Would you prefer it if I had compared Fireball to Hellball? We can do that if you like though I'm pretty sure the level 12 character will be dead after the first cast.
Unique means different, it doesn't have to mean better than.
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Would you prefer it if I had compared Fireball to Hellball? We can do that if you like though I'm pretty sure the level 12 character will be dead after the first cast.
No, just to be accurate in your critiques. Storm of Vengeance has a pretty potent counter - clarity. In addition, it is a fixed AoE, you can move out of its effect before taking rolls for damage/stun. The boss is also optional as Party mentions. Hyperbolically comparing SoV to Hellball isn't remotely accurate to the threat level that spell holds.MageTankTech wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:23 amWould you prefer it if I had compared Fireball to Hellball? We can do that if you like though I'm pretty sure the level 12 character will be dead after the first cast.
Unique means different, it doesn't have to mean better than.
I don't know about you but I have been in quite a few situations where I could not simply "move out of it's effect before taking rolls for damage/stun". Perhaps I got stunned by something else first, maybe I got bogged down by bodies in the way, maybe path finding sent me into a random tree, this game is slow and cumbersome to play at times and you cannot just wave off a big out of nowhere spike in difficulty with "just play better".Ork wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:52 amNo, just to be accurate in your critiques. Storm of Vengeance has a pretty potent counter - clarity. In addition, it is a fixed AoE, you can move out of its effect before taking rolls for damage/stun. The boss is also optional as Party mentions. Hyperbolically comparing SoV to Hellball isn't remotely accurate to the threat level that spell holds.MageTankTech wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:23 amWould you prefer it if I had compared Fireball to Hellball? We can do that if you like though I'm pretty sure the level 12 character will be dead after the first cast.
Unique means different, it doesn't have to mean better than.
Unless the death penalty logic has been changed from back when I'm pretty sure the wait time is longer than "a few minutes" and it isn't just exp. If you end up burning a ton of supplies then you need to resupply as well, if you were relying on a team they may need to readjust or have to leave altogether, if you were playing on the weekend because your weekdays are full then you may not have enough time to follow up on that and may have to give up. I'm not sure if you are aware of this fact but "nothing in life is free" no matter what those advertisements try to claim.Ork wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:53 amClarity is readily available and moving out of the AoE common game knowledge. Being prepared is a huge trope and aspect of D&D and being punished for unpreparedness is part of the fun. Dying on Arelith is hardly a consequence when you can roll back out in a few minutes without losing too much XP.
On Skal, I died 3 times to the Dragon boss at the end of the quest progression. The first few times were to wyvern jumping in from the edge of the map and another from bad positioning. When I finally defeated that Dragon, I felt amazing. I wish I could do it again from scratch. If a dungeon doesn't present a modest challenge, it can rarely hold my attention for long.
All that to say, don't champion game design because you're worried new players might get their feelings hurt. Some of us enjoy the challenge. If you don't? Thankfully, you can avoid that boss entirely (and all the content that challenges you as a player while you're at it).
Unless the death penalty logic has been changed from back when I'm pretty sure the wait time is longer than "a few minutes" and it isn't just exp. If you end up burning a ton of supplies then you need to resupply as well, if you were relying on a team they may need to readjust or have to leave altogether, if you were playing on the weekend because your weekdays are full then you may not have enough time to follow up on that and may have to give up. Ultimately, the penalty for death is pretty relative.Ork wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:53 amClarity is readily available and moving out of the AoE common game knowledge. Being prepared is a huge trope and aspect of D&D and being punished for unpreparedness is part of the fun. Dying on Arelith is hardly a consequence when you can roll back out in a few minutes without losing too much XP.
On Skal, I died 3 times to the Dragon boss at the end of the quest progression. The first few times were to wyvern jumping in from the edge of the map and another from bad positioning. When I finally defeated that Dragon, I felt amazing. I wish I could do it again from scratch. If a dungeon doesn't present a modest challenge, it can rarely hold my attention for long.
All that to say, don't champion game design because you're worried new players might get their feelings hurt. Some of us enjoy the challenge. If you don't? Thankfully, you can avoid that boss entirely (and all the content that challenges you as a player while you're at it).
I mean, the only thing more basic to look at would be stats. Typically when trying to balance something you go with the most basic settings first.
It's not, at all, a good metric to use in NWN (or even most games unless it is PVP). You've made your point and I don't see what further points are this is going to do.
I am not enough of an expert on the subject to say how well it will work with regards to NWN but with regards to your comment on other games that is certifiably untrue. There are soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo many successful games out there that do "this" "exact" "thing". In fact I would not be surprised if this is the most commonly used tactic in the gaming industry in general.
To be perfectly honest, I missed your last reply, sorry.Party in the forest at midnight wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:40 pmWhy are you replying to everyone except me.
To be clear I was piggybacking off of someone else stating a boss in a level 12 area had a 9th circle spell so I have no idea where. As I've stated already I do not believe difficulty spikes are a positive for most people in most situations.Party in the forest at midnight wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 3:14 amBefore we continue can you tell us what dungeon it is? The only one that comes to mind for that level range is the buccaneer den north of the Crow's Nest, I don't know if any of the other new added content has the spell being used.
Personally I don't think the spell is that bad. Of all of the difficult things a boss can spring on you, I mind SoV the least because you can run out of the way of it before lightning strikes. I've never seen an area where SoV is cast where you do not have the option to run away. The buccaneer den tunnels are tight, but that gives you an added benefit to fight the boss. You can run out of line of sight and force it to run to you. Seeing a boss pop out weird is much more frightening than SoV.
I play most games on the highest or second highest difficulty I will have you know. I do not require "handholding" to progress in anything. Also, given that "you" were the one to speak of "being prepared" as a fun aspect of D&D it surprises me that you would be so against one of the key aspects of being prepared...knowing what to prepare for. Proper Strategy requires foresight into what you are dealing with. Would you bring a heavy snow coat to a desert? No, you would die from heatstroke in less than an hour.
So, for example, lizardfolk all over the island using acid damage, then a lizardfolk boss using a big acid spell like SoV? Or slimes with weak damage shields, that when you meet them in harder areas, have very strong damage shields? Weak dragonlings with weak breath attacks, and strong dragons with strong breath attacks?MageTankTech wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:54 pmAlso, last time I checked the Souls series are "notoriously difficult" and yet they still manage things like hints about upcomming content in their various dungeons. You often know what type of terrain, or enemies or even what style of boss is going to be next just based on what you faced previously. It is up to the player to discern this knowledge for themselves of course and those who are unobservant will naturally be punished for it.
Some players and devs have been trying to tell you very politely that the above statement is correct. What you're seeing now is them running out of patience.MageTankTech wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:06 amThis is just the suggestion of someone who doesn't know much about the balance of this game/server so take it with a grain of salt.
Why are they running out of patience? It's not like they are required to respond to me. Also the only responses I recall getting areMRFTW wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:20 pmSo, for example, lizardfolk all over the island using acid damage, then a lizardfolk boss using a big acid spell like SoV? Or slimes with weak damage shields, that when you meet them in harder areas, have very strong damage shields? Weak dragonlings with weak breath attacks, and strong dragons with strong breath attacks?MageTankTech wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:54 pmAlso, last time I checked the Souls series are "notoriously difficult" and yet they still manage things like hints about upcomming content in their various dungeons. You often know what type of terrain, or enemies or even what style of boss is going to be next just based on what you faced previously. It is up to the player to discern this knowledge for themselves of course and those who are unobservant will naturally be punished for it.
You said yourself earlier in the thread:Some players and devs have been trying to tell you very politely that the above statement is correct. What you're seeing now is them running out of patience.MageTankTech wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:06 amThis is just the suggestion of someone who doesn't know much about the balance of this game/server so take it with a grain of salt.
I could keep pulling earlier quotes but I think the point is made clear enough. So no, I have not seen a single response from anyone in this thread aside from you claiming "yes, the statements you made are correct, this is in fact how the game is balanced". If anything I have been getting the exact opposite of that in terms of responses claiming that my idea is not a good one.Ork wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:53 amClarity is readily available and moving out of the AoE common game knowledge. Being prepared is a huge trope and aspect of D&D and being punished for unpreparedness is part of the fun. Dying on Arelith is hardly a consequence when you can roll back out in a few minutes without losing too much XP.
On Skal, I died 3 times to the Dragon boss at the end of the quest progression. The first few times were to wyvern jumping in from the edge of the map and another from bad positioning. When I finally defeated that Dragon, I felt amazing. I wish I could do it again from scratch. If a dungeon doesn't present a modest challenge, it can rarely hold my attention for long.
All that to say, don't champion game design because you're worried new players might get their feelings hurt. Some of us enjoy the challenge. If you don't? Thankfully, you can avoid that boss entirely (and all the content that challenges you as a player while you're at it).
Eh, come on. You should know better.
I have yet to hear a single explanation from you regarding what proper balance is and instead I keep getting generic "I want challenge" statements from you.
Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.
So we're very much on track.
You start off with a caution about how you're not familiar with the server, and don't really know how best to approach game balance, but then in the same post.MageTankTech wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:06 amI get that balancing can be hard when there are alot of big numbers and fancy things and I don't know this server or game well so my advice might not be amazing but I have often found that in most cases "simple is best".
You make an assumption that there are monsters/bosses on this server with such a huge disparity of power that they're using L9 spells in areas where player characters could never have access to these spells. Here's the issue with this line of thinking. It is a generalization made on the comment of someone else.MageTankTech wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:06 amIt was stated earlier that a level 12 area had a boss with 9th circle spells. Pure mages don't have 9th circle spells at level 12 so why would enemies?
In PVP can a 5th circle summon compete with a 9th circle summon? Can they even touch a 9th circle summon? No, they would be obliterated.
Playing better is what you need to do. Let's say you die to Krahk the Minotaur boss on Skal. He IS verifiably much harder than all the other spawns in his area. What do you do? You'd have us believe that Krahk is poorly designed if you are not able to defeat him. We play on a multiplayer roleplay server. There are plenty of people that can join your adventuring party, and you'll find success. The story that comes from that success (or failure) is the reason why we're playing Arelith. It isn't for gold, or XP, or any other metric.MageTankTech wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:23 amI don't know about you but I have been in quite a few situations where I could not simply "move out of it's effect before taking rolls for damage/stun". Perhaps I got stunned by something else first, maybe I got bogged down by bodies in the way, maybe path finding sent me into a random tree, this game is slow and cumbersome to play at times and you cannot just wave off a big out of nowhere spike in difficulty with "just play better".
This is not the purpose of balance. The purpose of balance is whatever Irongron deems it should be. He makes the areas, he makes the mobs, he balances these locations for player consumption. It doesn't matter what you or I or Jimbob Joe says about mobs. Irongron has listened to complaints about mob strength before, and even in this very thread he mentioned he would look over them. Rational, informed feedback is listened to by our server owner, and that's a good thing. What isn't useful are generalized complaints, gripes about vague deaths, and criticisms without substance. Reference Scurvy's post in this topic. It outlines how I'd go about reporting issues for dungeons. He uses facts to support his claims about area imbalances.MageTankTech wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:23 amThe whole point of "balance" is to keep things reasonable so that people with little to no skill/knowledge and people with alot of skill/knowledge can enjoy something.
Damn, you died. What happens now? This server has a long history of supporting the mantra of "when bad things happen to good adventurers". The synopsis is to roll with the punches. Get a party next time. Make sure you get barkskin potions and adaquate healing supplies before heading out. See if you can get a town cleric to buff you. These are all actions you can do to ensure your success. I don't have a lot of time to play these days. I know the crunch when you have to eat that respawn pill and know your gametime is done for the evening. But, to remove the possibility of defeat means that you're also removing the possibility of a more gratifying success later on. I mentioned the Skal Dragon crushed me. I know that I could've given up and honestly there would've been little to no consequence for that action. However, I'm a stubborn bastard.MageTankTech wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 3:07 amUnless the death penalty logic has been changed from back when I'm pretty sure the wait time is longer than "a few minutes" and it isn't just exp. If you end up burning a ton of supplies then you need to resupply as well, if you were relying on a team they may need to readjust or have to leave altogether, if you were playing on the weekend because your weekdays are full then you may not have enough time to follow up on that and may have to give up. I'm not sure if you are aware of this fact but "nothing in life is free" no matter what those advertisements try to claim.
Remember when I said that well-informed criticism is listen to? This won't be. It's purely hyperbolic and not based in actual experience.MageTankTech wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:23 amAlso, what happens if they have DC 99 3000 Damage Acid Splash? What if there are thirty of them? Or they have the high ground and you can't hit them with spells due to your sight being blocked? Or you are standing on 100 damage traps.
Discussions of balance should be held within the confines of this game. You either have an attack or a spell coming your way. There are ways to mitigate both of these effects. Having AC, having DR, having immunities, using spells wisely like the Shield spell. These allow you to weather a lot of damage that would be otherwise coming your way. If you have 40 AC and all the mobs have 20 AB, you're avoiding the vast majority of damage. Using numbers to your advantage is part of being prepared in NWN.MageTankTech wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:23 amThere are quite a few games out there that use this formula to create challenging gameplay. Singular dumb enemies with one job working with other dumb enemies who also have one job. It just takes some creativity with the environment and enemy placement to sell it.
MageTankTech wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:54 pmI play most games on the highest or second highest difficulty I will have you know. I do not require "handholding" to progress in anything.
This is what I mean by handholding. You don't need wiggle room to recover from a mistake. I don't mean this rudely but you just need to get good at NWN or die trying (and do it all over again more prepared this time).MageTankTech wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:08 pmNwN is a game where balance is harder to recover because everything is slow and cumbersome. Therefore even more wiggle room needs to be allowed for someone to recover from a mistake.
Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.
So we're very much on track.