Class skills

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Class skills

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:45 am

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=25331

I whole heartedly agree with this philosophy. Unsure about execution.

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Re: Class skills

Post by Subutai » Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:18 am

The first problem that jumps out at me is the added power. The advantage of multiclass dips is that it requires a sacrifice. Get your discipline, tumble, and UMD as a wizard, you lose out on 3 caster levels. A Weapon Master taking a rogue dump for the skills loses out on 3 fighter levels, etc. Occasionally, this creates very interesting situations. The majority of wizards, for example, do better with Discipline and 27 levels of wizard, but Wild Mages (due to stuff like Wild Mage Avascular Mass surge) can benefit the other way. They're done for if someone with KD gets near them, but they can drop a single foe in about a second with Avascular Mass and Timestop. It's an interesting trade off.

If the skills people get from multiclassing were dropped, it would mean that suddenly all the builds that currently lose some power by taking 3 levels of another class wouldn't need to. Or you might even get people multiclassing in different ways to make their builds even more powerful by taking classes that right now don't work out because they'd make for a better build than pure wizard, or fighter/WM, but are worse than wiz/bard or fighter/rogue/WM.

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Re: Class skills

Post by Ork » Sat Sep 21, 2019 5:25 am

There's so much wrong with the mentality that classes are rigid archetypes. Bards don't have to sing. Rogues don't have to steal. Clerics don't have to preach.

Rigid brain bad & the suggestion suffers from it.

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Re: Class skills

Post by Rockstar1984 » Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:26 am

I think tumble and UMD should be left out of this, but absolutely discipline should be for every class. It was a skill made up by bioware in the first place, and it really messes with everything. Discipline should be opened up to every class.

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Re: Class skills

Post by Ebonstar » Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:54 am

simple execution.

If you dont rp during your 3-27 levels, your character gets pulled by the dms right back to level 3.

This is easy to find and do.

The dms fly about seeing what is going on and one day a new level 30 is smashing and bashing and has never been seen before in any rp situation. character is yanked to the dm lounge and dropped to level 3 and told rp your way back up to level 30 or toon gets zapped.

no changes in dipping is needed. The first time this happens will send the wake up call across the board and rp will grow and the mechanics first mentality will end.

no more out of the blue one day off the boat bootlicker to a week later seen bashing newbies for sport

over the years ive seen people complain about power creep, well the way to stop power creep and mechanics first mindset is to penalize those who think you cant rp until you hit 30.

RP Server and story driven server such as Arelith this should not be an issue. The journey to level 30 should be just as much part of the Story as the reaching the summit.
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Re: Class skills

Post by darthkitteh » Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:39 am

The trouble of changing skills, and making it more restrictive is the imbalance it would suddenly cause.
current level 30's have reaped the benefit while new players/chars will be hindered in build designs.
This makes a rather large gap where only past chars can have the "perfect" build, making them far superior.
If a change was to implement stopping skill hording, then everyone on the server would require a re-level to make sure the skills are distributed fairly.

Another point on rp, is that it is hard to judge someone elses rp, and dms can not always see every single person in the large playerbase. This is why the RPR (or what its called now) exsists, to help promote role play. And at times, some people feel like this hitting things, but would still rp if there were others around.

I dont like only giving a "problematic" side of the arguement without an idea of solution, but im afraid I cannot think of anything currently.
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Re: Class skills

Post by Reallylongunneededplayername » Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:42 am

I'm seriously in favor of having all classes open to every skill.

With the odd ones:

Animal empathy: Causes you to speak animal language at 30 points

"Jack the stable boy was always good with horses, Now he works as a soldier, Feeding birds on the outpost.. I think he actually talks to them"

preform gives you acces to -sing wich just gives the floating notes above your head.

"Leah might be a silly wizard, But when she is reading she always hums such a wonderfull tune".

I thought this would be a fun one:

UMD

"Kronk has been waving that wand all week, I know it look silly, But now he is waving it and badgers keep appearing around him!"

But, Yes.. Who cares for multi-class. Just let imagination go wild and give us acces to some creative new roleplay builds and boring powerbuilds.
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Re: Class skills

Post by Might-N-Magic » Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:20 am

Rockstar1984 wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:26 am
I think tumble and UMD should be left out of this, but absolutely discipline should be for every class. It was a skill made up by bioware in the first place
You're absolutely right. Enjoy trying to make your opposed strength and dexterity checks instead.

You apparently don't realize it, but you got off light. Every wizard and cleric would be eating dirt and fumbling their weapons because their dex and str SUCK. :lol:

Discipline was a MERCY because Bioware is more forgiving than the Player's Handbook ever was.

And no... Don't agree with any of this. Skills monkeys are just as much a valuable party role and class strength as being a tank, buffer, heal bot or striker. You're just making the problem even worse by having full-blown wizards now sure-footed combat geniuses and acrobats when they're not supposed to be anywhere near the front line. (Bad enough they already have too much AC.) What next? Suing for spot and listen even though their party role (remember that word) isn't supposed to be stealth detection? At least now they have to pay for it with a resource they only have 3 of, classes.

There are reasons why those skills belong to those classes just as there's reasons why this or that class has 6 or 8 skill points while others have 2. It's the same reason Rogue doesn't come with a spellbook.

I get it. Some people want their Wizard to be Superman. They don't want to give up a class pick to get another class's goodies. They don't want to give up anything and they're just fine diluting the power of other classes just so their main can be even more powerful. Something tells me they'd crap bricks if they saw a Fighter cast a DC 44 Wail of the Banshee though.
Reallylongunneededplayername wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:42 am
I'm seriously in favor of having all classes open to every skill.
Skill. Monkey. Is. A. Party. Role.

These boards are looking too much like WoW's class boards, nothing but people wanting each other's goodies all the time...

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Re: Class skills

Post by Reallylongunneededplayername » Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:03 pm

Might-N-Magic wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:20 am

Party.
Wich I often do not have, I'm EU and on weekdays and find myself with 5-10 people on the server of wich maybe non are compatible with my level to do contracts with.

So, Yes, UMD on a fighter at lvl 5 as sample would be neat.

But some skills would be logic RP wise to have on all classes aswell from the top of my head: Intimidate, Appraise, Ride, Spot, Listen.

Some could add flavor to characters: Preform, Animal empathy, Bluff..

One sample I'd totally see myself RPing if a full Barbarian with lockpick that would "Cut the lock" instead of bashing the chest.

Anyway, My point is: More skills, More diversity, Less skill dumping, more logic.
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Re: Class skills

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:50 pm

Ork wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 5:25 am
There's so much wrong with the mentality that classes are rigid archetypes. Bards don't have to sing. Rogues don't have to steal. Clerics don't have to preach.

Rigid brain bad & the suggestion suffers from it.
The suggestion covers a real issue in the hearts of both new and many players. Many players will want to just pick a class based off its implied essence while knowing very little around the mechanics.

Skill dumping is only a thing because how base nwn was scripted, im not saying we should take it away, but many players feel like they have to do rp gymnastics to "get into their character" with as is meta and calling them rigid thinkers will not change that.

And the guy has other points i agree with.

Yes a bars doesn't have to sing, but how a lvl 27 fighter goes from knowing nothing about spells to being an archmage knowledge of spells is effectively what Skill dumping does. "What you see is what you get." And what we see is characters over night becoming as good as tumblers as an epic tumbler has been practising his while life in the course of a single night.

When i made my kensai monk, i literally had him put off monk levels (started with 3 though because of his background before coming to arelith) till he had a proper teacher. I would never expect/demand every other monk player to do the same kind of RP investment, like my say of doing it is not the only way.

However, the building community/meta do create expectations from players in a way that makes it feel like that the meta way is the only way and it for some players it creates a disconnect from them ans their character. Like why and how do their characters go from 0 to 30 ranks in tumble and discipline? I enjoyed rping the development or my monk/fightrr/cot, every step of his progress i had proper rp and actions to back it up. Skill dumpimg removes that oppurtunity and, or sense of continuity.

That being said, as some have pointed out, simply adding class skils to everyone would remove cool cookies we been able to pure builds (though the cookies will NEVER BE FULLY worth giving up on umd, tumble, discipline, and when they do, they occur nerfs because people don't like how it "ruins it" or gets exploited, etc. (Which i don't disagree with half the time). So, i can appreciate and understand why we have level dip meta. Skill dumping though magnifies the problem in terms of making some players finding it hard ti justifying the dip. Its one thing to take class "x" to get better a not tripping, etc. Its another thing to somehow save up skillpoijts so class x is a lot more useful then and it would have been earlier, suddenly becoming gods of tumbling and discipline.

Lets be clear, I am not shaming the players that do this. Its partially/mostly nwn fault. In 3.5 DnD tumble does not give ac and their is no discipline skill. A wizard could also just fly and never get touched, but lets not go there right now lol. NWN mechanics demands it, not arelith nor the building community, that being said, i still creates a stumbling block for a lot of "rigid thinkers" (i call them people who just roleplay different from you). I would love to see that stumbling block remove as i appreciate "rigid minds" and the creativity/commitment they bring to their characters.

I admit i do not have an easy answer and for many of you the easy asnwer os for the other players to change their mindset, I hope we xan still do better though.

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Re: Class skills

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Sat Sep 21, 2019 5:11 pm

Might-N-Magic wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:20 am
Rockstar1984 wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:26 am
I think tumble and UMD should be left out of this, but absolutely discipline should be for every class. It was a skill made up by bioware in the first place
You're absolutely right. Enjoy trying to make your opposed strength and dexterity checks instead.

You apparently don't realize it, but you got off light. Every wizard and cleric would be eating dirt and fumbling their weapons because their dex and str SUCK. :lol:

Discipline was a MERCY because Bioware is more forgiving than the Player's Handbook ever was.

And no... Don't agree with any of this. Skills monkeys are just as much a valuable party role and class strength as being a tank, buffer, heal bot or striker. You're just making the problem even worse by having full-blown wizards now sure-footed combat geniuses and acrobats when they're not supposed to be anywhere near the front line. (Bad enough they already have too much AC.) What next? Suing for spot and listen even though their party role (remember that word) isn't supposed to be stealth detection? At least now they have to pay for it with a resource they only have 3 of, classes.

There are reasons why those skills belong to those classes just as there's reasons why this or that class has 6 or 8 skill points while others have 2. It's the same reason Rogue doesn't come with a spellbook.

I get it. Some people want their Wizard to be Superman. They don't want to give up a class pick to get another class's goodies. They don't want to give up anything and they're just fine diluting the power of other classes just so their main can be even more powerful. Something tells me they'd crap bricks if they saw a Fighter cast a DC 44 Wail of the Banshee though.
Reallylongunneededplayername wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:42 am
I'm seriously in favor of having all classes open to every skill.
Skill. Monkey. Is. A. Party. Role.

These boards are looking too much like WoW's class boards, nothing but people wanting each other's goodies all the time...
A big part of it is the community enjoys this back and forth counter play meta vs save or die, like all top tier duels use umd. Like yeah wizards no longer get auto tripped but fighters also wouldnt have plus 1 uni saves on all equipment slots stacking. Wizards would also having flight, more epic spells, greater invisibility, mirror image, etc.


Dont forget we have a rp before fight rule too so a "traditional rogue" would normally have the upper hand by skipping this step. So they gsve the rogue other tools like unlimited loow cools down instant cast blinding speed to help cirner sneak better, again the umd meta, and higher max dex bonus ac and ab bonuses to compete with bs perma flatfoot combat expertise.

In order to make our meta reflect pnp DnD more, we would have to undo 10 years of arelith work of balancing including the naturally developing economy that made way for everyone taking umd.

Arelith's original philosophy was probably a little taboo over skill dumping as we created the 3 minimum level dip for a reason back then. But that was a decade ago.

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Re: Class skills

Post by Quidix » Sat Sep 21, 2019 5:46 pm

I might be missing something, but I really don't think this will increase the amount of RP in any way.

Opening all skills to everyone is a huge can of worm in terms of build balancing (in particular referring to opening up UMD, tumble, discipline) - it would affect all current builds and would cause a storm of feedback . It would open the door to many, many new builds, and the whole dev team would have to focus on re-balancing for the next year or more - I'd much rather the dev team spend their time elsewhere.

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Re: Class skills

Post by Ork » Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:03 pm

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:50 pm
Skill dumping is only a thing because how base nwn was scripted, im not saying we should take it away, but many players feel like they have to do rp gymnastics to "get into their character" with as is meta and calling them rigid thinkers will not change that.
Let's be clear here. The only ones that care about skill dumping are the people that don't utilize it. The "you're doing it wrong" mentality appears to be deeply entrenched in these individuals — hence, rigid brain. Roleplay is all about the back & forth, the push and pull. How people roleplay, including skill dumps, are under the full purview of that individual. Telling them they're not a pure roleplayer because of it is insulting.
Last edited by Ork on Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Class skills

Post by Dr. B » Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:05 pm

A change like this would so drastically alter the game balance that it would make almost all of the mechanical updates over the past several years a total waste of time.

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Re: Class skills

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:24 pm

Ork wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:03 pm
malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:50 pm
Skill dumping is only a thing because how base nwn was scripted, im not saying we should take it away, but many players feel like they have to do rp gymnastics to "get into their character" with as is meta and calling them rigid thinkers will not change that.
Let's be clear here. The only ones that care about skill dumping are the people that don't utilize it. The "you're doing it wrong" mentality appears to be deeply entrenched in these individuals — hence, rigid brain. Roleplay is all about the back & forth, the push and pull. How people roleplay, including skill dumps, are under the full purview of that individual. Telling them they're not a pure roleplayer because of it is insulting.
Lets be clearer here. I use skill dumps and have continuously witnessed new players who were passionate dnd before they got here the ideaof dipping their wizard into bard is a real downer for them. I never once called anyone not a pure role player, though i agree with some of the concerns of the "rigid minded" people.

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Re: Class skills

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:27 pm

Dr. B wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:05 pm
A change like this would so drastically alter the game balance that it would make almost all of the mechanical updates over the past several years a total waste of time.
This is ultimately what I have accepted, just curious if there were solutions that didnt involve "trashing the whole thing" and, or something as silly as making everyone have all class skills.

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Re: Class skills

Post by Ork » Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:45 pm

Let's digest since this topic comes up almost monthly.
malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:24 pm
im not saying we should take it away, but many players feel like they have to do rp gymnastics to "get into their character"
I haven't met players that are forced to do mental gymnastics in order to get into their character. It is your responsibility to roleplay your ability, skills, and classes. How you do that is entirely in your purview. If you don't wish to dip into other classes, that is your right — choosing not to multiclass does not make you a better roleplayer.
malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:24 pm
I hope we xan (sic) still do better though.
Arelith is the forefront of the NWN community because their overall system is unique, fun and also competitive. Prior to a lot of these changes, Arelith and other vanilla NWN servers were the playground of wizards, sorcerers and clerics. Other classes couldn't compete. With these changes, other classes have a distinct role in the game & counter-play opportunities both in PvP and PvE. This is a good thing.
malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:24 pm
it still creates a stumbling block for a lot of "rigid thinkers" (i call them people who just roleplay different from you) I would love to see that stumbling block remove
There is no stumbling block. If players are stumbling, they have the right to change how they play to avoid it.
malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:24 pm
I whole heartedly agree with this philosophy.
Let's see what you're agreeing with.
RogueUnicorn wrote:prevent that OOC building that is commonly seen. [...]Why is almost every wizard also a part-time bard? Why is almost every barbarian a bard?
Percisely the rigid brain I was talking about. What does multiclassing as a bard mean for a character? That's entirely in the purview of that player.
RogueUnicorn wrote:Try to come up with reasons to justify those decisions. I'm saying it's bad to justify multiclassing in order to have a competitive build.
This justification is called roleplay. That's what we are here for. Can you roleplay and have a competitive build? Sure. These two things are not mutually exclusive as the suggestion poster assumes.
RogueUnicorn wrote:Another way to prevent this "can't RP until level 30" mentality
This is not a prevalent mentality, and the people that do believe this are not worth acknowledging.
RogueUnicorn wrote:How are characters suddenly becoming experts in things over night? It certainly doesn't even make sense from an RP perspective.
Another assumption. The suggestion poster assumes that the player hasn't roleplayed to explain why their skills have increased "over night". Insulting to the players that do spend countless hours and time in game validating their character sheet.

Overall, this topic rotates through forum circulation almost on a monthly basis. Players that can't justify the dip seek for everyone else to suffer under their rigid view of NWN and class archetypes.

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Re: Class skills

Post by Dalenger » Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:36 pm

I don't understand where this suggestion is coming from. Is it to suggest that if it weren't for skill restrictions, people would be less keen to skill-hoard and take their levels more slowly to make time for low-level roleplay? This wouldn't solve any problems, and would only create the massive issue of disrupting every single meta in the game.

People who refuse to RP as anything other than god-tier PVPers will wait until 30 to introduce their characters, regardless of if they have their disc/Tumble/UMD dip or not. Honestly, I don't understand this mentality... the most fun I have in this game usually happens between lvls 10-20, when you're strong enough to go most places but still have to be careful with throwing your weight around. If people only ever want to play as top-tier characters, woe be it unto me to tell them how to have fun playing a video game. But this suggestion would only do bad things.
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Re: Class skills

Post by Sea Shanties » Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:13 pm

I think this hypothetical level 30 who didn't RP until they hit max level is a strawman that barely exists in game.

Some people keep their head down and grind out writs until they get to epics, sure, but that's their comfort zone. As long as they stay in character that's their business if they want to put off getting involved in factions and politics or whatever until later. There's no rule that you have to be a compelling character, only that you have to be IN character.

Lots of players have niche RP outside of Cordor and The Hub too and don't do well in big crowds. Myself included. It may look like they don't RP much because they aren't extroverted and approaching everyone they see in public but that doesn't mean they don't have extensive RP elsewhere. You simply don't know what other players and characters have going on when you don't see them. Heck DMs have unlimited powers of surveillance and they usually have no idea what non-superstar, non-extroverted players have going on.

This is a forum created problem that doesn't need a solution if you ask me.

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Re: Class skills

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:31 pm

I personally think discipline should have never existed along with tumble not granting ac which made them both mandatory skill taxes, but as Dr. B pointed out, our past decade of balance has been around assumed skill dumping.

Its how the cookie crumbles. So far i just see two sides not liking each other's philosophy (and getting a bit rigid over it) but I was hoping for discussing hypothetical alternatives that wouldnt throw 10 years of balance out the window.

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Re: Class skills

Post by Ork » Sun Sep 22, 2019 12:22 am

Go read trip in 3.5 as an action and tell me why you'd think that's a preferable alternative to our current system.

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Re: Class skills

Post by Volograd » Sun Sep 22, 2019 12:59 am

Ork wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 12:22 am
Go read trip in 3.5 as an action and tell me why you'd think that's a preferable alternative to our current system.
Good lord, I’ve given DMs brain hemorrhages using Trip Attack in 3.5. A clever player can run roughshod over most encounters using it.

FOCUS: I don’t like skill dumping and class dipping. And I used to rail against it pretty hard.

Nowadays, I feel as if I veered off course and spun out into the “wrongbadfun” zone in the past. Too much arrogance and holier-than-thou attitude.

I still find it a bit jarring when I see certain elements of dips and dumps out
In the open, but it’s rare enough that it’s not worth pressing.

I say leave it alone, although I would entertain the idea of unrestricting UMD as a cross class skill for all classes.

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Re: Class skills

Post by Durvayas » Sun Sep 22, 2019 5:18 am

Sea Shanties wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:13 pm
I think this hypothetical level 30 who didn't RP until they hit max level is a strawman that barely exists in game.

Some people keep their head down and grind out writs until they get to epics, sure, but that's their comfort zone. As long as they stay in character that's their business if they want to put off getting involved in factions and politics or whatever until later. There's no rule that you have to be a compelling character, only that you have to be IN character.
I've literally watched entire factions of characters appear, do nothing but grind for a couple of weeks, before attempting violent takeovers of settlements before. Shattering the established RP of whichever group is in control, whether they won their elections or not.

Its not a hypothetical strawman, it happens too often to be considered such.

What it IS, however, is poisonous to the roleplaying aspect of this roleplaying server, because it encourages the idea that levels are utterly imperative to have valid RP, and reinforces the silly narrative that you can't enter politics or do anything meaningful until lvl 30. They are damaging to the server, because quickgrind-takeover factions that rule with an iron fist drive people away because this is not an action PvP server. Doubly so because the players of these factions tend to get bored or banned, and when the faction vanishes it leaves the settlement to pick up the pieces and get into an RP groove again.
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Re: Class skills

Post by Ebonstar » Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:20 am

Sea Shanties wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:13 pm
I think this hypothetical level 30 who didn't RP until they hit max level is a strawman that barely exists in game.

Some people keep their head down and grind out writs until they get to epics, sure, but that's their comfort zone. As long as they stay in character that's their business if they want to put off getting involved in factions and politics or whatever until later. There's no rule that you have to be a compelling character, only that you have to be IN character.

Lots of players have niche RP outside of Cordor and The Hub too and don't do well in big crowds. Myself included. It may look like they don't RP much because they aren't extroverted and approaching everyone they see in public but that doesn't mean they don't have extensive RP elsewhere. You simply don't know what other players and characters have going on when you don't see them. Heck DMs have unlimited powers of surveillance and they usually have no idea what non-superstar, non-extroverted players have going on.

This is a forum created problem that doesn't need a solution if you ask me.
far from hypothetical, and I have seen it both on surface and in the UD many times over the years. A part that wasnt mentioned is the solo grinder who is seen one day begging for coin to by a base blade and then vanishes, only to appear two weeks later as super blademaster killing everyone in sight.

You may not see it in your introverted niche play of by all means there is nothing wrong with, but it does exist and it exists alot. Worst of all is when you see its the same player over and over and over doing the exact same thing character after character who once they get called out on it, just roll and start the whole cycle again.
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Re: Class skills

Post by Quidix » Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:24 am

I wouldn't really argue that "levelling to 30 before" is bad practice / a bad thing. But, I really don't how opening up skills as suggested will solve this problem at all? If someone has that attitude of "I want to be able to steamroll before I engage in RP", this is not doing much to change that.

And as mentioned, this "maybe fix" will massively upset balance.

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