrating not only for inventory management but for stocking in a store.

If they’re so OP that they can’t be stacked, why can we stack 100 Mords Scrolls + 100 WoF scrolls in the same amount of space as only one of these bottles?

[Definately Not A Mimic]

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=44351

This was the last thread on this topic before this one got resurrected so brought it over for the response from MoonMoon to be available here.