Area is In Balance / Out of Balance / "Invasion"

[Mythic]

So there is a quirky yet interesting system in place for Druids and Rangers to work together combatting

That being the "Area's Balance" System

It basically means the longer an area goes unchecked/not slain, (Or if people drop stockpiled resources into an area) It goes
"out of Balance". And monsters from that area will flood / start spawning in surrounding areas

This is a really cool system, As you can fight it (or cause it) in two ways

Way 1 : Kill things in the "Out of Balance" Areas
Way 2 : Get a druid to -Balance in the areas (Multiple times, With more than one or two druids)

I enjoy this system but as it stands, Its a little lack-luster? And its more akin to a "Mob Invasion" system than a Druidy-Balance system

What are peoples thoughts on the following as a way to increase its impact and make it more interesting to interact with?

1 : When an area is "out of Balance" wild animals (which should normally be non-hostile like Deer) Turn Rabid and attack people (I mean they do that already, but in a purposeful way)

2 : Portals to other planes start opening, Kind of inspired by the "rift crisis", if there were portals that opened and let angry elementals/planars/whatnots out in areas (Depending on level of course. High level areas get high level mobs, low level areas get low level mobs)

That'd make it very engaging, if an Element or Plane started "Taking over" certain areas if going out of Balance, Could even take a page from Oblivions book and make it so if it gets too bad a "Dungeon" opens (Randomly chosen/generated? possibly?) Filled with that planes foes (level dependent if possible) That you need to go through and defeat to Close said gate?

That could make for interesting RP at all levels, if you are adventuring for a writ / anywhere and come across an "Imbalance / Invasion"

(Said "Invasion" system could even have bosses spawn for certain invasion types?)

3 : Angry Trees / Fey start spawning (everyones favourite Angry Trees)

Just a few ideas on what could happen to make it a bit more "Druidy" / connected to nature/ "Balance"

What are peoples thoughts? Do you like this system? Could it be improved on?

[Interium]

It sounds like a doable change/improvement to me. I was positively surprised when I first found out that an area can be out of balance on this Server, however it did take me almost a year to actually realise that was a thing.
So I agree with you, the consequences of neglecting an area could be more clear, like you suggest!

[Adam Antium]

This sounds rad as hell, just also pretty difficult to implement (especially the second option). But it sounds amazing. Would make me want to play a Druid even.

[Archnon]

I love the idea of the balance system but I have never heard of it used effectively for a number of reasons. For those that don't dig into the wiki and deeply read everything (which you would probably have to do to find out about this) here is the description:

Critter Population
A number of areas spread across Arelith's servers have NPC populations which will expand over time, if not kept in check. When a population expands, it will begin to replace the spawns normally found in nearby map areas. An unopposed population will continue to expand, which can cause hostile NPCs to spawn in settlements.

Population expansion can be reduced or stopped by killing spawns in the affected areas.

Population Tracking
Rangers and Harper Scouts may use the -track Console Command to assess the population status of an area. Populations can be "in balance", "spreading", or "out of control".

Character Influence
Characters may affect population expansion by dropping resources in the appropriate map area(s) for a given NPC population. Confirmation text will show when resources are successfully dropped. Only resource packages purchased from a settlement Trade Minister can be used. Items such as wood, stone, and food rations will not be accepted.

Resources must be dropped in the NPC population's center, or an area the population has expanded to (i.e. -track shows it as expanding or out of control). If dropped in an outlying area or an area sometimes taken through expansion, the dropped resources may not be accepted, or may contribute to a different population.

Druids
A Druid may use the -balance Console Command, once per day, to alter the balance of an area. Any attempt will spend the day's use, regardless of whether the area is out of balance. This behooves Druids to work together with Rangers and Harper Scouts.

This tool seems like a fascinating RP tool for settlement conflict. Options include: 1.) I don't care for dwarves so I dump loads and loads of resources at the nearest map to increase the population or cause an invasion. 2.) Flood the Cordor/Andunor/Sencliff sewers with supplies to get rats to spill over into the streets, etc....

I really like the idea of spawning planar dungeons and stuff. However, before we get to discussing what it should spawn, we need to address the problem that stuff NEVER goes out of balance.

However as I see it, there are a number of problems that make this dynamic unavailable:
1.) "Population expansion can be reduced or stopped by killing spawns in the affected areas." I mean, geez, this game is so overpopulated that at a busy play time you could cross the map and never encounter an enemy. People are always clearing out populations, whether it be epics crossing to another city or new 4 week characters that create, kill things around cities and then get bored and move to a different character.

2.) "A Druid may use the -balance Console Command, once per day, to alter the balance of an area. " First this is unclear if this is per in character day or per RL day. However, either way, 7 characters typed by one of the most common classes on the server and bam, whatever money you invested in dumping resources into an area is gone!

The result is that it is just too easy to negate efforts to set an area off balance. I would suggest a few things:

1.) Make Balance and Track a spell in the Druid/Ranger Spell book respectively. This creates a cost to using this ability and is now available in haks.
2.) Make balance cost piety, like a lot of piety, on par or greater than using a resurrection scroll. 100% for level<20, 50% for level >20
3.) Increase the risk rate for an area becoming overrun! Give it a percentage chance on each monster respawn that is not negligible.
Further, shorten the time between clearing to go out of balance.

I picture it as a ticking count. So for every X minutes there are monsters there, the liklihood of a surge goes up by 1. Everytime monsters are cleared it reduces the liklihood of a surge by Y points. Each time monsters respawn the surge liklihood goes up by between A and B percent randomly. Where Y is at like the 75% point of the range of A and B. Druids can increase or decrease by some amount relative to their druid level.

Sure a low level might walk into a storm of spawns and get owned, but that makes RP. Run back into the settlement and be like, guys, it is nuts out there, this needs taken care of. Further there are ways to circumvent these. First, some areas can be kept safe. Further, if the monster levels reach a certain point, everyone could get a warning when they enter the area with a message like, "Something is wrong here. SOMETHING SOMETHING SOMETHING dangerous."

In addition, let rangers see exactly what percentage the spawn chance is at.

When an area hits 100 points, it spawns double monsters, at 125 points, it spawns triple monsters and stronger, at 150 points, monsters spill over, at 175 points a boss (percentage chance he walks around to another map) at 200, a temporary dungeon, need to close the gate!

4.) Spawn bosses or Dungeons per the original poster! (I see this as the potential return of the Stinger Umberhulk that I know we all miss)

Finally and maybe most controversial:
5.) Give druids the power to set an area out of balance. RP wise, druids are about preserving nature. The radical expansion of characters in this game means that druids SHOULD constantly be on edge. Cities are growing, Settlements are all over what was Im sure originally a wild island. I don't understand why they shouldn't be able to unbalance a map next to, say, Cordor, and have all the animals spill over into the city. Destroying cities sounds like pretty reasonable Druid RP. They aren't harpers after all! This would have to be vetted for abuse and thought through more. Need to prevent druids unbalancing just to spawn a bunch of enemies for XP purposes. I think the solution would be to make it cost a percentage of XP

In the end, this could create RP opportunities on all ends. The potential for sabatoge is awesome and creates RP opportunities for response. Plus, it channels conflict into PC-NPC conflict, which tends to leave less hard feelings. People are more willing to rally troops to go take out a bunch of baddies rather than an open war with whoever placed the food (which will be hard to find). It will also create a bigger role for rangers and druids that is true to their nature. Also a way to use the overabundance of resources cities seem to have. Ranger patrols would become a more common thing to monitor areas! And cities and settlements would be forced to engage druids in their efforts, creating interesting city/nature tensions (why should I as a druid help you cordor official. Go fight the baddies if you want to, but I will not protect your city). Seeing a system like this revamped might get me to play a Druid

[Mythic]

I love the idea of the balance system but I have never heard of it used effectively for a number of reasons. For those that don't dig into the wiki and deeply read everything (which you would probably have to do to find out about this) here is the description:

2.) "A Druid may use the -balance Console Command, once per day, to alter the balance of an area. " First this is unclear if this is per in character day or per RL day. However, either way, 7 characters typed by one of the most common classes on the server and bam, whatever money you invested in dumping resources into an area is gone!

The result is that it is just too easy to negate efforts to set an area off balance. I would suggest a few things:

1.) Make Balance and Track a spell in the Druid/Ranger Spell book respectively. This creates a cost to using this ability and is now available in haks.
2.) Make balance cost piety, like a lot of piety, on par or greater than using a resurrection scroll. 100% for level<20, 50% for level >20
3.) Increase the risk rate for an area becoming overrun! Give it a percentage chance on each monster respawn that is not negligible.
Further, shorten the time between clearing to go out of balance.

Actually the -balance command is not an immediate fix, Its 1/rest and it honestly? takes like 5-6 times to "balance" an area

The best example on the unbalancing is next to Bendir, its constantly out of Balance with goblins invading

I'd be for it being a Spell though, I think that would be interesting, having lesser/middle/greater balance that costs Piety? Though I'm not sure it would be worth it

[D4wN]

I would love this idea. Allowing more constant RP opportunities for rangers and druids would be great. Especially making it more impactful. I love the portal ideas but not sure how difficult that is to do. Angry trees are always good and having animals go beserk (-(actually have the beserk spell on them or something, maybe get them to glow red like with the Talona plague) would be fun.

In terms of it costing too much or not enough. I think it would be cool to need a bunch of druids rather then rinse and repeat a few times with one. A spell of some sort would be very fun. Especially if the spell increases in strength depending on the druids level. And totally on board with it costing piety too.

Maybe a few more ways (cheaper ways) to put the place out of balance would be neat as well. This way it might happen more frequently. But not so frequent that it gets annoying of course

I think doing more with the balance system would certainly allow for increased RP opportunities for nature walkers

[Rhavin76]

I read in another thread that the arelith wilderness is going to get an upcoming big update in a few weeks. I wonder if the current -balance script is going to be part of some of those areas. A good time as any for having a look at the functionailty of the script and revamping it where needed ?

[Durvayas]

I've never seen population scripts actually take effect on arelith proper, except for the Talassians before they got a nerf (They only became unbalanced because the dungeon was so very not worth doing(the mages were super overtuned) that nobody ran it for ages)

Also on the fixed level server, but I don't think I need to get into why that server had population issues, since it had player population issues.(and why its dead now)


Simply put, I think the population scripts need to be doubled or tripled.

Nothing ever goes out of balance, nothing ever expands outside its niche. The system may as well not exist at all at present; Its entirely unnoticable to the point that most new people aren't even aware it exists unless they read about it on the wiki.

[Edens_Fall]

So I have been running some experiments with this system for use with an RP plot. My results were . . . Less then thrilling.

While the script works and it's incredibly satisfying to see area exploded with mobs, the main issue is "cost vs reward." The amount of resources required to effect an area is rather high. When one factors in every settlements 1000% mark up on selling resources, 1000 unit limit per bundle, bundle size, and the carry weight for each, the process of transportng/funding is itself a big hurdle.

What really makes it useless however, is the ease in which it can be corrected. What amounted to a week of RP, trade deals, hiring porters, and planning a route ended in less then a RL day by a player or two typing -balance.

While a really interesting server feature, it is an old one and in need of a revamping.

To make it a more viable choice the amount of resources required to effect an areas balance should be significantly reduced. That or a druid's able to balance an area nerfed somehow. Maybe even make druids able to unbalance an area.

So yeah, that's my thoughts on the matter. A neat system for proxy conflict that currently isn't worth using in any meaningful manner.

[Void]

So I have been running some experiments with this system for use with an RP plot. My results were . . . Less then thrilling.

While the script works and it's incredibly satisfying to see area exploded with mobs, the main issue is "cost vs reward." The amount of resources required to effect an are is rather high. When one factors in every settlements 1000% mark up on selling resources, 1000 unit limit per bundle, bundle size, and the carry weight for each, the process of transportng/funding is itself a big hurdle.

What really makes it useless however, is the ease in which it can be corrected. What amounted to a week of RP, trade deals, hiring porters, and planning a route ended in less then a RL day by a player or two typing -balance.

While a really interesting server feature, it is an old one and in need of a revamping.

To make it a more viable choice the amount of resources required to effect an areas balance should be significantly reduced. That or a druid's able to balance an area nerfed somehow. Maybe even make druids able to unbalance an area.

So yeah, that's my thoughts on the matter. A neat system for proxy conflict that currently isn't worth using in any meaningful manner.

I only ever saw one area with "overflowing" status in my whole time on the server. It would be great if monster flood happened more often.

There was also that time where was a sudden slave invasion in Andonr, but players were unsure if that was DM actions or result of sewers overflowing with slaves.

It would be great if the effect of overflow was more frequent.

[Edens_Fall]

I agree, though as it is the effort doesn't warrant the results when such imbalances can be so easily corrected.

[Borin Drakkmurl]

I had made a few suggestions about this script many years ago, having interacted with it heavily on one of my characters.

The one thing I think it needs the most, is to be expanded in complexity, so that it is not just a binary thing, that can get so dull that most people won't even notice it exists. Right now, this script really only does one of two things:

- More stuff to kill.
- Less stuff to kill.

And that's it.

In a world where nearly every single bit of road connecting its settlements is beset by monsters and beasts, where monsters populate the vast majority of all wilderness areas and dungeons pop out of every corner, the balance system ends up being just another drop on a vast ocean of pve instances.

And often, it can be an annoying one, where one specific area is constantly out of balance while others never see a shift, no matter the players' efforts. The spikes in difficulty can be overwhelmingly sharp, and sometimes the way it works doesn't really make sense, theme-wise. I think I only ever saw the Forest of Despair out of balance once, while some portions of the Arelith Forest would constantly be out of whack.


So, rather than just make it another way to have yet more stuff to stab to death, it'd be neat if it added a layer of depth and texture to the game world. People have already given some good suggestions in the posts above. Here's some more:


- Watersources becoming increasingly undrinkable, with higher chancers of higher dc diseases.
- Plant resources stop producing.
- Poisonous plants overtake the land.
- Have either overabundance of predator animals, or overabundance of prey animals.
- Plague-type effects, with sick and dead spawns littering the lands.
- Vermin overtaking the land.
- Paths blocked by floods, overgrown vegetation, ice, and rockfall.

* Have druids and rangers be able to interact with these individual resource nodes and spawns for temporary fixes, rather than just rely on the -balance command.

*It sounds a whole lot more fun for a druid or ranger to be able to cast some manner of spell or ability on a water source, making it potable and drinkable for his friends, than just type a very general command.

*Or maybe interact with a dying deer to see it has signs of malnourishment and disease, and have the choice to either heal it or put it to rest, with clues gathered from the interaction as to the source of the unbalance.


Maybe there could even another tier of balance status added to some out of the way areas, something that would take more effort, but also result in some cool effects:

* An area that through specific rituals, the constant presence of druids and rangers, and X ammount of time kept in Balance, would achieve the status of Pristine Harmony.
An area with this status would be under the following effects:

- No fixtures allowed.
- Higher yield of natural resources.
- Water source that grants temporary boons.
- Rare, thematic creatures to reflect a place untouched by civilization.
- Being able to rest to 100%
- Only wild beasts and animals present, no monsters nor magical creatures.
- Thematic changes according to the area (ice, forest, desert, jungle).


And..I could go on and on with ideas for this kind of stuff.

But to sum it up:

Just make it about more than just killing things.

There's already a lot of that everywhere else.

-

[MageTankTech]

So I keep seeing suggestions about changing/rebalancing the triggers or ways to make the effects on wilderness areas more interesting. While the idea of making dangerous areas more or less dangerous based on player action sounds nice it also sounds a bit random.

With this being an RP server I am of the opinion that it makes more sense to focus on systems that influence player RP alot more. But, as far as I can see from everything stated so far the majority of focus seems to be on the RP that Rangers and Druids might get from this.

Keep in mind that this system influences the populations of humanoid races as well as animals and monsters. I would think the causes/effects and the solutions to an explosion of more civilized humanoid npc races would be a bit different.

For example, say the bandit population over near Cordor suddenly exploded. Would the natural result simply be more bodies or something else? Perhaps the bandits become more bold and attack caravans or the city proper? It was mentioned that hostile npcs could appear in the streets but if they are arriving in large numbers wouldn't it make sense for the guards and defenses of the city to be tested first and foremost? Changing this random spawn system into something more like an invasion system would allow for players in the Cordor guard to justify being more vigilant around town and maybe setting up more proper defenses. Also, having them spawn at the entrances instead of randomly all over the place would make it easier to control them and they would be less likely to harass new players who are just rping in the city at the time.

Alternatively, what if the pirate population grows out of control? You could have NPC ships causing trouble in certain sea areas or even actual invasions of cities via their ports. Also, say these pirates are supposed to be part of certain player factions. This could be incentive for players to donate more resources to their respective factions coffers because they could rely on npcs for their faction activities. Of course, since invasions of factions are supposed to be DM monitered I don't expect them to have access to those NPCs on a regular basis but at the very least they could be treated as neutral to said factions when they come in contact with them. It always struck me as odd that cultists kill fellow cultists of the same cult simply because one is a player and the other is an npc. Of course, this is expanding well beyond the scope of the -balance discussion and into something else so I won't go further into it.

Regardless I would say a more dynamic system to make npcs a more meaningful part of the world would be the best place to take this. Encouraging players to care more about the prosperity of their homes via gathering resources or preparing defenses is also in my opinion a healthy direction for the server. Also it would really increase the value of people having a "safe at home" mindset to things.

If I were to raise a counterpoint to all this it would be that casual RP will be at risk if this system becomes too dynamic and low level new players could get caught in the middle. Probably a good idea to establish a few safe areas for them to retreat to and set a few safety features like "WARNING: INVASION INCOMMING, GET TO SHELTER IMMEDIATELY". Also limiting the number of invasions per day to ensure that people still have time for "normal life" wouldn't go amiss. Of course, the same point could be made for any of the ideas posted in this thread. If this -balance system goes too off kilter it might become impossible for players to progress.

Still, as someone who has played a guard on this server before I can say that anything to break up the monotony of just standing around all day is nice.

[Sincra]

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=34934&p=275139

Here's a related thread with some info of note.

[Edens_Fall]

Ah well that answers the question! Thank you for the share.

[Edens_Fall]

After some thought, I think it would be an improvement if the ritual system could include a rite to unbalance an area rather than the current system, which is . . not practical. This would allow RP for Druids and Rangers and another method for evil to provide conflict without direct PvP.

[Irongron]

I have very rarely revisited this system, though I definitely understand why some find it appealing.

The problem for me is that enemies can spill into areas not designed for them, and as such to those that don't know about the system (of which there are many) it can feel like poor design.

Often they are too strong for the area, start fighting NPCs or overwrite enemies required for a writ, sometimes it is as simple as their looking out of place. I also find it a bit 'gamey' to leave secret presents of wood, stone, metal and food for monsters that are totally hostile (and murderous) towards our characters.

No plans to remove existing balance areas, but no plans to expand them either.

[Edens_Fall]

Thank you for the reply and answer!