Drow SR

[FingerVacation]

Hey,

While I understand a nerf is required every now and then I keep asking myself, what does the drow have going for them at the moment?

26 sr/helmet of protection is a necessity for a caster. 32 sr mostly helped against the wof scroll spam that tends to come down in pvp. Some dungeons might have casting enemies, but that 32 sr doesn't do much against the casters in the late game dungeons - mostly speaking out of practical experience here. As an example the Maur tends to come in groups of 1- 3 casters, which pelts you with igms. It's barely noticable that you've got sr, unless you got a cleric.

So in short, the nerf down to 26 is way too harsh, 32 sr made it semi worth since drow lose out on a major gift.
In pvp, I wouldn't say that the sr made any difference, unless you're facing a PM, any 27/3 would be fine piercing that sr mostly since most casters start off with a mord's/breach anyway.

If sr is a huge problem from a balance point of veiw, my suggestion is simply removing it and allowing drow to take a second major gift. That would at least put them on par with the other elven races from a mechanical perspective.

Now I see a lot of issues with this as well, obviously.

The reason for this post, is that there's been a few changes to drow that have more impact than some might realise, the light sensitivity as another example is punishing, that sr kept people safe from scrolls at least and it certainly won't now.

I tried to keep this post a bit shorter, and concise though I would gladly elaborate if needed.

[Svrtr]

Even with only 1 major gift, drow are still unique in their massive stat advantage.

Where most races get +6 stats and a -2, drow sit at +8 stats -2, not to mention drow uniques.

Throw on on top their FREE SR which need I remind you before had a whole 90% CHANCE TO ENTIRELY NEGATE A WoF scroll, them still having 26 free SR is immensely useful against scrolls and in PvE. Instead of 90% chance, now its 60% but still free.

They are still massively better than other elves, for this free SR and relative stat bonus over other elves.

[xf1313]

My experience with my drow character is... I hardly felt the change. Same reason as you posted, high lv casters beat the sr with out effort.

The 32 sr is mostly effective against some mobs while leveling (I am not pvp person so not sure how useful that is in pvp)

[FingerVacation]

Even with only 1 major gift, drow are still unique in their massive stat advantage.

Where most races get +6 stats and a -2, drow sit at +8 stats -2, not to mention drow uniques.

Throw on on top their FREE SR which need I remind you before had a whole 90% CHANCE TO ENTIRELY NEGATE A WoF scroll, them still having 26 free SR is immensely useful against scrolls and in PvE.

I would trade that sr for another major any day. The dex/int/cha only helps with some builds. The 26 sr won't help a wm, or many other class combinations. It's also unlikely you'll need all of them for a build, esp with how dex builds are doing these days.

The drow could use something, due to that nerf. Compared to a human, or many other races - drow are not doing too good atm.
Drow uniques, such as rapid reload as a feat? Ranged is also having a rough time atm. Darkness on cd isn't that big of a deal.

There are class combinations that work very well with those stats, but then again, the 26 sr won't do enough. And I cannot say trading a major for that sr is even remotely worth it.

[Svrtr]

Ill refrain after here.

Suffice to say, 26 SR does a lot more than you think. 60% chance to outright ignore a WoF scroll is huge.

If drow became EVEN MORE stat ahead of every other race, that would be obscene. That they already net +2 over basically every other race, sometimes as much as +4, is absurd. +6 -2 is the standard, drow are +8 -2 while having all the other elf passives and more, +10 -2 is outright ludicrous, since in many circles drow are already seen as one of the best races to be because they're just elf++

[TimeAdept]

Svrtr is right, and to think Drow are actually disadvantaged in any way, shape, or form, is to be completely out of touch with how mechanics work on the server.

[Zanithar]

I would trade that sr for another major any day. The dex/int/cha only helps with some builds. The 26 sr won't help a wm, or many other class combinations. It's also unlikely you'll need all of them for a build, esp with how dex builds are doing these days.

The drow could use something, due to that nerf. Compared to a human, or many other races - drow are not doing too good atm.
Drow uniques, such as rapid reload as a feat? Ranged is also having a rough time atm. Darkness on cd isn't that big of a deal.

There are class combinations that work very well with those stats, but then again, the 26 sr won't do enough. And I cannot say trading a major for that sr is even remotely worth it.

Moon Elf (base race):
+2 Dex, -2 Con, No free feat, all the elf abilities
2 Major, 1 Minor

Drow Elf:
+2 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Cha, -2 Con, Rapid Reload, 26 SR, Darkness 1/day, Vulrn to Sunlight, all the elf abilities
1 Major, 1 Minor

So, a drow nets the equivalence of 3 Majors and 1 Minor in addition to being able to dump a helm of protection for another, better head gear and a couple of mediocre racial abilities. Plus a particularly nasty vulrn to sunlight to balance out their massive statline advantage over their base race and quite frankly every other race currently in the game.

Drow is the best race in the game currently and should probably be nerfed further to bring it into parity with the other races on the server.

And yes, that stat line does only help for some builds ... just like any racial stat line. But Half Orcs do not need "help" because they are sub optimal sorcerers ... and Drow do not need "help" because they are sub optimal Barbarians. Drow excel in their niche and that niche is a relevant, broad and powerful one.

[FingerVacation]

Svrtr is right, and to think Drow are actually disadvantaged in any way, shape, or form, is to be completely out of touch with how mechanics work on the server.

Easy there. Blunt responses aside, there are definitely downsides to playing a drow. Some come in mechanical form, some other just come with the race and will have an impact in a mechanical aspect one way or another.

[FingerVacation]

I would trade that sr for another major any day. The dex/int/cha only helps with some builds. The 26 sr won't help a wm, or many other class combinations. It's also unlikely you'll need all of them for a build, esp with how dex builds are doing these days.

The drow could use something, due to that nerf. Compared to a human, or many other races - drow are not doing too good atm.
Drow uniques, such as rapid reload as a feat? Ranged is also having a rough time atm. Darkness on cd isn't that big of a deal.

There are class combinations that work very well with those stats, but then again, the 26 sr won't do enough. And I cannot say trading a major for that sr is even remotely worth it.

Moon Elf (base race):
+2 Dex, -2 Con, No free feat, all the elf abilities
2 Major, 1 Minor

Drow Elf:
+2 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Cha, -2 Con, Rapid Reload, 26 SR, Darkness 1/day, Vulrn to Sunlight, all the elf abilities
1 Major, 1 Minor

So, a drow nets the equivalence of 3 Majors and 1 Minor in addition to being able to dump a helm of protection for another, better head gear and a couple of mediocre racial abilities. Plus a particularly nasty vulrn to sunlight to balance out their massive statline advantage over their base race and quite frankly every other race currently in the game.

Drow is the best race in the game currently and should probably be nerfed further to bring it into parity with the other races on the server.

And yes, that stat line does only help for some builds ... just like any racial stat line. But Half Orcs do not need "help" because they are sub optimal wizards ... and Drow do not need "help" because they are sub optimal Barbarians. Drow excel in their niche and that niche is a relevant, broad and powerful one.

I think it should be niche, if I wasn't clear on it.
At the end of it, I simply look at what's possible to do with it. Essentially I am rounding it down to, "is this enough to be useful"?
And the answer I came up with is maybe.

[Zanithar]

So to be clear, that race has the widest niche in the game other than human. So word niche is barely suitable for Drow.

They are one of if not … the best race in the game for anything that is not a Strength, Wisdom or massively feat anemic build. And they are Competive across many wisdom builds and Divine strength builds. They are one of the most versatile and they are the strongest race in the game. Even if you dropped their SR completely they would still be these things.

With respect to is 26SR useful? It is absolutely useful. You can now swap your helm of protection for another helm and still be sitting on the strongest race chassis in the game for building ... with a better piece of head gear than any other race except the Deep Gnome, which is incidentally the one +2 Wis race in the game.

[Ithalan]

Throw on on top their FREE SR which need I remind you before had a whole 90% CHANCE TO ENTIRELY NEGATE A WoF scroll, them still having 26 free SR is immensely useful against scrolls and in PvE. Instead of 90% chance, now its 60% but still free.

A bit of a tangent here; why are WoF scrolls being singled out as an offensive scroll that needs to be competitive in PvP at level 30?

99% of offensive scrolls are practically useless at that level due character save bonuses vs. spells generally being high, while scroll DCs cap at 22 for 9th-level spells, and this is seemingly not viewed as a problem for any of the rest of them.

[AstralUniverse]

what does the drow have going for them at the moment?

Basically an elf but with *more* stats.

If sr is a huge problem from a balance point of veiw, my suggestion is simply removing it and allowing drow to take a second major gift.

Lol hell no. If anything, a drow should pick between 32 sr and their 1 major gift, not a second major gift on top of +2 dex, int and cha. They already get better stats than moon elf as illustrated above.

I understand that being nerfed sucks but please.... Drow is still one of, if not the best races in the game and does not require any award to play. We're all good here.

[Shadowy Reality]

Throw on on top their FREE SR which need I remind you before had a whole 90% CHANCE TO ENTIRELY NEGATE A WoF scroll, them still having 26 free SR is immensely useful against scrolls and in PvE. Instead of 90% chance, now its 60% but still free.

A bit of a tangent here; why are WoF scrolls being singled out as an offensive scroll that needs to be competitive in PvP at level 30?

99% of offensive scrolls are practically useless at that level due character save bonuses vs. spells generally being high, while scroll DCs cap at 22 for 9th-level spells, and this is seemingly not viewed as a problem for any of the rest of them.

Because WoF blinds you even if you make the save, and being blind is really bad.

As you mention, most other offensive spells cast from a scroll are useless because their save will be too low. But saveless spells (or spells that still do something on a save) are good. WoF, Cloudkill, grease, web, are all usable to some extent.

Imagine you were a human fighting a drow. You both use a scroll of WoF at the same time. You get blinded at least for 9 seconds, the drow had a 90% chance to not be blind at all, that is a big difference. You would be forced to deal with the blindness and the drow is free to do whatever, action economy is important.

[Regnant Phoenix]

Throw on on top their FREE SR which need I remind you before had a whole 90% CHANCE TO ENTIRELY NEGATE A WoF scroll, them still having 26 free SR is immensely useful against scrolls and in PvE. Instead of 90% chance, now its 60% but still free.

A bit of a tangent here; why are WoF scrolls being singled out as an offensive scroll that needs to be competitive in PvP at level 30?

99% of offensive scrolls are practically useless at that level due character save bonuses vs. spells generally being high, while scroll DCs cap at 22 for 9th-level spells, and this is seemingly not viewed as a problem for any of the rest of them.

We use WoF as an example because it has a saveless 9 second blindness effect. If you can't resist it with Spell Resistance then you will be blinded.

[Kenji]

If anyone is arguing that Drow SR nerf is unwarranted, please look at every other race and do a basic comparison first before posting further. Leave the tunnel vision and look at racial choices in their entirety.

[Itikar]

As a player of a drow I do not find the change unreasonable or unwarranted, given all the features of the race.

What perplexes me is that while races that showed this were touched monk was not. I believe extending the lowering of the cap of spell resistance to 26 to Diamond Body would now be consistent with the new normal of the spell resistant races.

I like the idea of using a major gift for drow, svirfneblin to raise the cap back to 32, if they so want.

[Aren]

Perpetual drow player here: the nerf is fine.

[Richrd]

>play overpowered dommy mommy drow GF
>get nerfed
>complain

Why? Drows were OBVIOUSLY too good and I am surprised it took this much time for them to get a small hit like this. 32 SR was obscene. It artificially made them the strongest non-award race available for no other reason than "drow superiority".

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Throw on on top their FREE SR which need I remind you before had a whole 90% CHANCE TO ENTIRELY NEGATE A WoF scroll, them still having 26 free SR is immensely useful against scrolls and in PvE. Instead of 90% chance, now its 60% but still free.

A bit of a tangent here; why are WoF scrolls being singled out as an offensive scroll that needs to be competitive in PvP at level 30?

99% of offensive scrolls are practically useless at that level due character save bonuses vs. spells generally being high, while scroll DCs cap at 22 for 9th-level spells, and this is seemingly not viewed as a problem for any of the rest of them.

word of faitsh scrolls are a staple to PvP, besides it used to getting ride of summons, it has a partial save effect where even if your opponent fails teh save, they still have a short duration blind in addition to summons being poofed if they do not possess enough SR. WoF scrolls are a staple to PvP interactions. The other unmentioned offensive scrolls are not currently PvP meta.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

As a player of a drow I do not find the change unreasonable or unwarranted, given all the features of the race.

What perplexes me is that while races that showed this were touched monk was not. I believe extending the lowering of the cap of spell resistance to 26 to Diamond Body would now be consistent with the new normal of the spell resistant races.

I like the idea of using a major gift for drow, svirfneblin to raise the cap back to 32, if they so want.

Like who plays monks anymore? Only new players who be like "hey can I have a monk build please?" I think monk balancing is fine right now. It's not a free thing added to a 3 major gift race. You get it for being a freaking monk lol (and we nerfed it too along with lots of other monk things while giving them some offensse bite)

[Sincra]

As a player of a drow I do not find the change unreasonable or unwarranted, given all the features of the race.

What perplexes me is that while races that showed this were touched monk was not. I believe extending the lowering of the cap of spell resistance to 26 to Diamond Body would now be consistent with the new normal of the spell resistant races.

I like the idea of using a major gift for drow, svirfneblin to raise the cap back to 32, if they so want.

Monks pay for the SR by being a dedicated class.
Drow got it for free.

[Itikar]

Monks pay for the SR by being a dedicated class.
Drow got it for free.

I am well aware of the investment, my opinion remains that it would be more proper to normalize monks too in the same fashion. They can still invest further with epic spell resistance feats.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Monks pay for the SR by being a dedicated class.
Drow got it for free.

I am well aware of the investment, my opinion remains that it would be more proper to normalize monks too in the same fashion. They can still invest further with epic spell resistance feats.

Now that we can lower monk SR (greaterbreach, etc), said investment has diminishing returns, especially if you "streamline the baseline". I think difference between default monk sr and racial is great as a drow monk now actually gains something.

[AstralUniverse]

Okay 2 things..

Now that we can lower monk SR

I'm pretty sure that it's not a thing for long time now. It was a thing very briefly afaik.

my opinion remains that it would be more proper to normalize monks too in the same fashion.

But why? I'm waiting for the logic that says that if some arbitrary race gets SR nerfed from X to Y then another unrelated arbitrary (and not that good atm) class needs to go through the same nerf.

[Itikar]

But why? I'm waiting for the logic that says that if some arbitrary race gets SR nerfed from X to Y then another unrelated arbitrary (and not that good atm) class needs to go through the same nerf.

I sincerely do not see how what was explained for the update relating to races does not also apply to monk, namely:

Reasoning:
32 SR is capable of trivialising almost all end game caster content and makes consumable counters hard if not unreasonable to deploy in PvP scenarios.
[...]
Further, this means a breached opponent is no longer able to withstand counters that depending on the cost of the breach source were outlandish.
See: Mordekainens Disjunction being an 80 lore scroll or often 9th circle spell vs a free passive SR value to obtain 22 SR, which still serves to counter a considerable % of common tactics.

In particular, per rulebooks, monk gets a very close SR to spell resistant races level+10 vs level+11, hence it would simply make sense they follow the same pattern to me. I see sincerely no difference and I do not personally believe the class investment balances it.

Feel free to disagree, by all means.