"Spirit VFX makes no sense applied to others"

[MageTankTech]

Are you saying Shamans can only summon the spirits of animals? I was lead to believe they were a tad more flexible than that.

Or is this to suggest they summon human souls and stick them inside fleshy corpses instead of just animating the bodies with negative energy? If that's the case can we tie Undead DCs to something aside from Necromancy?

I'd like to think the "spirit vfx applies to all summons" would simply be in line with the reasoning that a spirit isn't neccesarily going to look like how it did when it was alive.

For my part I was honestly planning to RP the elemental summons with the ghostly VFX as the ghosts of christmas past, present and...err ancient tribal spirits taking on more powerful forms to aid the shaman.

Maybe at least make it an optional thing that can be toggled on/off for people who want to play more spiritual shaman and less nature/necromancy/elementalist Shaman?

Quick extra question, do the Ghostly VFX still apply to Planar Conduit? If that is the case and if this doesn't get changed I will probably just ditch conjuration in favor of that in epic levels seeing as "animal" summon variety drops off pretty early in favor of elementals.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

1. Summon 1-6, or 1-5 if you're conjuration focused, will have the spirit VFX applied. These are the animal summons.

2. Elementals are not spirits, they are physical beings. Them having the VFX makes no sense.

3. Planar Conduit, again, are physical beings: outsiders. WYSIWYG.

[xf1313]

Spirit VFX with some undead works rather cool, well, not Ghoul or mummies, they look scarier in flesh. But drowned dead become drowned spirits, makes sense right? And Ghost has that glow to begin with.

When I tested on pgcc, shaman Planer Conducts were ghosty, I kind of wish they were not.

[MageTankTech]

1. Summon 1-6, or 1-5 if you're conjuration focused, will have the spirit VFX applied. These are the animal summons.

2. Elementals are not spirits, they are physical beings. Them having the VFX makes no sense.

3. Planar Conduit, again, are physical beings: outsiders. WYSIWYG.

1. Sooo, what you are saying is ghost summons are for pets.

2. Druids shape shifting into animals makes sense but ghosts shape shifting into other things doesn't make sense? I'm not sure what kind of box you are stuck in but it has a very weird shape.

3. Alright, I get it, you prefer shamans that are basically Druids or Necromancers. No ghost summoning allowed unless it's tied to nature.

[Ork]

Be nice.

[Ebonstar]

actually it makes total sense for elementals and planar conduit to be spectral.

Shamans are not druids or necromancers, they are conduits to the spirit realm, so while they may be able to summon elementals and such at upper levels its still from the spirit realm they are summoned from.

It also kills any summoning RP trying to explain that "hey i can summon spirits when im a newbie, but when im an old shaman, my magic now sucks and only summon crap like every other mage walking the Isle.

[MageTankTech]

Be nice.

I'm sorry, I would just like a bit more of an explaination for why something that is purely used for RP flavor is cut beyond "it doesn't make sense". That was literally the reason given in the update page and is the title of the topic of this thread.

As I stated already, Ghost shape shifting makes a lot more sense than Druid shape shifting and would be an easy explaination for why elementals and what not would have the Ghost VFX. And as a reminder not only is Druid Shape shifting a very flexible Aesthetic option but it's also heavily customized mechanically as well.

[MageTankTech]

It also kills any summoning RP trying to explain that "hey i can summon spirits when im a newbie, but when im an old shaman, my magic now sucks and only summon crap like every other mage walking the Isle.

Also, a hundred percent this. It's very disruptive to suddenly shift from summoning ghosts to not.

[MageTankTech]

Also, with regards to the "elementals are physical" arguement, I present this quote used by someone in a topic discussing Shaman Spirits as well.

In DnD, the word spirit can mean many things. We can use the explanation given by the Complete Divine sourcebook, where the 3.5 Spirit Shaman class comes from. According to it, the word spirit can be used to describe: all incorporeal undead, all fey, all elementals, creatures in astral form/bodies, creatures with the spirit subtype, spirit-folk and telthors, and spirit creatures created by spells like dream sight and wood wose.

Now, while this doesn't outright justify the spirit VFX part of this debate nor is it hard proof that elementals are ghosts it does lead credence to the arguement that an elemental is not considered to be a physical being by the official lore of the source material that Shaman originates from in the first place.

And since it is in fact being considered as a type of "spirit" aka something without a "physical form" in addition to it sitting alongside of a list of "spirit" type beings it stands to reason that it could, in theory, be used as a sub in form for a ghost.

Honestly, unless someone can dig up some obscure lore claiming that ghosts can't change shape I'm just going to go with that for my RP regardless of whether or not the ghost VFX is returned. Though, I do still hope it does come back as that was a fun little bit of added flare.

[xanrael]

Also, with regards to the "elementals are physical" arguement, I present this quote used by someone in a topic discussing Shaman Spirits as well.

In DnD, the word spirit can mean many things. We can use the explanation given by the Complete Divine sourcebook, where the 3.5 Spirit Shaman class comes from. According to it, the word spirit can be used to describe: all incorporeal undead, all fey, all elementals, creatures in astral form/bodies, creatures with the spirit subtype, spirit-folk and telthors, and spirit creatures created by spells like dream sight and wood wose.

Now, while this doesn't outright justify the spirit VFX part of this debate nor is it hard proof that elementals are ghosts it does lead credence to the arguement that an elemental is not considered to be a physical being by the official lore of the source material that Shaman originates from in the first place.

And since it is in fact being considered as a type of "spirit" aka something without a "physical form" in addition to it sitting alongside of a list of "spirit" type beings it stands to reason that it could, in theory, be used as a sub in form for a ghost.

Honestly, unless someone can dig up some obscure lore claiming that ghosts can't change shape I'm just going to go with that for my RP regardless of whether or not the ghost VFX is returned. Though, I do still hope it does come back as that was a fun little bit of added flare.

On ghosts in tabletop:

"Ghost" is an acquired template that can be added to any aberration, animal, dragon, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, or plant. The creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature) must have a Charisma score of at least 6.

Elementals are of type elemental, slaadi are of type outsider. They have the trait:

"Unlike most other living creatures, an [elemental/outsider] does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an [elemental/outsider] is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an [elemental/outsider]. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection, to restore it to life."

On spirits in tabletop:

From the same spirit shaman reference: "In the spirit shaman's worldview, elementals and fey are simply spirits of nature, and incorporeal undead are the spirits of the dead."

So a fire elemental would be a spirit in the spirit shaman sense but wouldn't have some special look being summoned by a shaman, a stock fire elemental qualifies as a "spirit" whether it is summoned by a wizard, shaman, found by itself, etc.

As far as RP goes, nothing stopping you from claiming (or your character believing) that your fire elemental is actually the ghost of your pet dog disguised as an elemental. My wizard could claim their pixie is actually a dragon in pixie form and believe it with all their heart because their pixie familiar tricked them and wisdom is my character's dump stat.

[Spriggan Bride]

Saying this with all respect and not meaning to complain but I just wish the glow was an option not mandatory. I think it's causing needless confusion (especially now that there's an undead beast stream which- is that tied to animal spirits? I feel like it is and isn't and no answer is right) and puts barriers on a class that has a lot of room for interpretation.

[MageTankTech]

On ghosts in tabletop:

"Ghost" is an acquired template that can be added to any aberration, animal, dragon, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, or plant. The creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature) must have a Charisma score of at least 6.

Elementals are of type elemental, slaadi are of type outsider. They have the trait:

"Unlike most other living creatures, an [elemental/outsider] does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an [elemental/outsider] is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an [elemental/outsider]. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection, to restore it to life."

On spirits in tabletop:

From the same spirit shaman reference: "In the spirit shaman's worldview, elementals and fey are simply spirits of nature, and incorporeal undead are the spirits of the dead."

So a fire elemental would be a spirit in the spirit shaman sense but wouldn't have some special look being summoned by a shaman, a stock fire elemental qualifies as a "spirit" whether it is summoned by a wizard, shaman, found by itself, etc.

As far as RP goes, nothing stopping you from claiming (or your character believing) that your fire elemental is actually the ghost of your pet dog disguised as an elemental. My wizard could claim their pixie is actually a dragon in pixie form and believe it with all their heart because their pixie familiar tricked them and wisdom is my character's dump stat.

So, does that mean if you damage the body of an Outsider you are damaging it's soul at the same time? I am surprised the concept of being injured and being scarred doesn't hold a greater level of concern for outsiders. Also, wouldn't that mean outsiders are natural monks? Seeing as a big part of being a monk is strengthening the link between mind, body and soul? How would that RP even be handled by them? The outsider race might be an interesting thing to play around with in RP.

And yeah, I know I can just kind of claim whatever. Illusions and magical stuff are rampant enough in this fictional world that anyone can believe and claim pretty much anything with at least some credibility being given to them. I just found the ghostly vfx to be neat and with how mechanically complex some of the other classes are I was kind of hoping for a bit more aesthetic flare for the Shaman. To help differentiate it a bit from a Cleric or Druid that decided for whatever reason to act like a Shaman.

For the concept of the RP I had planned for my Shaman, specifically, as a follower of Kelevmor who focused on communing with spirits and helping restless ones to find peace. If I were to shift said idea onto a Cleric it would be functionally the same, there would be nothing tying it down to Shaman and that seems kind of sad. By comparison, Druids can -Balance environments allowing them to enact their will upon nature as needed, Animal Empathy control animals to keep uneccesary violence to a minimum, have a companion animal to always take a part of nature with them wherever they go, shapeshift into animals to grow even closer to nature and tend to plants to ensure nature thrives. Druids have so much mechanical support for their RP whereas all Shaman has is; less than what Druid has for nature and nothing for spiritual. It was just nice to finally see something that supported Shaman's supposed spiritual connections a bit more and sad to see it taken away.

[MageTankTech]

Saying this with all respect and not meaning to complain but I just wish the glow was an option not mandatory. I think it's causing needless confusion (especially now that there's an undead beast stream which- is that tied to animal spirits? I feel like it is and isn't and no answer is right) and puts barriers on a class that has a lot of room for interpretation.

I mean, with the glow only being on the early animal summons and with how quickly one burns through levels it's not a huge deal. On the other hand since part of being a Shaman is the potential to be a discount Druid it seems a bit silly to restrict them to just animal ghosts. Also, if they were to give it back to later summons I would agree that optional is best. After all, if they are summoning "Actual" elementals and outsiders it would be kind of silly for them to glow like ghosts. Given that, as it is stated in the info on Shaman that their "source" can be alot of things, including but not limited to, deities, nature, the elemental planes, and spirits.

Regarding the beast spirit stream, supposedly it is an "evil" spirit stream. Instead of being asked for aid the beast spirit is forced to appear and is then altered against it's will into something grotesque and malignant. At least that is my understanding of the original intent behind it. Also, more proof that ghosts can shape shift .

[xanrael]

So, does that mean if you damage the body of an Outsider you are damaging it's soul at the same time? I am surprised the concept of being injured and being scarred doesn't hold a greater level of concern for outsiders. Also, wouldn't that mean outsiders are natural monks? Seeing as a big part of being a monk is strengthening the link between mind, body and soul? How would that RP even be handled by them? The outsider race might be an interesting thing to play around with in RP.

And yeah, I know I can just kind of claim whatever. Illusions and magical stuff are rampant enough in this fictional world that anyone can believe and claim pretty much anything with at least some credibility being given to them. I just found the ghostly vfx to be neat and with how mechanically complex some of the other classes are I was kind of hoping for a bit more aesthetic flare for the Shaman. To help differentiate it a bit from a Cleric or Druid that decided for whatever reason to act like a Shaman.

For the concept of the RP I had planned for my Shaman, specifically, as a follower of Kelevmor who focused on communing with spirits and helping restless ones to find peace. If I were to shift said idea onto a Cleric it would be functionally the same, there would be nothing tying it down to Shaman and that seems kind of sad. By comparison, Druids can -Balance environments allowing them to enact their will upon nature as needed, Animal Empathy control animals to keep uneccesary violence to a minimum, have a companion animal to always take a part of nature with them wherever they go, shapeshift into animals to grow even closer to nature and tend to plants to ensure nature thrives. Druids have so much mechanical support for their RP whereas all Shaman has is; less than what Druid has for nature and nothing for spiritual. It was just nice to finally see something that supported Shaman's supposed spiritual connections a bit more and sad to see it taken away.

If they're not summoned and are on their home plane basically yeah, damage is effectively harming both at the same time and death (barring plot armor or very high level magic) means their obliteration from existence.

As far as the concept, a few ideas:
- Shamans have both Dominate Monster and Control Undead allowing to bring restless spirits to heel and can RP out finding them peace.

- As you were already going the "summoning" route, beast spirits and ghosts are available for shamans (latter by learning the stream or dipping dirge). You're likely to run afoul of paladins and anyone else in the good camp (or even other followers of Kelevmor) as you're cavorting with evil undead. Likewise your character could struggle with trying to put them to rest ASAP or taking "slight" advantage of their power for "the greater good" risking a slide into evil on a road paved by good intentions. Even if it did lead to a slide into an evil alignment a character can still feel justified in their actions, just because there is a cosmic definition of good, evil, law, and chaos doesn't mean an individual character has to agree with it whether due to obsession, delusion, etc. Or it could lead to redemption as other PCs get involved to convince your character they're going down a dark path etc.

[Spriggan Bride]

Thing is almost everything written in this thread is speculation barely based on sparse actual lore and a lot of it is to justify why there's even a glow. If it's going to be this nebulous I'd like to have the option to not have glowing animals and go my own way.

[MageTankTech]

Thing is almost everything written in this thread is speculation barely based on sparse actual lore and a lot of it is to justify why there's even a glow. If it's going to be this nebulous I'd like to have the option to not have glowing animals and go my own way.

No one is arguing with you about wanting it to be optional. I just would like the option to "exist" in the first place.

[MageTankTech]

If they're not summoned and are on their home plane basically yeah, damage is effectively harming both at the same time and death (barring plot armor or very high level magic) means their obliteration from existence.

As far as the concept, a few ideas:
- Shamans have both Dominate Monster and Control Undead allowing to bring restless spirits to heel and can RP out finding them peace.

- As you were already going the "summoning" route, beast spirits and ghosts are available for shamans (latter by learning the stream or dipping dirge). You're likely to run afoul of paladins and anyone else in the good camp (or even other followers of Kelevmor) as you're cavorting with evil undead. Likewise your character could struggle with trying to put them to rest ASAP or taking "slight" advantage of their power for "the greater good" risking a slide into evil on a road paved by good intentions. Even if it did lead to a slide into an evil alignment a character can still feel justified in their actions, just because there is a cosmic definition of good, evil, law, and chaos doesn't mean an individual character has to agree with it whether due to obsession, delusion, etc. Or it could lead to redemption as other PCs get involved to convince your character they're going down a dark path etc.

Not sure how many of the undead on the server are not just negative energy conduits.

My character is a pure neutral situation focused on their own goals and agenda. The "greater good" would not really be of huge concern to them. The entire reason they became a follow of Kelevmor in the first place was to bring peace to the spirits of their own tribe which did not have very peaceful deaths.

I had planned on the RP basically being them traveling around with said spirits trying to help them come to terms with their deaths which is why I was kind of attached to the whole "ghost summoning" concept.

[xanrael]

If they're not summoned and are on their home plane basically yeah, damage is effectively harming both at the same time and death (barring plot armor or very high level magic) means their obliteration from existence.

As far as the concept, a few ideas:
- Shamans have both Dominate Monster and Control Undead allowing to bring restless spirits to heel and can RP out finding them peace.

- As you were already going the "summoning" route, beast spirits and ghosts are available for shamans (latter by learning the stream or dipping dirge). You're likely to run afoul of paladins and anyone else in the good camp (or even other followers of Kelevmor) as you're cavorting with evil undead. Likewise your character could struggle with trying to put them to rest ASAP or taking "slight" advantage of their power for "the greater good" risking a slide into evil on a road paved by good intentions. Even if it did lead to a slide into an evil alignment a character can still feel justified in their actions, just because there is a cosmic definition of good, evil, law, and chaos doesn't mean an individual character has to agree with it whether due to obsession, delusion, etc. Or it could lead to redemption as other PCs get involved to convince your character they're going down a dark path etc.

Not sure how many of the undead on the server are not just negative energy conduits.

My character is a pure neutral situation focused on their own goals and agenda. The "greater good" would not really be of huge concern to them. The entire reason they became a follow of Kelevmor in the first place was to bring peace to the spirits of their own tribe which did not have very peaceful deaths.

I had planned on the RP basically being them traveling around with said spirits trying to help them come to terms with their deaths which is why I was kind of attached to the whole "ghost summoning" concept.

You mention ghosts directly, and I think a deceased tribesman who has attachments to life would probably wind up as one and the goals of your character make sense in that context as ghosts reform until their attachment/fetter is broken/resolved. I think the new undead streams can work well for this in that ghosts are an available option.

It also would be easy for a third party to understand what you're talking about with a humanoid ghost right there as well.

You're likely to run into contention with non-evil types but personally I think it can be fun to play characters that don't fit neatly inside the good/evil teams and instead of going for the "friends with everyone" approach have to suffer a bit for it and make their own way due to their strong motivation.

[MageTankTech]

If they're not summoned and are on their home plane basically yeah, damage is effectively harming both at the same time and death (barring plot armor or very high level magic) means their obliteration from existence.

As far as the concept, a few ideas:
- Shamans have both Dominate Monster and Control Undead allowing to bring restless spirits to heel and can RP out finding them peace.

- As you were already going the "summoning" route, beast spirits and ghosts are available for shamans (latter by learning the stream or dipping dirge). You're likely to run afoul of paladins and anyone else in the good camp (or even other followers of Kelevmor) as you're cavorting with evil undead. Likewise your character could struggle with trying to put them to rest ASAP or taking "slight" advantage of their power for "the greater good" risking a slide into evil on a road paved by good intentions. Even if it did lead to a slide into an evil alignment a character can still feel justified in their actions, just because there is a cosmic definition of good, evil, law, and chaos doesn't mean an individual character has to agree with it whether due to obsession, delusion, etc. Or it could lead to redemption as other PCs get involved to convince your character they're going down a dark path etc.

Not sure how many of the undead on the server are not just negative energy conduits.

My character is a pure neutral situation focused on their own goals and agenda. The "greater good" would not really be of huge concern to them. The entire reason they became a follow of Kelevmor in the first place was to bring peace to the spirits of their own tribe which did not have very peaceful deaths.

I had planned on the RP basically being them traveling around with said spirits trying to help them come to terms with their deaths which is why I was kind of attached to the whole "ghost summoning" concept.

You mention ghosts directly, and I think a deceased tribesman who has attachments to life would probably wind up as one and the goals of your character make sense in that context as ghosts reform until their attachment/fetter is broken/resolved. I think the new undead streams can work well for this in that ghosts are an available option.

It also would be easy for a third party to understand what you're talking about with a humanoid ghost right there as well.

You're likely to run into contention with non-evil types but personally I think it can be fun to play characters that don't fit neatly inside the good/evil teams and instead of going for the "friends with everyone" approach have to suffer a bit for it and make their own way due to their strong motivation.

Wasn't really planning on taking this in an antagonistic direction but there are merits to the idea. If one of the tribal ghosts that my character is trying to help pass on turns into a vengeful spirit it's not like it's their fault that the spirit won't pass on. They simply summoned the spirit to their specific location to try and help them with that.

Of course, by that point, I'm pretty sure most people would be yelling at them to find a priest to perform a forced departure rather than trying to calm them down.

I will have to take some time to mull over the concept for a bit. Not sure if it's for me but it "is" something for me to think about. I kind of wish they would give both positive and negative ghost summoning streams. That would really make this concept feel alot more dynamic if not every ghost was malicious. Though I suppose I could just leave the softer/nicer ones for the animal ghosts that Shaman still has if nothing else.

Then again, if this aesthetic is in danger of going away I might not want to plan anything around it. You know, as nice as the constant updates are it does make it a little difficult to plan out consistent RP.

[Kenji]

1. Summon 1-6, or 1-5 if you're conjuration focused, will have the spirit VFX applied. These are the animal summons.

2. Elementals are not spirits, they are physical beings. Them having the VFX makes no sense.

3. Planar Conduit, again, are physical beings: outsiders. WYSIWYG.

1. Sooo, what you are saying is ghost summons are for pets.

2. Druids shape shifting into animals makes sense but ghosts shape shifting into other things doesn't make sense? I'm not sure what kind of box you are stuck in but it has a very weird shape.

3. Alright, I get it, you prefer shamans that are basically Druids or Necromancers. No ghost summoning allowed unless it's tied to nature.

Let me point out that Shaman was first introduced by Aniel, Garrbear, and BHR55.
The Team then updated its spellbook with more thematic spells and unique crafts.
Aniel then gave it the transparent ghost VFX before the Undead Stream Update.
I then worked on its multiclass mechanics.
Then SK finally gave it many new Undead options with the Stream Update.

Why mention the history of development? Because not one developer makes all the changes, and certainly not all of them were done at a whim. This was over the span of 2 years with a handful of contributors.

Developing is very time-consuming and often thankless volunteer background work. Passive-aggressive, sarcastic tones like this most definitely do not help us keep our volunteers motivated, especially towards devs like SK, who did not introduce the Ghost VFX in the first place.

I recommend giving feedback without as many subjective emotional rants, contentious wording, or smug attitudes. Just give cold, hard facts. These facts can be number-crunching, actual lore from sourcebooks, builds, or in-world references. Let's be constructive, not destructive.

[MageTankTech]

1. Summon 1-6, or 1-5 if you're conjuration focused, will have the spirit VFX applied. These are the animal summons.

2. Elementals are not spirits, they are physical beings. Them having the VFX makes no sense.

3. Planar Conduit, again, are physical beings: outsiders. WYSIWYG.

1. Sooo, what you are saying is ghost summons are for pets.

2. Druids shape shifting into animals makes sense but ghosts shape shifting into other things doesn't make sense? I'm not sure what kind of box you are stuck in but it has a very weird shape.

3. Alright, I get it, you prefer shamans that are basically Druids or Necromancers. No ghost summoning allowed unless it's tied to nature.

Let me point out that Shaman was first introduced by Aniel, Garrbear, and BHR55.
The Team then updated its spellbook with more thematic spells and unique crafts.
Aniel then gave it the transparent ghost VFX before the Undead Stream Update.
I then worked on its multiclass mechanics.
Then SK finally gave it many new Undead options with the Stream Update.

Why mention the history of development? Because not one developer makes all the changes, and certainly not all of them were done at a whim. This was over the span of 2 years with a handful of contributors.

Developing is very time-consuming and often thankless volunteer background work. Passive-aggressive, sarcastic tones like this most definitely do not help us keep our volunteers motivated, especially towards devs like SK, who did not introduce the Ghost VFX in the first place.

I recommend giving feedback without as many subjective emotional rants, contentious wording, or smug attitudes. Just give cold, hard facts. These facts can be number-crunching, actual lore from sourcebooks, builds, or in-world references. Let's be constructive, not destructive.

Be nice.

I'm sorry, I would just like a bit more of an explaination for why something that is purely used for RP flavor is cut beyond "it doesn't make sense". That was literally the reason given in the update page and is the title of the topic of this thread.

If you state something and someone asks for an explaination. Please do not answer it by stating what basically amounts to the same thing. It makes them feel like you don't really care about their concerns and are just trying to address the issue in whatever way is easiest.

Also, I apologize for not knowing who did what. I wasn't trying to demean anyone for their work I just wanted a more detailed explanation for why a neat aesthetic was taken away.