Ranger FE boost

[Hunter548]

So, the small boost to the number of FEs rangers get is nice. However;

1) The update to HAKs and subsequent change to monster races meant that "player" Favored Enemies went from 6 (Human, Half Elf, Half Orc, Dwarf, Halfling, Elf) to (Human, Half Elf, Half Orc, Dwarf, Halfling, Elf, Goblin, Reptillian, Orc, Giant, Undead (?), Outsider (?), Fey) - an increase of 5-7 total player FEs.

2) The recent update gives an increase of 1-2 for most rangers, depending on how much wisdom they have.

3) Ranger level four spells suck. They're extremely bad, and the only one of them worth casting rangers get automatic wand access to. For that reason, 14 wisdom is usually a waste, even with the extra FE tied to it.

4) To keep roughly the same coverage rangers had prior to the HAK update, rangers need to pick up 3-4 more FEs total (That is, from the prior-to-today scaling of 1/5 ranger levels for studied enemies).

leading to:

5) Today's update doesn't go far enough to help the ranger FE issue. Most rangers pick up 1-2 depending on how much wisdom they have, and end up needing another 1-2 more. Giving up dips to get the two extra FEs at 27 and 30 is a possibility, but not a realistic one. Instead of the scaling that was added today, ranger studied enemy progression should be something like (ranger level + base wisdom modifier) /3. It's significantly simpler to explain to new players, still gives incentive to take higher wisdom and higher ranger levels, and gives the average ranger a larger boost than the current one without giving them the ability to pick up every favored enemy (without sacrificing PVE favored enemies)

[Subutai]

Ever since the subrace hak, I've seen people saying that rangers need more favored enemies to account for all the new subraces, but I haven't seen anyone answer (or even ask), why should rangers be able to have every, or almost every, subrace as a favored enemy?

Favored Enemy gives a whole slough of bonuses against favored enemies. Is ranger so underpowered against non-favored enemies that they can't hold their own in PvP against anything that isn't a favored enemy? Or do ranger players just want their bonuses to apply to more subraces to expand their PvP advantage?

[Peppermint]

Unless I'm missing something, I'd consider nixing the wisdom bonus altogether. For reasons I outlined in the bug report thread, It doesn't seem to serve much purpose to me except to obfuscate and confuse new players. You might as well just add +1-2 to the total if that's the plan.

Is ranger so underpowered against non-favored enemies that they can't hold their own in PvP against anything that isn't a favored enemy?

This is basically it. Rangers are very, very dependent on favored enemy bonuses to do anything. Personally, I feel it'd be better to ditch the mechanic and just give rangers a flat bonus. Easier to balance that way, too. However, it's so iconic that I don't think it'll go any time soon.

Incidentally, the original design document for rangers presented favored enemies as dynamic. Rather than studying, they'd have gained a number of dynamic favored enemy slots that would be filled automatically based on the total hit dice of creatures they'd slain (barring bosses). The idea was that ranger favored enemies would shift naturally based on what the ranger was fighting, which makes selection easier for new players and also ensures that favored enemies remain relevant regardless of the server environment.

This was altered when I stepped down. Rangers were no longer my project, and the new team elected to take them in a more static direction. I feel the study approach has merits as well, though it may need to be a little more flexible.

[Subutai]

As Zavandar mentioned in that thread, giving them a new FE every 3 levels would be basically equivalent to that.

What about every 3 levels, and nix half-elf and half-orc as separate racial types. In 3.0/3.5, half-elves and half-orcs aren't racial types. Half-elves are covered under Elves, and Half-orcs are covered under Orcs. That would mean there would only be an increase in player races of 3-5 (if including Outsider and Undead), instead of 5-7.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I feel like they went middle ground. As some, such as myself, feel like surface rangers now need less favoured enemies than before. Like if hunting goblins and orcs is there thing then they only need goblins and orcs. Not goblins, halforc, halflings and orcs.


Rangers are technically supposed to be specialists not necessarily "im always in all builds good at all the pvp races".

I much rather see favoured enemies bonuses actaully give bonus to attack rather than more favoured enemies in the name of speciality.

But specialty debates aside (which would be an endless circle argument of preferences/philosophy) I feel using hak to make half races count as both races would solve much of the problem. (Technically monks should count also as outsiders). Like a ranger with favoured enemy orcs should get orcs, half orcs, orogs, etc.

Like wise, favoured enemy human should get humans, half elves, half orcs.

[Hunter548]

Favored Enemy gives a whole slough of bonuses against favored enemies. Is ranger so underpowered against non-favored enemies that they can't hold their own in PvP against anything that isn't a favored enemy?

Basically, yes. Rangers suck versus non FEs - they're basically vanilla fighters. If you're not regularly fighting your favored enemies, your ranger would be much better off as a particularly nature-friendly rogue. Rogues, after all, do comparable/more damage to anything they can sneak than rangers to do FEs, but don't have to worry about the racial types, have grenades to cover a lot of stuff they can't sneak, and have all the rogue-specific stuff on top of it.

I feel like they went middle ground. As some, such as myself, feel like surface rangers now need less favoured enemies than before. Like if hunting goblins and orcs is there thing then they only need goblins and orcs. Not goblins, halforc, halflings and orcs.


Rangers are technically supposed to be specialists not necessarily "im always in all builds good at all the pvp races".

I much rather see favoured enemies bonuses actaully give bonus to attack rather than more favoured enemies in the name of speciality.

But specialty debates aside (which would be an endless circle argument of preferences/philosophy) I feel using hak to make half races count as both races would solve much of the problem. (Technically monks should count also as outsiders). Like a ranger with favoured enemy orcs should get orcs, half orcs, orogs, etc.

Like wise, favoured enemy human should get humans, half elves, half orcs.

The problem with them being a specialist class is that they don't significantly outperform the generalist classes against their specialization. They already get AB vs Favored Enemies from Bane of Enemies; If you make them strong enough versus their specializations to stand against the generalist classes, they're going to be overpowered versus whatever their specialized area.

I'm not suggesting rangers should be able to get every favored enemy, just that they should be able to get, more or less, the same coverage of PvE and PvP races as they could before the HAK update. There's currently 24 favored enemies possible to pick up. A move from 9-10 (Currently) to 12-14 isn't "all of them".

[Moonlight Knight]

Gotta agree with you here, rangers really need something to compensate for now getting much less mileage out of Bane of Enemies.

[Sea Shanties]

Ever since the subrace hak, I've seen people saying that rangers need more favored enemies to account for all the new subraces, but I haven't seen anyone answer (or even ask), why should rangers be able to have every, or almost every, subrace as a favored enemy?

That's a fair point but I have to wonder why a ranger would be so specialized they'd be a deadly assassin when it comes to lightfoot halflings but the very, very similar stronghearts would be completely foreign to them. PC subraces could just stand to be lumped together a bit, PVE seems like a whole different thing.

Also I don't play a ranger currently so I have no idea if this is the case since the change with haks-- but presumably when "studying" you have to find the subrace now as NPCs? If that's the case do all PC subraces even exist as NPCs? If I have that wrong please forgive me.

Though maybe one solution could be to allow classes as FE or something? I could see a ranger who's specialized against wizards or druids regardless of race. Just a thought that I'm sure would not likely happen.

[Tarkus the dog]

just make every race a favored enemy and be done with it

[Peppermint]

From an actual game design perspective, the current approach is pretty unhealthy. You get this binary situation where rangers are either very good or actual garbage based on whether their current target is a favored enemy.

And that's no surprise. In PnP, rangers can work with their DM to pick a set of enemies that make sense--and in turn, the DM will tend to provide encounters that cater to the ranger's strengths. On Arelith, there is no DM, and the environments are much more varied. You'll find bugbears next to goblins next to gnolls and so on and so forth. Typically not so in PnP. The concept of favored enemies just doesn't translate well into a PW setting.

Ideal fix? Nerf favored enemy damage bonuses but give rangers a universal buff to compensate. Favored enemies should account for no more than a few points of a ranger's damage. Rangers should fare better against favored enemies without being overwhelmingly better; they should do a little worse against non-favored foes without being crippled.

Result: rangers perform much more consistently (good for balance) while also maintaining the iconic favored enemy bonuses in a scaled back (and healthier!) form.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

The on/off switch trend of rangers with the addition of FE has certainly turned me off from playing the class.

To echo Peppermint, and with the new capabilities of haks, I'd really really like to see some implementation of Favoured Terrain be implemented. Or just better wildlife/survival mastery all together.

We've gotten a bit of that with HiPS in [nature] zones, but I think there's more that can be done.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Favored Enemy gives a whole slough of bonuses against favored enemies. Is ranger so underpowered against non-favored enemies that they can't hold their own in PvP against anything that isn't a favored enemy?

Basically, yes. Rangers suck versus non FEs - they're basically vanilla fighters. If you're not regularly fighting your favored enemies, your ranger would be much better off as a particularly nature-friendly rogue. Rogues, after all, do comparable/more damage to anything they can sneak than rangers to do FEs, but don't have to worry about the racial types, have grenades to cover a lot of stuff they can't sneak, and have all the rogue-specific stuff on top of it.

I feel like they went middle ground. As some, such as myself, feel like surface rangers now need less favoured enemies than before. Like if hunting goblins and orcs is there thing then they only need goblins and orcs. Not goblins, halforc, halflings and orcs.


Rangers are technically supposed to be specialists not necessarily "im always in all builds good at all the pvp races".

I much rather see favoured enemies bonuses actaully give bonus to attack rather than more favoured enemies in the name of speciality.

But specialty debates aside (which would be an endless circle argument of preferences/philosophy) I feel using hak to make half races count as both races would solve much of the problem. (Technically monks should count also as outsiders). Like a ranger with favoured enemy orcs should get orcs, half orcs, orogs, etc.

Like wise, favoured enemy human should get humans, half elves, half orcs.

The problem with them being a specialist class is that they don't significantly outperform the generalist classes against their specialization. They already get AB vs Favored Enemies from Bane of Enemies; If you make them strong enough versus their specializations to stand against the generalist classes, they're going to be overpowered versus whatever their specialized area.

I'm not suggesting rangers should be able to get every favored enemy, just that they should be able to get, more or less, the same coverage of PvE and PvP races as they could before the HAK update. There's currently 24 favored enemies possible to pick up. A move from 9-10 (Currently) to 12-14 isn't "all of them".

This is where i just disagree preference wise and why i disclaimed myself earlier lol.

What some consider bad things, i consider good things.

[Mattamue]

According to this post: viewtopic.php?p=198778#p198778 subraces (even the new hak ones) fall under a base race.

Based on the June player numbers, 9 FE/SE gets you around 95% of characters.

[Cagus]

Even just grouping some races would solve the problem (in the fashion like hide-ms double feats, I take one I get second for free).

Just examples could be:
Reptilians Dragons
Elves Fey Half-elves
Orcs Half-orcs
Monstrous Oozes Shapechangers (yeah, no oozes, we know)
Animals Beasts Magical beasts Vermin

[chris a gogo]

So the complaint is with all the added bonuses the class has gotten it needs more because you can't select every single playable race as a favoured enemy now?

[MissEvelyn]

So the complaint is with all the added bonuses the class has gotten it needs more because you can't select every single playable race as a favoured enemy now?

That's how I'm reading it as well.

[Hunter548]

So the complaint is with all the added bonuses the class has gotten it needs more because you can't select every single playable race as a favoured enemy now?

That's how I'm reading it as well.

Which is strange, because that's not at all what I wrote.

It's really simple math: Prior to the change to haks, rangers got x favored enemies. X constituted y% of the total pool of favored enemies that were "useful" in some way (basically, ignoring the stuff that stops showing up at low levels, or is represented only in a couple of dungeons, or whatever. Whatever metric you want to apply) and y did not equal 100%.

The change over to haks increased the total pool of "useful" favored enemies, by making things like goblinoid, reptillian, orcs, etc useful now. This constitutes a nerf to rangers because it means that the previous pool of favored enemies they got is now less of the total number of favored enemies you'd want than it was previously.

No one is suggesting you should be able to get every player race, or every favored enemy. There's 24 total favored enemies in NWN, and 13 player races. No one's suggesting anything close to that; If you drop studied enemies to 1/3 ranger levels, pure rangers would get every player race (by sacrificing some PvE stuff), while the very vast majority of rangers would get 11 total enemies; not even enough to get every player race, even with ignoring PvE races. You could give a more conservative increase of studied enemies, but rangers should probably get an increase since the movement to haks was (presumably) not meant to be a nerf.

[chris a gogo]

Quick question I've never had a ranger here does FE stack to ab as well as damage or is it just +7 damage/listen/spot/taunt, Then bane of enemies adding +2 ab and 2d6 damage on top?

[Hunter548]

The latter.