Assassin Feedback Request

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ImWithThisGuy
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Assassin Feedback Request

Post by ImWithThisGuy » Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:04 pm

Heya!

It seems no matter how much time passes, I just cant help but make these posts again- out of curiosity if nothing else. And with the suggestion thread open again, I figured now would be a good a time in the case the community has any.


Anyway, Before I further digress, I wanted to gather people's thoughts and opinions on the Assassin class as it is on Arelith:
(Feel free to answer any or all :) )



What is it good at?

What is it bad at?

How are they in PvE? PvP?

What are your thoughts on the changes they have received?

What does it need (if anything), and if you could change any one thing about it, what would it be?

What makes it different than similar classes? (Rogue, ranger)

What incentivizes players to play it?

Would you recommend it to other players? If so, newer players?

What purpose does the class serve?

Is the class thematic to Arelith?

Any other comments?


(Each question in the realms of both mechanical-ability, and roleplay-ability, where they apply.)


Thanks in advance for any feedback!

malcolm_mountainslayer
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Re: Assassin Feedback Request

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:34 pm

I think the class is mechanically at a good spot right now.

There has already been an approved suggestion to deattach the class from the guild. So that the guild itself (and it's pvp implications) requires approval rather than the assassin class.

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Dr. B
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Re: Assassin Feedback Request

Post by Dr. B » Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:19 pm

I’m currently playing a strength-based ranger/assassin/blackguard and loving every moment of it. The “hidden danger” bonus to AB is a nice perk, as is the access to poisons. I recommend going herbalist if you play as one.

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Durvayas
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Re: Assassin Feedback Request

Post by Durvayas » Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:38 am

Its great at PvE.

It is generally fairly meh at PvP.

Some people play assassin for the RP. A lot of them, unfortunately, seem to play it for the looser PvP rules. The vetting process leaves something to be desired. People want to detach assassin tokens from the class because the class is fairly lackluster in PvP, due to death attack being a steaming pile of shit. PvP centric people want to play assassins without having to actually play assassins.

I think detaching the guild from the class is an awful mistake, and you'll probably see more cheese down the line with assassin tokens on pure wizards or 20/7/3 WMs.

The only thing that makes it materially different than rogue and ranger is it can endlessly remain scry-proof, and constantly under either ghostly or etherial visage as long as it wants.

I don't recommend it to newbs. I do recommend it to people who want to actually do assassin training/mentorship RP.

Overall, the class is fairly well balanced. I think poisons are still awful, and could use another look, since only two are considered remotely viable, and the guild itself needs a total overhaul, to attract RP to it (right now, its basically a motel), but the class is fairly fine at this point.

If anything, I'd suggest giving it a free weapon focus in dagger, for the sake of theme.
Plays: Durvayas(deleted), Marco(deleted), Hounynrae(NPC), Sinithra Auvry'ndal(rolled), Rauvlin Barrith(Active), Madeline Clavelle(Shelved)

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Drowble Oh Seven
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Re: Assassin Feedback Request

Post by Drowble Oh Seven » Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:38 am

It's a tremendously fun class, I find. And one of the best ways to make a sneak-archer that don't result in an insatiable urge to tear our your own eyeballs due to a lack of darkness wands. There's more mechanically optimal builds, for sure, but Assassin has some great PvE quality of life going on.

Assassin RP can be wonderful too.

n00bdragon
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Re: Assassin Feedback Request

Post by n00bdragon » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:02 am

Durvayas wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:38 am
The only thing that makes it materially different than rogue and ranger is it can endlessly remain scry-proof, and constantly under either ghostly or etherial visage as long as it wants.
Ghostly and Ethereal Visage do not block scrying. Assassins have ways to do this but that isn't it. Having played an assassin with a HEAVY investment in the class and poisons and the guild I feel well informed when I say this... the guild and the token and the PvP leniency should probably just be removed. Just make them evil squishy rogues who are godlike at a particular brand of PvE and forget about them. The class is hot steaming pile of Snuggybear at PvP and the best """assassin""" builds for killing other players are 25 levels of something else with mandatory 5 level handicap of being forced to take a class that, at best, serves as a UMD dump and some sneak attack. Aside from that, assassin RP is extremely difficult to make fun for everyone involved to the point where it probably just shouldn't be a thing. The setup RP is either a box checking exercise followed by a boring no-RP gank from stealth or you have to put a LOT of trust in your target's hands, so much that you'll often end up just crying into a pillow all night when that trust is violated because a thing you worked so hard on for months has been carelessly smashed so that someone's toon can wave its e-peen around on you for a few minutes.

If you want to make a character that can murder other players in a face to face brawl that everyone can see what's going on and its a big public display for the server to enjoy as an event: play a wizard.

If you want to play as the misbegotten love child of Sanic the Hegehog and Shedinja who gets four really powerful spells and a crazy damage boost on 2 minute cooldowns: play an assassin.

Also, every poison that doesn't blind or stun on initial impact is shit and those are only moderately viable because you are hoping your target rolls a 1 on their embarrassingly low DC.

And just one more thing on Death Attack. It's just bad. Not even in the "this isn't very useful" bad, but in the "this is probably not a fun thing for the server in general" bad. Just because Arelith is a server that caps at level 30 and the inherent 3e D&D problems it inherits from that (compounded with the absolutely silly state of gear on Arelith) it is all too common for some characters to have fortitude saves that are 20 (or 25, or even in some odd cases 30!) points higher than other max level characters. How are you supposed to balance an ability (any ability really) that is effectively "save or die" with a DC when saving throws have ranges that wide? It's either totally ineffective because you will never ever get the target to fail unless they roll a 1 or it's a guaranteed no-chance-no-fun kill unless they roll a 20. Actually, because -pray exists its not even that. Even if you do manage to luckily paralyze someone with Death Attack they can always pray out of it so why is it even there? -Pray as a mechanic means you can only die to CC effects if you choose to unless those CC effects come from a wizard because they are Time Stop or Hideous Laughter or one of the many forms of magical knockdown (another reason Wizards make far better killers than assassins, one of many many reasons). If you want make Death Attack useful for killing players without affecting its PvE use, just make it straight up kill instead of paralyze. Fail your death save and straight to the shadow realm you go, Freedom of Movement be damned (though Death Ward should prevent it, obvs). This likely isn't something any of the devs would be interested in (and I would agree it's not what should be done!) because its uninteractive and not fun and encourages exactly the sort of PvP that Assassins thematically should be engaging in but which do not have a place in a quasi-social server like Arelith as they do not further a story, they only end it, not with a bang but with a thud.

</rant>
Chasugana: [Xanalress]: *she takes a sip, thinking it over for a time and staring at the wall* Do you think I am honest?
Rauvlin Xun'viir: [Xanalress]: *she chuckles* Chasu, thou art an assassin, a spy, and a drow.

Sea Shanties
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Re: Assassin Feedback Request

Post by Sea Shanties » Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:15 am

Death attack has the same problem as a lot of disabling spells and effects in NWN. When it works it lasts way too long (a turn a level!) so there's no way it can be made more effective unless that duration is drastically reduced.

It should really have a good chance of working but only freeze the target for a single round.

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Durvayas
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Re: Assassin Feedback Request

Post by Durvayas » Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:35 am

n00bdragon wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:02 am
Durvayas wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:38 am
The only thing that makes it materially different than rogue and ranger is it can endlessly remain scry-proof, and constantly under either ghostly or etherial visage as long as it wants.
Ghostly and Ethereal Visage do not block scrying. Assassins have ways to do this but that isn't it.
I agree wholeheartedly with your rant, but when I said scry-proof, I meant the permanent concealment from continuous cooldown casts of improved invisibility. They also happen to be able to keep a visage up permanently.
Plays: Durvayas(deleted), Marco(deleted), Hounynrae(NPC), Sinithra Auvry'ndal(rolled), Rauvlin Barrith(Active), Madeline Clavelle(Shelved)

malcolm_mountainslayer
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Re: Assassin Feedback Request

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:44 am

Durvayas wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:38 am
Its great at PvE.

It is generally fairly meh at PvP.

Some people play assassin for the RP. A lot of them, unfortunately, seem to play it for the looser PvP rules. The vetting process leaves something to be desired. People want to detach assassin tokens from the class because the class is fairly lackluster in PvP, due to death attack being a steaming pile of shit. PvP centric people want to play assassins without having to actually play assassins.

I think detaching the guild from the class is an awful mistake, and you'll probably see more cheese down the line with assassin tokens on pure wizards or 20/7/3 WMs.

The only thing that makes it materially different than rogue and ranger is it can endlessly remain scry-proof, and constantly under either ghostly or etherial visage as long as it wants.

I don't recommend it to newbs. I do recommend it to people who want to actually do assassin training/mentorship RP.

Overall, the class is fairly well balanced. I think poisons are still awful, and could use another look, since only two are considered remotely viable, and the guild itself needs a total overhaul, to attract RP to it (right now, its basically a motel), but the class is fairly fine at this point.

If anything, I'd suggest giving it a free weapon focus in dagger, for the sake of theme.
I actaully want to play an assassin class wise and rp wise but avoid anything that requires special approval like the black plague

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Dreams
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Re: Assassin Feedback Request

Post by Dreams » Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:48 am

I think that separating Assassin from the local Arelith Assassin Guild is a great idea.

For the DMs: It gives them a chance to watch a player and get an idea of their RP as they go about their gaming.

For the players: You get to enjoy the class/features and go through the process of learning to be an assassin. There can be more RP built around this, both in the process leading up to joining the guild and if they choose not to.

It could turn what is at the moment a 'I hope I get this approval right now otherwise my whole idea for this character is ruined and I might as well roll' into a more fluid and interactive experience. (Same goes for Harper.)

RP only starts at 30 if you're a coward.


Sea Shanties
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Re: Assassin Feedback Request

Post by Sea Shanties » Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:24 am

It could turn what is at the moment a 'I hope I get this approval right now otherwise my whole idea for this character is ruined and I might as well roll' into a more fluid and interactive experience. (Same goes for Harper.)
Though, assassin prereqs are just 8 ranks in hide and MS and evil alignment. If your character is turned down they can go on and be a rogue who kills people for money and have pretty close to the same concept. A harper who's turned down had to take two otherwise useless feats and put skills in things like persuade they probably won't otherwise use.

I don't think too many are turned down for the assassin token anyway, they just want to see you know the rules more than anything. Having a lot of PVP complaints against you in the past would be the big red flag, I would guess.

I'd like to see the guild opened up too.. I don't know if clerics and wizards should be able to fulfill contracts necessarily but maybe there could be other roles or something to encourage working with assassins.. I like the idea of the Assassin's guild as anti-harpers who also focus on things like information gathering and infiltration.

malcolm_mountainslayer
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Re: Assassin Feedback Request

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Sat Sep 21, 2019 5:40 pm

Sea Shanties wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:24 am
It could turn what is at the moment a 'I hope I get this approval right now otherwise my whole idea for this character is ruined and I might as well roll' into a more fluid and interactive experience. (Same goes for Harper.)
Though, assassin prereqs are just 8 ranks in hide and MS and evil alignment. If your character is turned down they can go on and be a rogue who kills people for money and have pretty close to the same concept. A harper who's turned down had to take two otherwise useless feats and put skills in things like persuade they probably won't otherwise use.

I don't think too many are turned down for the assassin token anyway, they just want to see you know the rules more than anything. Having a lot of PVP complaints against you in the past would be the big red flag, I would guess.

I'd like to see the guild opened up too.. I don't know if clerics and wizards should be able to fulfill contracts necessarily but maybe there could be other roles or something to encourage working with assassins.. I like the idea of the Assassin's guild as anti-harpers who also focus on things like information gathering and infiltration.
I hear more cases of limbo applications than straight up rejection

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Aren
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Re: Assassin Feedback Request

Post by Aren » Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:44 am

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 5:40 pm
I hear more cases of limbo applications than straight up rejection
Yup.

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