Assasination Contracts | Bounty System

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Royal Blood
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Assasination Contracts | Bounty System

Post by Royal Blood » Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:35 pm

Hello,

I wanted to give an opinion on the assassination contract system. I'm wondering if this system is even valid or worth using beyond one particular scenario. So I guess i'd break assassination contracts into two types

Type 1: You place an assassination contract, probably a cheap one, then immediately assassinate a government target with the intention of forcing an election. This is the most valuable part of Assassination contracts in my opinion.

Type 2: You want someone dead due to X reason. They may not be a government official but the fact the assassination contract stands sends a message and with any luck, someone will complete it or at least you've succeeded in intimidating your enemy.

The Issue:

For type 2 I think assassination contracts are largely a joke. Someone with deep pockets will always come in and buy the contract out nullifying the point of even putting one up in the first place. This happens with the majority of contracts I've seen. Someone gets a bounty, an army goes to the assassins guild, and then the contract is immediately paid off. Heck, I've done it that way myself.

There are too many enormously wealthy characters that nullify contracts to make it worth while. And no one is going to put down a large bounty knowing there's a chance it could be removed in less then 24hrs thus wasting -all- the gold invalidating the system all together.

Why I think this should be improved:

The point I want to get at is that it's more worth my time to simply place a bounty on the bounty board and bypass the assassination mechanic all together because I know that it can be nullified immediately. So why even have the assassination mechanic then? I think it should stay, at least, to retain the ability to assassinate government officials but beyond that selective scenario I think the mechanic is largely useless.

Why would I waste time with the assassination system when I could just put up a notice on a bounty board and wait for results. And if that's the case, why even have an assassination mechanic that is more or less nullified immediately?

Suggestions to make the system Worth while:

1: I think that once a bounty is placed the bounty should remain in place for X amount of time. Maybe 1+ IG months? Give assassins time to -act- on the contract. After 1 month the contract can then be paid off, however for every month it isn't paid off the target grows in notoriety and X amount of gold is added to the contract Capping at X

I'm using X because the variables would have to be discussed in greater length and detail then I'd be able to figure out here.

2: If anything, just implement the contract stasis period. Give the contract a few months to exist, give people time to act on it, if no one is willing or able then the guild says "Meh" and just puts the contract up for buy out so they get their gold.

3: I think this part is the MOST important if the Stasis period is made to avoid cheesy abuse. The stasis period should REFLECT the amount of gold spent. So if you're just throwing up 5k gold contracts to spam people with messages that won't get protected. But say you're putting down 100k + For every 100k gold you gain X amount of months where the contract is -guaranteed- to be active.

4: When a contract is paid off the gold vanishes. It's just a gold sink and what I mean by that is its wasted on an NPC. It has no RP value. Nothing happens. The gold is just gone.

All Assassins that take up a contract get a portion of the gold when it's paid off. That means people won't blindly throw gold into the assassin system because they know paying off contracts gives ACTUAL characters gold.


5: Diplomatic Connections

I could see an issue where contracts stay up forever because no one wants to pay the guild money and pay assassins but there's also no other way to remove the contract other than paying assassins or dying.

I think -All- Settlement leaders should have the ability to nullify assassin contracts with gold paid perhaps to the NPC that handles elections. This is like 'back table' behind the scenes payment RP wise I guess. Only settlement leaders can do it though, which means your PC has to convince a settlement leader to like you. Also, this would be -exspensive-

The reason you would choose this avenue is it removes the contract and the Assassins get -no- gold.

What I hope this improves:

1: That the Assassin's guild becomes a tangible asset that can create an atmosphere of fear and risk and cannot be immediately nullified.

2: Creates more longer lived Assassin contracts giving Assassin characters a broader range of targets to go after validating Assassin RP. This adds more value to playing an assassin when contracts can be outstanding for greater periods of time. And with the notoriety system, if someone is surviving these hits they become a high value target increasing the intrigue and maybe the ego of the target

3: Paying contracts off has tangible IG ramifications. Instead of just throwing gold into a vacant NPC faction part of the gold gets routed to players meaning there's a REAL consequence for paying contracts off. If everyone just pays them off, then Assassins get rich for no work and get better gear, thus becoming more dangerous.
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Re: Assasination Contracts | Bounty System

Post by Durvayas » Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:48 am

The assassin's guild system lost its teeth when it stopped costing twice the bounty price to remove a price on one's head and the rules of engagement changed.

The fact that your character could previously bleed another character of 200000 gold by putting a 100000 bounty on their head made the system serious. The defending victim always stood to lose more, either by being killed, or by paying off the price. It made it harder for people to simply throw a purse at the guild and ignore it.

When it was dropped to a 1:1 ratio it became a zero sum game. Using the guild system is effectively pissing in the wind, and the wealthier PC will always win. Take into account that the targets are often government officials with effectively unlimited funds at their fingertips, and you see where the system becomes a bit of a joke.

As currently implemented, the system by and large actively discourages its use.
  • Bounties expire.
  • The requirement to RP with a target before attacking usually screws assassins (except shifter assassins, who pretend to be messengers for assassins, before coming back later to jump the target), by eliminating the element of surprise.
  • You will 99% of the time have better luck handling the fight like a standard gank. Bring friends, and jump the target right there, because otherwise, the target is going to jump the assassin PC on the spot a goodly portion of the time.
  • The assassin's guild bounty system, by nescessity, alerts the target, and they are on guard.
So unless your target is in office and you're after the mechanical effects of assassination, you only lessen your chances of actually successfully killing a PC by using the system at all. You will, 100% of the time, be better served just hiring random bounty hunters outside the system entirely.


Now, we can talk about why the rules of engagement for assassins were changed.
They changed because the DM team, frankly, failed in their vetting process to keep cheesy people from getting assassin tokens, and these people conspired OOCly to place bounties while assassins were, fully warded and invisible, in the same room as their targets.
Rather than adjust the rules to ensure that this scenario could not happen in a reasonable manner, and banning the cheesy players out of hand, after a rash of metagaming facilitated cheese kills, assassins had their rules of engagement changed, and wizard assassins were nerfed.

Nowadays I hear a lot about people who apply for assassin and fail to get it, which makes me feel like the DM team has learned from the past and stringently tightened their vetting process for assassin(I would say in some cases, its too tight even); But... if this is the case, why are the rules of engagement still the same?

I would argue that, if the vetting process is working now, the RoE could stand to be loosened to give assassins back the element of surprise, allowing any assassin to hit the target with zero warning after a few days have passed, or allowing assassins to use proxies or messengers to let their target know they are coming.
I'm imagining scenarios where assassins can actually send their targets calling cards so they know they're being hunted (or the black spot, for those piratey PCs), things that are, per the current rules, 100% not viable, unless your PC is handing it to them directly like Inigo Montoya announcing he's just waiting around to kill the protagonist of the princess bride.

As someone who plays an assassin, I only recommend touching the system at all to kill an elected official.
Any other target, I recommend to (and personally do) just contract it out privately, where my PC's target can't just buy out their contract without offering the goons at least double, and they get no warning that the hit is coming until the squad is already rolling up.
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Drowble Oh Seven
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Re: Assasination Contracts | Bounty System

Post by Drowble Oh Seven » Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:57 am

Royal Blood wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:35 pm
3: Paying contracts off has tangible IG ramifications. Instead of just throwing gold into a vacant NPC faction part of the gold gets routed to players meaning there's a REAL consequence for paying contracts off. If everyone just pays them off, then Assassins get rich for no work and get better gear, thus becoming more dangerous.
I've had little to do with the official assassination system (despite playing two characters that were mechanically assassins); but just wanted to chip in and say this sounds like a really cool idea. I love consequences. I love the implication of paying a bounty off still meaning that you're giving money to some very nasty people.

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Dreams
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Re: Assasination Contracts | Bounty System

Post by Dreams » Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:50 am

Given that contracts now expire and the rules were changed, it is probably worth bringing back the pay-extra to pay off the bounty.

150% seems fair.
Hit placed for 10,000, pay 15,000 to remove bounty.
Removing gold from circulation is actually good for the server, but it makes sense that it would cost a target more to buy their safety.

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Re: Assasination Contracts | Bounty System

Post by Royal Blood » Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:55 am

I want to clarify that by the contract existing I mean it's in a position where it cannot be bought off for a certain amount of time likely based off of the value of the contract. That would allow assassin's time to fulfill the contract where as now you can immediately pay it off.
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Xarge VI
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Re: Assasination Contracts | Bounty System

Post by Xarge VI » Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:27 pm

You can still drain another's money$ with assassin's guild, as you get 75 or 80 % of the bounty returned if the target pays off their bounty.

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Re: Assasination Contracts | Bounty System

Post by ImWithThisGuy » Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:26 pm

Royal Blood wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:35 pm
Opening Post.
I'd have to agree you are spot on with the functionality of the guild. When it was created, it had an entirely different mechanic in mind. The system was fine and functional at the time, (disregarding the actions of problem players) however, With all the changes to that system, its been left rather broken and shattered.

The use of the guild is almost specifically and entirely for the assassination of settlement leaders. While this is thematic, it is terribly constricting. Regardless, to use the guild otherwise is a detriment to all who do so. Though I would still argue it is worse for the members than it is it's contractors.

The assassins must go after targets who have been warned once, only to warn them again. Then, if by some miracle they aren't attacked on the spot, (rightfully so; nobody with half a mind would stand there and be threatened by an assassin) they still have to return again to attempt the assassination; which in many cases will be imossible, even if the assassin isn't alone. If they do succeed, they get mere fractions of the reward someone would get from a common bounty board.

One line I really wanted to draw out..

Why would I waste time with the assassination system when I could just put up a notice on a bounty board and wait for results. And if that's the case, why even have an assassination mechanic that is more or less nullified immediately?  
This is what i feel encompasses the guild at the moment. There doesnt seem to be much incentive behind using the system, regardless of who you are. Not only are boards better options for success, they are better options for roleplay. Something the assassin's guild almost discourages; with anonymous contracting and completing said contracts, communication inside and outside the guild, and even the Engagement Rules.

I think your suggestions are many steps in the right direction, but they would be few of many more needed to fix all the problems the guild faces. (communication comes to mind; also being one of my largest issues with the guild as a whole)

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Re: Assasination Contracts | Bounty System

Post by Memelord » Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:52 pm

Hot take: the Assassin's guild is a glaring contradiction of the rest of Arelith's design philosophy. Every other possible way to force bankruptcy/a re-election onto a settlement have been systemically removed over the course of the last few years (you can't immediately tank a settlement economically anymore without exploiting, etc.); the fact that it exists at all is a major feather in the cap of Team Evil (since, well, Team Good should not be Snuggle a Bugbear hiring assassins.)

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Re: Assasination Contracts | Bounty System

Post by Durvayas » Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:01 am

Memelord wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:52 pm
Hot take: the Assassin's guild is a glaring contradiction of the rest of Arelith's design philosophy. Every other possible way to force bankruptcy/a re-election onto a settlement have been systemically removed over the course of the last few years (you can't immediately tank a settlement economically anymore without exploiting, etc.); the fact that it exists at all is a major feather in the cap of Team Evil (since, well, Team Good should not be Snuggle a Bugbear hiring assassins.)
Team good has a feather in their cap as well, in that harpers can swing elections and ignore all election restrictions.

--------------------------------

But real talk, in most instances due to how the system works....

They are warned.
You warn them again; If by some miracle your PC is not engaged immediately, you have 24 hours to engage.

This really almost always means three things. Post-RP...
A) They cast greater logoff for 24 hours.
B) They suddenly have an army around them at all times they are online for the remainder of that day, however few hours that is.
C) They gather a party, and go pay off the bounty.


Then the target returns to business as usual. In the entire time the system has existed, I think I've heard of it actually being utilized successfully maybe, maybe, eight times. Only once has the system successfully taken down an elected official. Every other kill has been some rando who couldn't afford to pay off the price on their head. By all observable metrics, the system doesn't really work.

This is compounded by the guildhouse itself being a bit of a joke, and the class being generally fairly poor at doing what its meant to do, killing people.
Assassin is not a tanky class, it does not do well in direct confrontation without heavy prep beforehand. And with the timestop nerf that prevents killing someone in a single flurry from timestopping, they generally cannot win if the RP before PvP becomes immediate PvP, which it often will.
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Re: Assasination Contracts | Bounty System

Post by Memelord » Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:06 am

I've seen high-profile assassinations have massive impacts on the server, in recent memory. I've also seen successful assassinations be played off poorly and end up backfiring horribly for those who placed the contracts. The system works fine, if you play to how the system works and use it intelligently.

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Re: Assasination Contracts | Bounty System

Post by n00bdragon » Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:14 am

The assassin's guild just needs to go. Assassins aren't very good at their job and the sort of job they should be doing (in the lore) is anathema to what players should be doing on a collaborative storytelling server. The rules of engagement take away every possibility that assassins have of winning unless targets just roll over and allow themselves to be killed. That's not to say that the rules of engagement need to change. They exist for a reason. No-RP gank killing isn't interactive and it isn't fun, either for the assassin or the target. Assassin is a class without a purpose. It doesn't belong on Arelith and that's why its guild sucks. It HAS to suck. When it doesn't suck it just makes the game a miserable experience for others.

Fixing assassins and the guild isn't a matter of steering left or right on the balance road. It's about choosing the best destination and going towards that. Instead of figuring out how to make contracts worth the time/money perhaps think about what GOOD assassin RP you'd most like to see and how, mechanically, you could best support that. What does a good assassination look like? How does it maximize the fun for the assassin AND the target? What's the most interactive and fun way someone can go about hiring assassins to kill people? What PvP-Assassination benefits does the assassin class bring to the table that makes it the superior choice for would-be assassins? I've come to really hate the whole assassin class, guild, and contract system because it belly flops on all four of these questions.
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Re: Assasination Contracts | Bounty System

Post by Artenides » Sat Oct 05, 2019 6:23 am

Hi guys,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on assassins. I can confirm that we are looking into the class and planning to add some new features to provide additional options for them other than killing PCs to collect a bounty.

Your feedbacks and ideas are always welcome though!
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Re: Assasination Contracts | Bounty System

Post by Oaks » Sun Oct 06, 2019 1:09 pm

I kind of agree with n00bdragon’s last post.

Maybe mostly decoupling assassins (+guild) from PC kills is a way to go?

Instead: Offer assassins Jobs for certain NPCs in the game. Could be boss NPCs of the module, or new politician / administration worker NPCs of settlements. Give the settlement a small bonus (+gold?) when they’re hale and productive, and a small penalty when they’re laying murdered over their desks. Either have them move about in public areas, or have them change areas regularly, put them behind locked doors and NPC guards. Limit the jobs you can take so people don’t start farming government NPCs.

Players could issue jobs to have assassins attack other settlements, putting in money.

Maybe make it so that when a job is picked up, the settlement is informed (snitches!) so that e.g. guard players can react and defend.

This could give assassins a proper stigma, too, which is good. If they’re found out they’ll be sought after. That in turn would force assassins to be careful and act lowkey, potentially leading a normal life as sleepers. (Being able to toggle death attacks on and off pending.)
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Re: Assasination Contracts | Bounty System

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:26 pm

5: Diplomatic Connections

I could see an issue where contracts stay up forever because no one wants to pay the guild money and pay assassins but there's also no other way to remove the contract other than paying assassins or dying.

I think -All- Settlement leaders should have the ability to nullify assassin contracts with gold paid perhaps to the NPC that handles elections. This is like 'back table' behind the scenes payment RP wise I guess. Only settlement leaders can do it though, which means your PC has to convince a settlement leader to like you. Also, this would be -exspensive-

The reason you would choose this avenue is it removes the contract and the Assassins get -no- gold.
I think it's easily missed that this point is actually the lynchpin in the suggestion that makes me more interested.

The problem with a delay on paying back the contract is that (for leaders) this is an incentive to, if not log off, then to hide in a corner constantly until it's paid off. And this is bad.

But this means that Settlment leaders, uniquly, -CAN- pay off contracts very quickly, but presumably at great expense. Maybe the cost should be 2 times or more the cost of the orgional contract?

I think that this option is what rounds this suggestion off into being quite workable. I like it.
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Re: Assasination Contracts | Bounty System

Post by Sea Shanties » Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:43 pm

The guild has a lot of potential and is a cool building with some quirky and funny NPCs (it's a lot like the Skyrim assassin's guild, really.) I'd also like to see it opened up and be sort of an anti-Harpers organization.

Like, what if only PCs with assassin levels were able to finish missions but the guild was open to clerics of certain deities, evil wizards and bards and so so on who would be there to help conspire and they had a version of the harper pin to ID each other. Bring a real sense that this is a guild with different roles being filled.. Right now every assassin is pretty much a loner by necessity, there's no community in the guild and that's the biggest thing that needs to change in my opinion.

Also to add.. The idea of highly organized thieves or assassins guilds that everyone knows about and are too powerful and valuable to shut down is very common in fantasy. I don't know exactly how it could or should be done but I think this is something Arelith could really use, something like Radiant Heart and the pirate system but for rogues and assassins in Cordor and ideally the upcoming Guildorand city.

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Re: Assasination Contracts | Bounty System

Post by Dr. B » Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:43 am

I would just remove the ability to pay off the bounty. It strains credulity that an organization that does business that way would even stay in business--and I mean that, since the assassin bounty boards generally see very little of it.
Artenides wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 6:23 am
Hi guys,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on assassins. I can confirm that we are looking into the class and planning to add some new features to provide additional options for them other than killing PCs to collect a bounty.

Your feedbacks and ideas are always welcome though!

This is an issue with the guild, not the class. The class is fine; it is already well balanced and too much tinkering is likely to hurt it.

I also like Oaks's suggestion.

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Re: Assasination Contracts | Bounty System

Post by Artenides » Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:45 am

Dr. B wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:43 am
Artenides wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 6:23 am
Hi guys,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on assassins. I can confirm that we are looking into the class and planning to add some new features to provide additional options for them other than killing PCs to collect a bounty.

Your feedbacks and ideas are always welcome though!
This is an issue with the guild, not the class. The class is fine; it is already well balanced and too much tinkering is likely to hurt it.
Ah I can see how my message can be misleading. We are not planning changing the assassin mechanics. We are planning to add additional contents for assassins. Things to do other than accepting contracts to kill PCs.
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Re: Assasination Contracts | Bounty System

Post by Dr. B » Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:42 am

Ah, okay. Good to know, thanks. :D

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