The Big UMD Change Thread

[Poolbrain]

Investment in scrolls is way too high. If the want to decouple scrolls from the rest of UMD, I think the least that could be done is lower the requirement. Make them comparable to one another so it's a bit more pick and choose. Or at least make the most useful spells attainable with some level of investment that doesn't break one's build. The idea that mundane characters shouldn't be throwing around such high level spells is debatable but to just rip that out of the game now and tweak it later is a bit irresponsible imo.

As it stands, just as one example, summons have become extremely powerful. Mundane characters have no real way to get rid of them and don't have access to them, themselves. Not to mention that the only other two tools they might be able to use (if the caster hasn't already summoned their edk/vampire/etc) are dismissal and banishment which give a 30 and 60 second window without the summons respectively. Given that they can no longer reliably dispel the caster either it's more likely than not that they're not going to be able to make much of any use of that time anyways.

Maybe there might be some solution that satisfies the people that want to see less UMD and the people who want mundanes to be on par with casters but this isn't it. Otherwise a lot of the changes were honestly really cool and I'll use this as a chance to say that there is a lot of good direction in them. On the point of this thread however, I really see nothing good coming out of this direction.

Also as an aside I don't think a lot of the comments trying to downplay the mechanical knowledge of other players (many of whom have a history of being exceptionally good guidance on building) is really useful.

You can cast as many WoF scrolls you want with 33 invested lore if you got 14 int and do some switcheroo with 2xrings of insight and a helmet of lore. And this on almost ANY build combination. Am I the only one seeing how overpowering this is for so many class combinations?

To cast dismissal 10 lore is enough if you switch rings of insights and lore helmet around. Hells, you can almost always keep them on if you enchant them. Souldn't be a problem to have +5 lore +2 disc and double attributes on a ring to later be runed.

It's not THAT big of an investment.

The lore requirement of lower circle scrolls could easily be increased even more.

[Peppermint]

I somehow don't think that item swapping (and giving up CON/etc) in the middle of a fight against a mage is the most brilliant move.

Moreover, most summons have SR.

Maybe I'm just old-fashioned though. Most of my PvP experience comes from PvP servers. I need to start thinking in Arelith terms.

[Ork]

You can cast as many WoF scrolls you want with 33 invested lore if you got 14 int and do some switcheroo with 2xrings of insight and a helmet of lore. And this on almost ANY build combination. Am I the only one seeing how overpowering this is for so many class combinations?

To cast dismissal 10 lore is enough if you switch rings of insights and lore helmet around. Hells, you can almost always keep them on if you enchant them. Souldn't be a problem to have +5 lore +2 disc and double attributes on a ring to later be runed.

It's not THAT big of an investment.

The lore requirement of lower circle scrolls could easily be increased even more.

Since you're quick to advise us on mechanics, are you familiar with how SR works? Cause, lemme tell you - it pretty much invalidates both those methods of removing summons.

[Kshatriya]

Investment in scrolls is way too high. If the want to decouple scrolls from the rest of UMD, I think the least that could be done is lower the requirement. Make them comparable to one another so it's a bit more pick and choose. Or at least make the most useful spells attainable with some level of investment that doesn't break one's build. The idea that mundane characters shouldn't be throwing around such high level spells is debatable but to just rip that out of the game now and tweak it later is a bit irresponsible imo.

As it stands, just as one example, summons have become extremely powerful. Mundane characters have no real way to get rid of them and don't have access to them, themselves. Not to mention that the only other two tools they might be able to use (if the caster hasn't already summoned their edk/vampire/etc) are dismissal and banishment which give a 30 and 60 second window without the summons respectively. Given that they can no longer reliably dispel the caster either it's more likely than not that they're not going to be able to make much of any use of that time anyways.

Maybe there might be some solution that satisfies the people that want to see less UMD and the people who want mundanes to be on par with casters but this isn't it. Otherwise a lot of the changes were honestly really cool and I'll use this as a chance to say that there is a lot of good direction in them. On the point of this thread however, I really see nothing good coming out of this direction.

Also as an aside I don't think a lot of the comments trying to downplay the mechanical knowledge of other players (many of whom have a history of being exceptionally good guidance on building) is really useful.

You can cast as many WoF scrolls you want with 33 invested lore if you got 14 int and do some switcheroo with 2xrings of insight and a helmet of lore. And this on almost ANY build combination. Am I the only one seeing how overpowering this is for so many class combinations?

To cast dismissal 10 lore is enough if you switch rings of insights and lore helmet around. Hells, you can almost always keep them on if you enchant them. Souldn't be a problem to have +5 lore +2 disc and double attributes on a ring to later be runed.

It's not THAT big of an investment.

The lore requirement of lower circle scrolls could easily be increased even more.

That is completely ignoring that you have to knowingly damage your own gear or build to even be able to do it? I really don't think you're making the point that you think you're trying to make. WoF also is also significantly less relevant against an EDK without the mords to back it up. Sure maybe I can use greater breach but that's not an assurance by any means. Meanwhile casters can still essentially play the same way as before without having to do harm to their own builds.

Not to mention that you didn't even solve the issue I actually mentioned with dismissal that you're not likely to kill them in that time period anyways. I suppose if you are some kind of master timer and you're able to perfectly overlay your dismissals well then more power to you but I'm going to go out on a limb and say most players probably aren't going to be timing themselves like that.

[Hexgoblin]

UMD never made a WM or any other warrior alternative an epic spellcaster. I don't know where this idea that being able to use a very limited version of a spell equals the usage of it to its full potential comes from. I'm further confused by people still viewing a WM as some sort of mechanical boogeyman outside of solid dungeon DPS, given they're quite far fallen from the graces of the modern PvP meta. You can no longer deal physical damage to a target during Timestop above 50% HP, and AC values overall quite starkly outpace AB, especially with current itemization very reliably enabling tri-statting for Divine Shield builds. Not to mention that a WM makes immense sacrifices, in the form of either feats or very high-end gearing to achieve reliable saving throws.

I'm primarily a caster player myself. That doesn't mean that this update brings me any semblance of joy. I don't like seeing people wilt around me, in regards to their ability to counter what I do. UMD is what lets a warrior PC deviate from a playstyle that can essentially be summarized as "left click and hope the target dies before he's able to cast spells," and make educated decisions based on circumstance. Tools spellcasters come pre-packaged with, and can use to a far greater effect.

If you've been hit by an Abjuration focused sorcerer's Mordenkainen's Disjunction, and then by a Disjunction scroll used by -- let's say a barbarian during a separate encounter, then I doubt you'll be walking away considering the two equally impactful. One may very well have shaved off every beneficial spell from your person, whereas the other was a glorified Spell Breach with a side of lowered SR.

Above, I'm seeing examples such as 23 fighter/7 WM used as workarounds to the current predicament. Even during the kensai era of a bonus attack per round and a chunk of free saving throws, this build was considered very easy for a mage to dispose of. I'm also seeing "just build around killing the summons" as a proposed course of action. Let me tell you right away that wasting your time with a 500+ HP summon, or cluster of summons while a mage is freecasting in the distance is a very, very bad idea. Give a hasted mage who knows what he's doing 2-3 rounds and you're dead.

Even ignoring summons, crowd control spells vs. overall low saves, Greater Ruin and the ludicrous Avascular Mass spell -- ye olde Cloudkill (reduces the HP refunded by -pray, since it has to clear a saveless debuff aside from just healing) + Timestop + 2x max IGMS + Hellball (both a chunk of damage and a saveless knockdown) + 2x max IGMS combo is unavoidable damage well into the 500s. There's no point during that setup where a Heal potion or scroll can be used. -pray is your only source of incoming healing, and the Cloudkill will see it significantly reduced in effect. Yes, that is survivable by high HP builds, but assume that you've taken any form of damage prior and you're in deep water. Especially if a Disjunction has been aimed your way prior, to clear buffs that'd mitigate the Cloud, IGMS via gsf: abjuration Shield or partial Hellball damage. You can even exclude the Hellball, if assuming that the scenery won't allow for collateral, and you're still looking at frightening burst potential.

The ability to kill summons in a few rounds isn't good enough. Having enough AC to ignore summons if lacking the means to rid them directly was always preferable to actually killing them, because at that point you're still occupying the mage. Nor is the ability to pierce wardings via a +5 weapon effective, if you still have to manually approach your target, vulnerable and in clear view. Something that likely ought to happen as a start, if changes stick the way they are, is the total disabling of Timestop as a burst enabler for everyone, spellcasters included.

[godhand-]

The issue is there is no counter-play whatsoever to dragons, vampires, or warlock fiends.

Ok if your having issues with a vampires 35ab hitting you i think UMD is the least obvious solution to your problem.

There should be classes and builds that counter other builds, think of it as a game of rock paper scissors. Your character shouldn't be a one stop shop designed to counter all builds and have a solo solution to everything, because if your build wins in ALL situations, you're GOD and you need a nerf.

If you want to play a warrior type with access to level 9 spells? Thats what we have spellsword for. It blends the two. Just because you can't have access to it in your current build doesn't mean you can't have it.
This whole UMD thing reminds me of when they were trying to find the balance for Barbarians, and all the barbarians got their rage HP cut in half "Oh no my 1200 HP character is only going to have 1000 HP in rage now!" as if it was the end of arelith itself.

[TimeAdept]

because if your build wins in ALL situations, you're GOD and you need a nerf.

Glad we agree that mages casters and summoners currently need a nerf then, because the UMD change made them too strong.

[kossos]

The question is why this UMD system was implemented in the first place ? By making such a major change you're stating that this system was a bad call for all that time, which is strange because you made the elementals last so long and be quite useful, clearly you were trying to address something.

Now one thing is sure, as a beginner and as a rogue I am now completely stuck. I can't even do my dailies, I wanted to try ooze cube (gooey) but it doesn't work either (activates but doesn't summon, not sure if it's a bug but I'm going broke at this rate with wasted scrolls and ooze), I'm not sure it will be as effective as elementals anyway. My only choice is to group with other people (casters that can have summons preferably) but that isn't always an option. People were already complaining about casters being overpowered, this is one additional major buff to them by nerfing everybody else.

I'd expect the server population to slowly drop as a lot of people won't able to do their dailies anymore, me included.

[Tarkus the dog]

The issue is there is no counter-play whatsoever to dragons, vampires, or warlock fiends.

Ok if your having issues with a vampires 35ab hitting you i think UMD is the least obvious solution to your problem.

There should be classes and builds that counter other builds, think of it as a game of rock paper scissors. Your character shouldn't be a one stop shop designed to counter all builds and have a solo solution to everything, because if your build wins in ALL situations, you're GOD and you need a nerf.

If you want to play a warrior type with access to level 9 spells? Thats what we have spellsword for. It blends the two. Just because you can't have access to it in your current build doesn't mean you can't have it.
This whole UMD thing reminds me of when they were trying to find the balance for Barbarians, and all the barbarians got their rage HP cut in half "Oh no my 1200 HP character is only going to have 1000 HP in rage now!" as if it was the end of arelith itself.

So that is your argument? Go play a spellsword if you want to contest with mages? Do you not see that this is the exact issue, that you need to be a caster in order to deal with other casters? That you can 1. Be mundane class, and only be able to compete with mundane classes OR 2. Be a caster class, and be able to compete with EVERYONE. And you suppose it is entirely OK to be forced to choose the last?

What if I don't enjoy playing a spellsword? What if I think that spellsword, or any class in the game that can cast spells, is extremely boring and doesn't cater to my idea of fun?

I agree with you that there should indeed be classes and builds that do well against certain other classes and builds and not simply against everything no matter what ( aka mages at the moment ), but as it is right now, after the update, mages are scissors, mundane classes are paper, and the rock is PvE content.

Also I'm yet to mention that humans are back on the "must be" kind of situation right now. Expect more "Too many humans in the UD" posts in the future.

[Durvayas]

The issue is there is no counter-play whatsoever to dragons, vampires, or warlock fiends.

Ok if your having issues with a vampires 35ab hitting you i think UMD is the least obvious solution to your problem.

There should be classes and builds that counter other builds, think of it as a game of rock paper scissors. Your character shouldn't be a one stop shop designed to counter all builds and have a solo solution to everything, because if your build wins in ALL situations, you're GOD and you need a nerf.

Vampires are typically less of an issue than the EDK and warlock and blackguard fiends(which are effectively lvl 28+ WMs on their own), though there are three of them, and they do sneak damage. Their main strength is honestly that they make it difficult to pathfind around them. They're like an undead wall of meat for slowing a warrior down long enough for it to get evo-comboed.

The point stands though, there is zero counterplay against high tier summons. Used to be you might be able to timestop to get around it, or hit it with a mords and WoF it, or some other appropriate UMD combo as needed.

All the counterplay is gone. You either fight the summon (and get BTFO by the caster) or you fight the caster (And get BTFO by the summon). A mundane literally cannot win unless they start the fight fully warded and close enough to a caster to kiss them, and even then, their odds are not great.

By your own logic, wizards need a nerf, because they are a one stop shop designed to counter all builds, and indeed win in ALL situations now, and ARE a solo solution to everything.

[Poolbrain]

Investment in scrolls is way too high. If the want to decouple scrolls from the rest of UMD, I think the least that could be done is lower the requirement. Make them comparable to one another so it's a bit more pick and choose. Or at least make the most useful spells attainable with some level of investment that doesn't break one's build. The idea that mundane characters shouldn't be throwing around such high level spells is debatable but to just rip that out of the game now and tweak it later is a bit irresponsible imo.

As it stands, just as one example, summons have become extremely powerful. Mundane characters have no real way to get rid of them and don't have access to them, themselves. Not to mention that the only other two tools they might be able to use (if the caster hasn't already summoned their edk/vampire/etc) are dismissal and banishment which give a 30 and 60 second window without the summons respectively. Given that they can no longer reliably dispel the caster either it's more likely than not that they're not going to be able to make much of any use of that time anyways.

Maybe there might be some solution that satisfies the people that want to see less UMD and the people who want mundanes to be on par with casters but this isn't it. Otherwise a lot of the changes were honestly really cool and I'll use this as a chance to say that there is a lot of good direction in them. On the point of this thread however, I really see nothing good coming out of this direction.

Also as an aside I don't think a lot of the comments trying to downplay the mechanical knowledge of other players (many of whom have a history of being exceptionally good guidance on building) is really useful.

You can cast as many WoF scrolls you want with 33 invested lore if you got 14 int and do some switcheroo with 2xrings of insight and a helmet of lore. And this on almost ANY build combination. Am I the only one seeing how overpowering this is for so many class combinations?

To cast dismissal 10 lore is enough if you switch rings of insights and lore helmet around. Hells, you can almost always keep them on if you enchant them. Souldn't be a problem to have +5 lore +2 disc and double attributes on a ring to later be runed.

It's not THAT big of an investment.

The lore requirement of lower circle scrolls could easily be increased even more.

That is completely ignoring that you have to knowingly damage your own gear or build to even be able to do it? I really don't think you're making the point that you think you're trying to make. WoF also is also significantly less relevant against an EDK without the mords to back it up. Sure maybe I can use greater breach but that's not an assurance by any means. Meanwhile casters can still essentially play the same way as before without having to do harm to their own builds.

Not to mention that you didn't even solve the issue I actually mentioned with dismissal that you're not likely to kill them in that time period anyways. I suppose if you are some kind of master timer and you're able to perfectly overlay your dismissals well then more power to you but I'm going to go out on a limb and say most players probably aren't going to be timing themselves like that.

All I'm saying, having lore instead of UMD opens up the potential of a new powerful varieties of builds that I don't think usually is explored on Arelith because of the need to always lock one class choice to rogue/bard.

There's already ways to go around the change (but ofcours, umd or no umd. casters are hands down the most powerful class on the server, there's really no question about that) but the final solution is not allowing every bastard with a sword to have lvl 9 spells.

Solutions would be changes like "Taking damage requires a concentration check (casting or not casting) failing the check will give you 100% spell failure for x amount of rounds"

Or, "Failing a concentration check while having a summon out will make it unsummon itself"

I'm just pulling these ideas out of my arse, but I think they might hint towards what could be nice design choices?

Feel free to be as snarky as you want about what I posted

[Dreams]

Here's my take:

- Balance hasn't been given due consideration here. If it has been, then it was done through the lens of of a telescope - too far away to see clearly.

- Nothing is clear about this update. I don't know the many follow-on effects for how to rebuild my characters appropriately, and 48 hours isn't going to be enough time to learn about various bugs and bits and pieces that now simply don't work.

- DMs are likely going to be swamped for months with people needing help as a direct result of poor implementation.

- Hex made an excellent point when he said:

when I saw Arelith moving towards haks, I like most people was pretty excited for a fresh set of clothing options, fancy areas and perhaps a smattering of custom spells, or otherwise content for classes that the base game neglects.

Instead we get a massive overhaul of how fifteen years of trial and error has built the game up to function, seemingly prompted by an artistic whim, and are put in a position where playing a warrior PC is suddenly a sacrifice you make in pursuit of class fantasy -- as it no longer stands much of a chance when competing with spellcasters, without being able to turn a part of the latter's toolkit against them. In other words what UMD traditionally allows you to do.

All anyone wanted was a little bit more visually to mess with. More clothing options would have gone a long way for this. Instead, the whole game has sort of been turned upside down.

[godhand-]

These conversations seem to go around in circles a little. But they are always justified by the "worst of what if" Situations.
"I have 0 counterplay to abcdxyz situation"
Ok, Well lets take it a few steps back? Why are you in a situation where you are against a fully buffed, summoned and decorated caster with all the bells and whistles fully prepared for combat?
Because if your unprepared, and they are, The conversation is moot regardless of what class is against what class.

Change the situation: You know you're going to be getting into PVP, they are not buffed. Get in their face. stand right next to them and when they start to cast? Casting a spell in a tense situation is a hostile action, even if the spell itself is not hostile. KD them before they can even cast a spell. "walks up to x person and tries to grab them by the throat"
Use some strategy with your roleplay and hey, Presto, Casters are balanced again.

BUT, back to the beginning, We're in abcdxyz situation as above, they were hunting you and they are FULLY prepared for battle and you've just opened your front door to the apocalypse on your doorstep ready to PVP. Well, Guess what, in some stories you're not meant to win every battle. Losing is part of the story. Next time it will be you walking up to their doorstep when they are unprepared, and you won't give them the chance to turn the engine on.

I'm not disagreeing, Casters are in a strong place, but i've also played enough of arelith, casters, melee, the lot forme to understand PVP doesn't go down in game like it does when we theorycraft in our mind. Yes, this is a spreadsheet vs spreadsheet game, But theres more to it than that.

[Aren]

These conversations seem to go around in circles a little. But they are always justified by the "worst of what if" Situations.
"I have 0 counterplay to abcdxyz situation"
Ok, Well lets take it a few steps back? Why are you in a situation where you are against a fully buffed, summoned and decorated caster with all the bells and whistles fully prepared for combat?
Because if your unprepared, and they are, The conversation is moot regardless of what class is against what class.

Change the situation: You know you're going to be getting into PVP, they are not buffed. Get in their face. stand right next to them and when they start to cast? Casting a spell in a tense situation is a hostile action, even if the spell itself is not hostile. KD them before they can even cast a spell. "walks up to x person and tries to grab them by the throat"
Use some strategy with your roleplay and hey, Presto, Casters are balanced again.

BUT, back to the beginning, We're in abcdxyz situation as above, they were hunting you and they are FULLY prepared for battle and you've just opened your front door to the apocalypse on your doorstep ready to PVP. Well, Guess what, in some stories you're not meant to win every battle. Losing is part of the story. Next time it will be you walking up to their doorstep when they are unprepared, and you won't give them the chance to turn the engine on.

I'm not disagreeing, Casters are in a strong place, but i've also played enough of arelith, casters, melee, the lot forme to understand PVP doesn't go down in game like it does when we theorycraft in our mind. Yes, this is a spreadsheet vs spreadsheet game, But theres more to it than that.

Except Gsanc summon EDK is a thing. Casters are not only in a strong place. They are absolutely ridiculous now. Caster PM is by far the new meta.

[Peppermint]

Wait, what. What caster are you killing in a single guaranteed KD, in a meta where discipline inflation is prevalent (casters can top out near 70 discipline now!) and have -pray as an instant 300 hit point heal.

It's one thing to say theorycraft ignores reality, and another to ignore the fundamental mechanics of the game altogether.

[Aren]

Truth.

Yes.

[Durvayas]

Change the situation: You know you're going to be getting into PVP, they are not buffed. Get in their face. stand right next to them and when they start to cast? Casting a spell in a tense situation is a hostile action, even if the spell itself is not hostile. KD them before they can even cast a spell. "walks up to x person and tries to grab them by the throat"
Use some strategy with your roleplay and hey, Presto, Casters are balanced again.

So to get this straight... Your suggestion to the absurd disparity in power is to walk up to the caster and one-line them.

Thats not balancing. Thats not even strategy; Thats cheesing to win.

Even if we take your suggestion seriously, which, we obviously shouldn't; You seem to not be taking into account that if they are not killed instantanously by a cheap-shot opening, they WILL cast timestop(which can no longer be countered). By the time that ends, any mundane is toast, either through disables, save or dies, or hell, if the target simply drops an EDK or other summon on you and puts a little distance between you.

[the grim yeeter]

All I want to say about this update is that it's, once again, a very, very poorly thought-out one.

[Might-N-Magic]

What iffff...

You had to spend all your SP every level?

Problem solved.

Everybody ends up playing pure bards because they all want Tumble AC, Spellcraft saves, and no one wants to be KD bait?
(Kinda like what we have atm, but at least you don't have to be one if you don't want to and can still be playable...)

What annoys me most is having a character who's "well-read" and knows things due to your fancy maxed out Lore skill in a world of mostly windowsill lickers and knuckle-draggers suddenly waking up to find all those somehow literate (seriously, most of you should be illiterate if we're being honest) mouth breathers now have max Lore with no legitimately believable way for them to be so.

And you killed my ability to understand languages for this! Something that's been in the game for DECADES!

INFURIATING!

[Adam Antium]

Let's not forget wizards take discipline, and KD spam is not a thing anymore.

[godhand-]

Around in circles we go!

they WILL cast timestop(which can no longer be countered). By the time that ends, any mundane is toast, either through disables, save or dies, or hell, if the target simply drops an EDK or other summon on you and puts a little distance between you.

You've just listed all the ways a caster can kill you in 5 seconds, which is great. i'm not denying they have so many options of ways to kill/disable you, through summons, timestops, gsancs, save-or-die spells etc.
A good caster will have a quickened haste on hand too, so they're firing that off to begin their wombo combo, just look at how much is happening so quickly!
Which, is fantastic, Because all it proves is that your six-to-ten seconds*, of standing there casting your own scroll of whatever has just become moot, as even with UMD you're already dead by the time you get the spell off, what are you targeting? the EDK? the Vamps? The caster? To me it sounds like there is still TOO much to deal with that your little scroll isn't going to help you; by the time you cast it you're already dead.

The issue clearly here isn't UMD being taken away. By your own logic, a caster it too powerful, and will kill you before you can use it.
The issue comes back to casters - are they in a state that is too powerful?

I never denied the overly strong position casters were in, I'm just not convinced UMD is the saving grace of all other characters and you can't take it away.... And might i mention the admins did say they are going to look into the balance of things re summons etc. which, whilst its not now, lets wait and see what happens.

*Lets take a moment to be real, depending on how the game reacts to your action, we've all been there where you use a scroll and stand there for 2 rounds like a dumbass before actually using it because NWN......

[Might-N-Magic]

Let's not forget wizards take discipline, and KD spam is not a thing anymore.

Yes, well KD has been dead ever since the basins were added many a moon ago. Why someone ever thought it needed a cooldown was beyond me...

[Ecthelion]

Around in circles we go!

they WILL cast timestop(which can no longer be countered). By the time that ends, any mundane is toast, either through disables, save or dies, or hell, if the target simply drops an EDK or other summon on you and puts a little distance between you.

You've just listed all the ways a caster can kill you in 5 seconds, which is great. i'm not denying they have so many options of ways to kill/disable you, through summons, timestops, gsancs, save-or-die spells etc.
A good caster will have a quickened haste on hand too, so they're firing that off to begin their wombo combo, just look at how much is happening so quickly!
Which, is fantastic, Because all it proves is that your six-to-ten seconds*, of standing there casting your own scroll of whatever has just become moot, as even with UMD you're already dead by the time you get the spell off, what are you targeting? the EDK? the Vamps? The caster? To me it sounds like there is still TOO much to deal with that your little scroll isn't going to help you; by the time you cast it you're already dead.

The issue clearly here isn't UMD being taken away. By your own logic, a caster it too powerful, and will kill you before you can use it.
The issue comes back to casters - are they in a state that is too powerful?

I never denied the overly strong position casters were in, I'm just not convinced UMD is the saving grace of all other characters and you can't take it away.... And might i mention the admins did say they are going to look into the balance of things re summons etc. which, whilst its not now, lets wait and see what happens.

*Lets take a moment to be real, depending on how the game reacts to your action, we've all been there where you use a scroll and stand there for 2 rounds like a dumbass before actually using it because NWN......

What logic's that, seriously ?
With scrolls, you can :
1) Time-Stop ASAP to buy time and get some initiative.
2) If you're a god, you can cancel your opponant Time-Stop and place your own instead.
3) You can mord his Gsanc
4) You can disjunction + WoF his summons
5) You can precast banishment
I'm sure I forgot a lot of stuff, but those are the counterplays to being oneshotted, mostly. It's that sort of things that have been removed, and now you'll get those rofl-stomp combos working smoothly in all situations without counterplays.

That said, casters are probably a tad too powerful in the first place, but it's hard to balance them without rendering them irrelevant, that's why it wasn't done.
You know, this update in the opposite sense would probably be something like : "Casters now have to dump 4 skillpoints for one point in discipline, and EDK + Time-Stop + Gsanc have been removed."

Nobody would be happy about this either.

[Gobbo Champion Inc]

Having slept on the changes, I still don’t understand why casters were made even more powerful then before, and non casters were nerfed.

This just seems to necessitate building for 80 lore, instead of the old 15 umd. It also does not make powerful magic somehow rarer, or special because commoner is amusingly the non mage class that has the easiest time hitting the lore requirement to use lvl 9 scrolls.

[Jagel]

How about we calm down and give actual useful feedback by playing and sharing specific experiences instead going all in on demanding a rollback of something that has taken a lot of time and effort?