New Wild Mage

An area to facilitate free-form feedback on systems (in-game or out) related to Arelith.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs, Contributors

Post Reply
User avatar
RedGiant
Posts: 1461
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2014 1:39 am
Location: North of Babylon

New Wild Mage

Post by RedGiant » Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:11 am

To continue this...
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=25301
...in the proper place.

My thoughts...

1) What was once an instant action to change a spell on the fly (-surge), now requires the casting of two spells. Wild Mages are now inherently clunky and not at all spontaneous.

2) Forced spell replenishment seems completely gone. Before, sure you might occasionally kill yourself or your entire party, but you could at least count on having up to six extra spells for all your trouble (at lvl 30). With an ability that could be used a maximum of 6 times per day, and that only evenly worked on lower level spells (later on medium level spells), this seemed like a decent trade off.

3) All this "greatness" now costs up to and including precious 7th lvl spell slots on already comparatively spell-starved wizards. Yes, a table rework is in the works, but this seems a bit costly just to push a sometime future random occurrence into the green zone, especially when said random occurrences, even when good, sometimes totally hoses you or your party anyway (elemental monolith replacing your buffed summons, blasphemy accidentally killing your paladin friend, etc.).

4) Now (and with the previous removal of old chaos shield), seemingly the only guaranteed beneficial thing left to the class is -fate.


I was trying to be positive with this update (and I do LOVE the spells...who doesn't love more spells?!?), but I'm really stuggling to understand...


Why play this class?



Seriously. Katana monks now look mechanically juicy compared to any Wild Mage on the server. (Extra melodrama added for Ork.) And, if you didn't go pure (-fate), I'm not really sure what you get out of the deal other than an almost guaranteed RP pariah status on par with say...playing an outcast or a monster race.
The GrumpyCat wrote:I CLICK THE HOSTIBLE BUTTON NOW U ARE DED!
Irongron wrote:The slaughter, i am afraid, will not abate.

User avatar
RedGiant
Posts: 1461
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2014 1:39 am
Location: North of Babylon

Re: New Wild Mage

Post by RedGiant » Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:20 pm

Thinking about this more, the class is substantially altered.

We used to have...
1) scaling forced surges - roll table
2) scaling replenishment
3) original chaos shield (per nwn)
then
3) new chaos, - roll table always on
4) fate - choose table

Now we have....
1) cast spell - roll table
2) cast spell - roll narrowed table
3) cast spell - roll narrower table
4) fate - choose table

Since nothing in Wild Mage substantially interacts with feat choices, the class is not really a candidate for rebuilds.

If this is now the stable equilibrium of the class, any chance of a scripted one time option to drop the class for wizard being given to existing Wild Mages?
The GrumpyCat wrote:I CLICK THE HOSTIBLE BUTTON NOW U ARE DED!
Irongron wrote:The slaughter, i am afraid, will not abate.

User avatar
Anime Sword Fighter
Posts: 581
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 10:47 am

Re: New Wild Mage

Post by Anime Sword Fighter » Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:57 pm

RedGiant wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:11 am
I'm not really sure what you get out of the deal other than an almost guaranteed RP pariah status on par with say...playing an outcast or a monster race.
Mechanics aside, this isn't a terrible thing (nor do I think it's gonna be that bad. Wild mages aren't really an asset automatically -- this person can literally accidentally drop a volcano on your head. Do you really want to party with them? Sure, they could have some tremendous power too, but you have to measure the risks of traveling with someone who decides to forgo the rules that just about every other magic user adheres. I say it's not that bad because I don't see anti-wild-mage-death-squads forming in the near future (how cool would that be though?) essentially barring wild mages from interacting with others. A better comparison would be to warlocks imo.

WJLIII3
Posts: 127
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:21 am

Re: New Wild Mage

Post by WJLIII3 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:06 am

I don't think that pariah status thing is very accurate at all. I've been playing a Wild Mage for almost a year and not one person has ever said a bad word to me about it, except right after I turned them into a cow, and even they they just grumble and tell me not to do it again. Never been kicked from a group or had any real RP consequence for it. Just grumbling.

And the beneficial thing to playing a Wild Mage has been and remains the wild surges. Now, I'm as upset as anyone about losing my repeatable animal blessings via surge, but I can still -fate a turn/level haste or an invisibility that doesn't break when I attack, and those things still happen to me at random.

The fact of the matter is, for any pure mage, wild surges are easily a net gain. They're a bunch of low Will Saves against annoying effects, OR huge, extremely powerful buffs. Sometimes (1% of 5% of the time, .05%) you hold person or put yourself to sleep, and die instantly. That's the only real trade-off, that and the spell failure ones, of which there are three. Every other negative is just silly or two-three rounds of a penalty, and many of the positives are game-changingly powerful, and haven't been changed.

So that's why you'd play the class.

But I'd say it does have a few issues, for one, there's no reason to use Nahal's Reckless dweomer. I've never used surge just to incite a surge. I can't think of any case that Nahal's would be useful except to find a secure hideaway and spam-cast and spam-rest until you have the surge you want. More abuseable, and less useable than the old surge command. Similarly, the new Chaos Shield is nice but I'd never spend a slot on it, I've been living a year without bonuses to my surge table and know how to handle that better than I know how to handle not having a Dismissal.

But my only real "objection" to the changes is the removal of the -chaos command. I understand that the DC bonuses were very powerful, I don't have strong feelings about those one way or another, but the possibility of turning the "wild" up to eleven and watching the whole world go insane was very entertaining.
Last edited by WJLIII3 on Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
RedGiant
Posts: 1461
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2014 1:39 am
Location: North of Babylon

Re: New Wild Mage

Post by RedGiant » Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:26 am

This whole thread is skewed because of my "attempt" at humor, referencing Ork's distaste for melodrama...and everything I typed after.

I'm also really not trying to provoke another "change...argh...rant" thread either, but I'm two days in and not finding much here salvageable for my character.

My main was an affable, good aligned Wild Mage who seriously considered the danger of his art and only intentionally unleashed the forces of chaos...to protect himself (old chaos shield); when his spells were low in a time of danger (replenishment); and very targeted applications when his mastery was nigh unto complete (-fate).

Even in the game, there was a previous option to go the more "Chaos Elemental" route (which got you threatened with being hunted down by the Inevitables) or going a much more thoughtful route (which my character came to typify).

As the class has changed, the mechanics push ever more toward the "Chaos Elemental" branch of the FOIG story. (I disliked the more recent chaos command because it pushed the path entire this direction, patently encouraging the in game acts of insanity you mention.) The only mechanical thing left from my character's pursuit of the "responsible" version of the path is, as discussed, -fate.

Similarly, as you, yourself admit whilst even playing the more liberal type of Wild Mage, you won't be using three-fourths of the class abilities. Me either. Houston, we have a problem.

So, I am truly desiring to know, that if this is the class, would the staff graciously consider a one-time call off of the path? It doesn't fit my character. I also submit that wild affinity fading in some individuals is no more a continuity issue than how it spontaneously arose, nor does it break the internal logic of the character's RP arc...at least not any more than not being able to do the things he could 2 days ago does.
Last edited by RedGiant on Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:43 am, edited 3 times in total.
The GrumpyCat wrote:I CLICK THE HOSTIBLE BUTTON NOW U ARE DED!
Irongron wrote:The slaughter, i am afraid, will not abate.

WJLIII3
Posts: 127
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:21 am

Re: New Wild Mage

Post by WJLIII3 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:38 am

I have no idea what "Chaos Elemental" and the "thoughtful path" refer to. Is that stuff I'm too new for?

User avatar
RedGiant
Posts: 1461
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2014 1:39 am
Location: North of Babylon

Re: New Wild Mage

Post by RedGiant » Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:47 am

There was (is?) a FOIG story-line/quest, which really shouldn't be talked much more about here. Sufficive to say, it leads to branching options for the Wild Mage. This can be struck if this is too much information for the forums.
The GrumpyCat wrote:I CLICK THE HOSTIBLE BUTTON NOW U ARE DED!
Irongron wrote:The slaughter, i am afraid, will not abate.

User avatar
RedGiant
Posts: 1461
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2014 1:39 am
Location: North of Babylon

Re: New Wild Mage

Post by RedGiant » Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:04 am

What's somewhat frustrating is that I am getting a ton of private support on this, even being egged on in other forums, but no one is actually posting in support of what I am saying about the class as it now stands. I don't know if this is because of a sense of fatigue or futility, but this is the feeback forum, so speak now or forever hold your peace. Sure, things might not change, but if you fail to tell them about it, they most certainly won't!

Before I continue, I should say, Action Replay, I love what you do. I have publically sparred with many a developer on the philosophy of this or that update, but Action is part of the small "h" holy trinity of developers that when active, at least in my opinion, turn everything they touch into gold. This was and is, of course, Iron, Scholar, and Action. [Not to take away from any of the others, but I believe we are all allowed our own personal "favs".]

That being said, and I'm trying not to wear out my welcome on this topic, but please reconsider the details of this update or allow the afore-mentioned escape clause. New Wild Mage is the Kensai of casting classes.

Did the table effects need to be balanced? Sure.
Could some of the instant abilities be tweaked? Sure.
If any of these things were done, would Wild Mage still be a "straight upgrade to wizard?" No, no it would not.

Despite some claiming Wild Mage has no drawbacks, or that they are all easily compensated for, this is simply not true.

Witness that I recently (in the last two weeks) had an epic monk (during the OP update) turned to ash by his Wild Mage companion by casting one...just one!...single benign spell on him: Bull's Strength. Despite what any "git guhd" fellow says, this "feature" of the class, and all those like it, both happen often and present /significant/ drawbacks.

As above, besides -fate, right now there is absolutely nothing in the class worth the trade-off for being a perpetual ticking time-bomb, unless you really just intended to play a ticking time-bomb all along. And in the new Wild Mage economy, you never really gain enough utility to compensate for the sacrifice and the control you might eventually exert comes at the expense of sometimes several spell slots (which most agree they cannot spare, nor will ever use).

So my suggestions are:

- Bring back forced spell replenishment in some fashion. If it was too potent before (lvl 30 Wild Mage=6xday of 50% chance to replenish a 9th lvl spell), ditch the scaling aspect. I'm okay with the flat 5% chance to replenish so potent a spell.

I.e. This table with NO modifiers. (Or something along these lines...)
Circle 1-4: Automatic success
Circle 5 Spell DC: 35
Circle 6 Spell DC: 50
Circle 7 Spell DC: 65
Circle 8 Spell DC: 80
Circle 9 Spell DC: 95

- Bring back at least the option for old chaos shield. Here again, it used to scale over time until it was almost bound to happen, not once, but several times during its duration. Heck, set it at a flat 10% chance instead. This is only 3% more powerful than the item people can carry around permanently (which many Druids already do)!

- If we want an option for people who liked chaos sans the shield, bring that back too as a branching option of the same power.
I.e., something along these lines...
ActionReplay wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:31 pm
I guess we could add in chaos shield again in the same command, aka:
-chaos shield (Has to be a space) or just make a new command for it.
Here, instead of making chaos more or less permanent, or until toggled, make it for the same limited duration as the old shield. If the scaling and DCs were too much here, drop them too!

[*Edit: Here I like the distinction of...lets call them..."-chaos shield" and "-chaos field".]


In other words, please bring back a sensible return to any of the previously existing function and utility of the class, which is more than paid for in suicides, party wipes, and turning your monk friend into ash.
The GrumpyCat wrote:I CLICK THE HOSTIBLE BUTTON NOW U ARE DED!
Irongron wrote:The slaughter, i am afraid, will not abate.

User avatar
RedGiant
Posts: 1461
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2014 1:39 am
Location: North of Babylon

Re: New Wild Mage

Post by RedGiant » Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:47 am

Continuing my one man crusade.

Is the table rework ongoing?

Right now, I can cast a 7th lvl spell and a 1st lvl spell to get...

...blinded, turned to stone, slowed, and turned into a cow.



Not kidding. This is the class currently.
The GrumpyCat wrote:I CLICK THE HOSTIBLE BUTTON NOW U ARE DED!
Irongron wrote:The slaughter, i am afraid, will not abate.

User avatar
Disciprine Come From Within
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:46 pm

Re: New Wild Mage

Post by Disciprine Come From Within » Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:18 am

Prior to the nerf, I posted a feedback thread on my feelings of Wild Mage from the lens of someone looking forward to the chaos.

The bad was that the chaos was very limited, little of it was party friendly, and the functions of the class encouraged spell replenishes over chaotic wild magic.

There is a reason Fate tends to just lead to Monolith summons or a few situational "surges". Now that those surges are now spells, that big advantage of the good side is gone. The bad remains that there is a 13% chance for a wild mage to turn himself off of casting temporarily which is just silly when I think the point should be to encourage more risk and chaos and not to turn the mage off.

The bad needs to be a little more bad, the good needs to be more party friendly, and the neutral needs to be more pointless/funny IMO.

From a storytelling perspective I really liked wild mage but I found the OOC drag of parties hating the chaos really killed my fun of the class in the end. Make that chaos a blast for everyone.

Xarge VI
Posts: 474
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:05 pm

Re: New Wild Mage

Post by Xarge VI » Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:33 pm

With the chaos shield and greater chaos shield now wild magi can make buffing up less hazardous and now that forcing surge is an actual spell those with spellcraft can recognize it and back off.

I do think the update made playing an insane invoker of chaos more difficult. However the changes give more control over the surges which is fitting for the type of wild magi who seek control, mine included.

No crit immunity and getting super spell resistance being a slim chance do make the wild magi weaker. But I haven't found these updates to effect my playing experience in a negative way at all. Although I did like seeing the ghostly fog rising from my character.

The sole utility for those surges is really only in soloing epic bosses and Pvp. Former being meant for parties and Pvp is Pvp, wizards without crit and immunity or 80 spell resistance can win pvp too.

Cagus
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:53 pm

Re: New Wild Mage

Post by Cagus » Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:48 pm

Imho this downgrade made wild mages dull and uninteresting class.

There were 4 aspects of a wild mage
5% surging with replenish
command surging with replenish
chaos with increased DC (I was never a fan of this tho)
fate

Two of these were taken away. And I really mean taken away, because there is no reason to waste spellslots of 1, 2, 7 circle of spell to do surging at all.
When you are buffing your party, you don't want surging, because there is a chance of interrupting your queue or even kills your party members. With pushed command surging, there was a gain in the chance of replenishing spell you needed/wanted to cast one more (someone joins after you prepared your spellbook and rested), but this was taken away.
When you are in fight, you won't use there surge spells, because you lose action (round of half a round).
The wildmage unique spells worth were take away or given as a spell to any mage.
This means, there is no reason whatsoever to push any surging.
Chaos as the state (command) was taken away, and there is no universe where spending 7th (nor 2rd) circle spellslot is worth of the given effect. And even to think you would be spending action in fight for it...

For wildmage as it is now, I see the best gain is to close the gap, ignore the 1,2,7 wild mage spells, and on high level, just try fate monolith once per rest.



Once again I don't understand, why the nerfing is done with a chainsaw instead of a scalpel.
I don't know what lead to the notion, that wild mage is mechanically broken and has to be remade.
Only strong advantages I see could be:
Combat Ready, Spell Resistance and Ghostform
these could be just put in no-fated+no-chaosmoded list, even if they are strong, I don't see the problem when you need to cast 2000 (resp. 1000 with boon) casts. Even with permahaste, that means 100 (resp. 50) minutes of uninterrupted casting on average, but still, there is a chance you know how happy it makes you if something nice proc on surge
bonus DC from Chaos mode
take the DC away, but why to take the whole chaos mode?
6x per day attempt on chance for spell replenish
So you have six times chance on proc of replenishing one spell out of 65 spellslots
You could tone down the numbers of probability if you feel this is game-breaking features, but why to vanquish it altogether?

And if you want to do nerfing, do it in the way, which fits the class. Wild mage supposes to be highrisk-highreward kind of mage. If you want to nerf it, increase the risk side. Make more negative surges without save. Make more selfharmful effects if you are already under the effect of surge from before. You could even add the minus subtractor for the roll (opposite of what the new chaos shield does with +20 +40) like -1 for over exceeded surging.
Or bring more negative effects which hurts, like spent 10 spellcomponents, or clear some random spellslots from the spellbook or I don't know.. give it a thought for more than 5 seconds like me.
There are so many options how subtly make nerf-changes which doesn't feel like emasculation of the class.
You have server where every fighter is running around with 40 saves and piles of stocks of timestop scrolls, this wouldn't seem to me as necessary changes at all.

Also what this class needed was wild mage sorcerers (or maybe even bards!).


Conclusion

IMO this change didn't improve anyone's play-time, only took the fun out of our characters.
Last edited by Cagus on Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Kuma
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 2188
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:05 pm
Location: Melbourne

Re: New Wild Mage

Post by Kuma » Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:00 pm

As the player of a pure wild mage, the nerf was necessary and hasn't really impacted my play whatsoever.

I also preferred the *first* iteration of chaos, and never ever once used -chaos when it got changed.

House Freth: Reference Information
House Claddath: Reference Information
"What's a heretic?": a guide to religious schism terminology

Irongron wrote:

4. No full screen images of the NWN gnome model (might frighten the children)


User avatar
RedGiant
Posts: 1461
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2014 1:39 am
Location: North of Babylon

Re: New Wild Mage

Post by RedGiant » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:01 am

Cagus perfectly summed up where I was and am with the changes.

You have helped me hone my thoughts on replenishment, in that it was a tangible benefit that incentivized Wild Mages to use their power. As above, now I don't use any power but -fate. While this was and is a cool ability, I don't foresee myself ever slogging through 28 levels of this class to get there again, because the 5% tax I pay on literally every spell I cast doesn't balance well.

Here I concede Xarge's point that, in theory, you could sacrifice your 7th lvl spells slots to mitigate the ill effects of passive surges. As the player of a generally good and cautious Wild Mage, I am happy this is even a possibility. Without a table rework, however, this is still just a theory. It is also so steep a price that even my generally good Wild Mage probably won't pay it, even if it does get reworked.

I've stated all my ideas on this thread before, so while there's nothing new here, I'm happy to see that Kuma at least is with me on old chaos. I've idly been tempted to sacrifice my last epic foci at lvl 30 for the shield proficiency feat, just to lug around a small chaos shield, since it was both a long established ability and one that I thoroughly enjoyed.
The GrumpyCat wrote:I CLICK THE HOSTIBLE BUTTON NOW U ARE DED!
Irongron wrote:The slaughter, i am afraid, will not abate.

Nitro
Posts: 2800
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:04 pm

Re: New Wild Mage

Post by Nitro » Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:22 pm

I'm generally in favor of the changes, wild mage's arent a strict upgrade to a regular wizard anymore, but they're not a downgrade either. They're a chaotic element that's a sidegrade. You get spell surges which are both good and bad, and some means to force a surge to happen.

chris a gogo
Posts: 473
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:41 pm

Re: New Wild Mage

Post by chris a gogo » Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:29 pm

Cagus summed it up perfectly.

Im sure the changes are mechanically fine but when I made a wild mage I wanted fun, no fun no character.Rolled.

Xerah
Posts: 2037
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:39 pm

Re: New Wild Mage

Post by Xerah » Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:31 pm

Big fan of the adjustments and now looking forward to playing another one to 30.
Katernin Bersk, Chancellor of Divination; Kerri Amblecrown, Paladin of Milil; Xull'kacha Auvry'rae, Redcap Fey-pacted; Sadia yr Thuravya el Bhirax, Priestess of Umberlee; Lissa Whitehorn, Archmage of Artifice

Cagus
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:53 pm

Re: New Wild Mage

Post by Cagus » Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:00 am

Xerah wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:31 pm
Big fan of the adjustments and now looking forward to playing another one to 30.
Hi,
don't take this as a provocation, but can you list the exact adjustments, which would make you start over to level wild mage to 30 instead of playing the one you already have?
I just see the things taken away, nothing new added, which piques my curiosity. So maybe I overlooked something.

Xerah
Posts: 2037
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:39 pm

Re: New Wild Mage

Post by Xerah » Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:40 pm

Cagus wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:00 am
Xerah wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:31 pm
Big fan of the adjustments and now looking forward to playing another one to 30.
Hi,
don't take this as a provocation, but can you list the exact adjustments, which would make you start over to level wild mage to 30 instead of playing the one you already have?
I just see the things taken away, nothing new added, which piques my curiosity. So maybe I overlooked something.
I mean a new character. Already rolled a lvl 30 one a year ago. I'm interested in playing one again because they are not the most optimal choice which I usually find lame.
Katernin Bersk, Chancellor of Divination; Kerri Amblecrown, Paladin of Milil; Xull'kacha Auvry'rae, Redcap Fey-pacted; Sadia yr Thuravya el Bhirax, Priestess of Umberlee; Lissa Whitehorn, Archmage of Artifice

Post Reply