Monkey Grip

[CharmedRidge]

Now that we have colossal weapons, can we get monkey grip so non giants can fight giants and not get massive disarm penalties against them? Two handed weapons are bad now compared to them!

[Hazard]

I feel like two handed weapons really need some love. That massive sacrifice in AC just isn't worth it.
Probably more love than just monkey grip, although that would be a start.

[Richrd]

Just give two handed weapon users a shield AC bonus to their weapons that scales with their STR and level.

Nothing that would end up giving them equal to or more AC than they would get from using a shield. But some form of bonus would be good enough to at least level the playing field a bit.

Maybe make this a feature exclusive to the currently weaker melee classes, like STR classes and rangers.

And no, this should not apply to double-ended weapons.

[Skibbles]

I think we're sooner in need of a serious examination of the disarm bug "feature" after this update before we start adding features to this. I'm not sure having a native, spammable, free ~+5 ab on all attacks is going to be anything but broken.

Edit: checked my math. my original estimate was too high. +1 two hand, -4 imp dis, +8 huge vs medium. not counting huge str bonuses for being most large races.

[Arienette]

Reduce the bonus but do not eliminate it.

Characters using small and tiny weapons have to be aware that someone with a large weapon might be apt to use Disarm on them.

There’s nothing fundamentally wrong with medium weapon users having to accommodate the same thing.

People in a panic over the idea that someday they might PvP a Large creature and be at a disadvantage (the same as every hin and gnome ever)? Never change Arelith.

[Lacki]

Just give two handed weapon users a shield AC bonus to their weapons that scales with their STR and level.

Nothing that would end up giving them equal to or more AC than they would get from using a shield. But some form of bonus would be good enough to at least level the playing field a bit.

Maybe make this a feature exclusive to the currently weaker melee classes, like STR classes and rangers.

And no, this should not apply to double-ended weapons.

Why not just let Parry's shield bonus work with two-handed weapons as well as one-handed ones? If you think about it, if you're using a two-handed weapon, you're giving up a whole slot which could have stat boosts, special abilities, and so on.

I guess that the damage boost is what sets it apart from a one-handed weapon, and one-handed weapons would need another bonus to make up for the fact that their Parry gimmick was no longer exclusive, but this seems like the fairest option. Invest skills to use your weapon better.

Discipline is a tax anyway if you're hoping to do melee (and it doesn't even work half the time, even if you're a STR-user who's maxed it out), so more skill taxes can't necessarily hurt, even if they suck to invest in.

[Xerah]

There's some NWNX stuff that is getting worked on for this

The difference between a longsword and a 2h weapon in 1h isn't really that huge. The difference between 1d8 v 2d6 is something, but weapon damage isn't where the strength of a weapon comes from; that's not even considering the -2AB.

[Skibbles]

Reduce the bonus but do not eliminate it.

Characters using small and tiny weapons have to be aware that someone with a large weapon might be apt to use Disarm on them.

There’s nothing fundamentally wrong with medium weapon users having to accommodate the same thing.

People in a panic over the idea that someday they might PvP a Large creature and be at a disadvantage (the same as every hin and gnome ever)? Never change Arelith.

Being a medium PC taking disarm to fight a halfling doesn't compare to being a large creature taking disarm to have what equates to three-four free epic weapon focuses on a single pre-epic feat against everything. Not to mention the actual disarming part of the feat on top of it.

Someone might check my math but ogre +6 str, +4 on most imp disarm attacks, is +10 native ab on all attacks since this ability can be chained at no risk. Since this can be used in IE last I checked, this could also equate to free AC at full AB.

Large creatures are 'rare' or maybe even unseen on the surface but in the UD it's not just a passing 'what if' to be dismissed; ogres are numerous enough to form factions.

If disarm remains completely unchecked, this number will swiftly rise out of the previous tiefling meta and then it'll be a real problem. This, alongside the announcement of award rolls soon to be on a timer, we could see a massive population explosion of large creatures very soon.

Edit: Also I agree the bonus does not need to be elimated. I'm calling for an examination, not a removal.

Edit2: checked my math. my original estimate was too high. +1 two hand, -4 imp dis, +8 huge vs medium. not counting huge str bonuses for being most large races.

[Arienette]

Right, and I agree that some reduction of the AB bonus (or a cap? Or both?) is almost certainly appropriate. But I also know the knee jerk reaction from many players will basically be: “This is new and I don’t like it, disable it completely!”

Which would be lame.

[Waldo52]

I agree with the sentiment that two hander "builds" need some love. I'm pretty ignorant on this subject, but I know that sword and board or TWF builds have more AC and attacks respectively, and give you more item/rune slots.

The other day I saw a ranger who chose to wield one big weapon for flavor reasons and the character looked amazing. I'm sure the dev team can give this fighting style some love.

[Skibbles]

Right, and I agree that some reduction of the AB bonus (or a cap? Or both?) is almost certainly appropriate. But I also know the knee jerk reaction from many players will basically be: “This is new and I don’t like it, disable it completely!”

Which would be lame.

Yeah sounds like we're in agreement. I was thinking of either like a cap, or keep it mechanically as-is but have a timer to make it once per round or a brief cooldown or some mixture of both.

[Wrips]

General 2-h has been overnerfed and colossal weapons are super out of line and, I believe, will be balanced by the team.

[xf1313]

I like the idea of giving parry ac to two handed weapons, makes sense after all.

Would the npc giants and Ogres have massive weapons now? Need to see how that goes for dungeons!

[Svrtr]

I like the idea of giving parry ac to two handed weapons, makes sense after all.

Would the npc giants and Ogres have massive weapons now? Need to see how that goes for dungeons!

Not considering pvp, that doesn’t happen every day and should be optional and with consent (report the kill bashers and make them stop)

Would you like for a build to get both 1.5x damage and 6 AC, the same AC as an addy tower shield when normally the weakness of 2h builds is their low AC? Or 62 AC 2h CoT builds?

[Shadowy Reality]

Maybe 2h weapons should have their damage properties scaled. So masterly damask would be 9 damage, not 6.

[xf1313]

I like the idea of giving parry ac to two handed weapons, makes sense after all.

Would the npc giants and Ogres have massive weapons now? Need to see how that goes for dungeons!

Not considering pvp, that doesn’t happen every day and should be optional and with consent (report the kill bashers and make them stop)

Would you like for a build to get both 1.5x damage and 6 AC, the same AC as an addy tower shield when normally the weakness of 2h builds is their low AC? Or 62 AC 2h CoT builds?

Like...if I play a pal or a fighter, I would get hesitant choosing a large weapon due to the lost of ac (not much to begin with, so the lost is hard).

Always know high cha cot is good with divine shield, never played one yet lol.

[Atlus]

I'm a simple man with simple desires.

I just want the feat added to gain access to colossal swords on a medium sized character so I can live the jrpg protagonist dream. You can't just add a buster sword and not let a skinny lad with spiky hair wield it.

[Hunter548]

Monkey Grip-esque effects are kind of missing the problem, to my mind. They don't actually make two-handing any better, they just mean sometimes your greatsword is just a big longsword.

If two handed weapons are weak, then they should be buffed in their niche rather than made into one handed weapons with a penalty.

[MRFTW]

I'm a simple man with simple desires.

I just want the feat added to gain access to colossal swords on a medium sized character so I can live the jrpg protagonist dream. You can't just add a buster sword and not let a skinny lad with spiky hair wield it.

The same feat could allow small races to use large weapons. Scythe wielding Halfling Harvester, anyone?

[Atlus]

The same feat could allow small races to use large weapons. Scythe wielding Halfling Harvester, anyone?

Exactly. We need hins with big honkin' polearms.

[Xerah]

Monkey Grip-esque effects are kind of missing the problem, to my mind. They don't actually make two-handing any better, they just mean sometimes your greatsword is just a big longsword.

If two handed weapons are weak, then they should be buffed in their niche rather than made into one handed weapons with a penalty.

-2 AB makes it a super objectively bad feat with the only redeeming qualities as visuals.

[Kenji]

Monkey Grip allows 4 extra interactions:

1. Allows a creature to equip a weapon that is 2 sizes greater as a 2H weapon
2. Allows a creature to equip a 2H weapon (1 size greater) and a shield
3. Allows a creature to dual-wield a 2H weapon (1 size greater) with an offhand weapon (same size or less)
4. Minimizes the dual-wield penalty for double same-size weapons to -2/-2, the same as one would dual-wielding a same-size weapon and a light weapon.

Only #1, #2, and #4 will likely be introduced, pending more internal discussions and player feedback in the future. #3 will likely not be introduced due to animation problems (see section 2 below).

#2 and #4 are already doable, #1 still requires further investigation and testing.

We're still ironing out two things before Monkey Grip can become a thing:
1. Balance
Note: This is not solely pertinent to Monkey Grip as a feat, but more to the implementation of huge weapons.
Huge weapons are currently size 5 (for reference, Medium is 3 and Large is 4). This means the Disarm (improved disarm, for that matter) would gain a massive bonus vs. any medium-sized or smaller weapons. Numbers can be referenced here:
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=34676&p=272650&hil ... rm#p272650
(See the mechanics section with Disarm analysis, but add 4 AB to all of those numbers)

Because of how improved disarm and monkey grip would be a 3-feat investment already, the handicap for enabling monkey grip must also be taking some AB (2) away. It's possible to change Huge Weapons into mechanical Large weapons with scripted restrictions, but then, as mentioned by others, monkey grip would just be an aesthetics but mechanically inferior choice (malus to AB and bonus to few extra dmg is seldom worth it).

My take is that it is okay for Monkey Grip to be solely aesthetics and nothing too mechanical, mind you. I don't think it's in our immersive interest to have any build with a spare feat wielding an oversized weapon that would likely detract from the experience. So making Monkey Grip mechanically inferior isn't necessarily a bad take from that perspective.

2. Animation
Note: This will be more of a dev note that will serve to inform. It might be a bit technical, but anyone with experience is more than welcome to chip in.
Our current iteration of Monkey Grip is to change the creature size via NWNX the moment before equipping a weapon 2 sizes larger than the creature. This, however, resulted in the following animation:

The character began to use unarmed animation for attacks instead of the double-grip animation.

Another approach is to utilize the polymorph functionalities to change the creature's appearance to a large-sized creature before changing it back. This, however, isn't as seamless as changing the creature size via NWNX. It should fix the animation problem at the expense of immersion. Seeing many people shapeshifting into a giant and then back every time they equip a huge weapon can be disjarring.

We could potentially change only the character appearance type as that is tied to creature sizes, but it may cause problems with character customizations where the wrong color or even wrong head, body phenotype, or equipment customization may not return to the original state. This'll require further testing.

As for the other animations, here they are:
Dual-wield 2H:


2H w/ shield:


The dual-wield 2H animation isn't much of an eye-candy, which is why 2H dual-wield isn't being introduced. The 2H w/ shield is acceptable to a degree.

Given enough time and testing, we may just find a way to do Monkey Grip while making it as seamless as possible and with no animation hiccups, but no promises yet. I wouldn't hold my breath for this.

[Brandon Steel]

Not considering pvp, that doesn’t happen every day and should be optional and with consent (report the kill bashers and make them stop)

…What?

[xf1313]

Not considering pvp, that doesn’t happen every day and should be optional and with consent (report the kill bashers and make them stop)

…What?

This is very off topic thou, guess I should edit my original post

[Xerah]

This is not the place for you to call out people you think are “kill bashers”. If you have a report to make, then file it with the DMs and leave the commentary, on what could very much be a legitimate, non rule breaking interaction, to the DMs to rule on.