Monk Changes

[RedGiant]

I don't know what I expected, but it wasn't this.

This is painful and ham-fisted. What does the class even do at the moment? The update thread seems to riff off the last update, but it is seriously confusing as to what the ground truth is at the moment. I really don't feel like experimenting on a mandatory relevel. How does the mandatory relevel even work? Do I have to relevel my character who is now epic and had only 4 monk levels to start? Is the custom spell-resistance lowered by breaches now? Why would any one bother to go pure?

Also, where we had a bouquet of thematically appropriate weapon choices, now we're back to the same old same, because hand sickles are greaat.

In addition, this is a big kick in the pants to those of us that delevelled to drop things like ki-strike, which were granted for free, and now are not. Went from epics, back to nothing, and made it back to 18. I prefer vanilla nwn to all this tweaking.

[TimeAdept]

every change needed to happen, sorry

[Orian_666]

I think both the first very OP changes and these recent changes were steps in the right direction, but both were just steps a bit too far in either direction.
The first change was simply too much, all those free feats, especially EDodge and Blinding Speed, completely unnecessary and just didn't make any sense, and there was just too much room to make something that was far too overpowered.

Now though... things were dialed back the right way, I feel, but just by a little too much. Cross class potential for monks is fairly solid now. There's going to be some nice builds in the coming days, nothing to challenge the returning champion WM cookie cutter build but certainly far better than vanilla monks.

Pure monks though... they're extremely lacking once more, there's very little reason to go pure because the benefits are simply far outweighed by the benefits of a fairly substantial cross class dip... both cross classing and pure classing should be a viable option and I fear that just a little too much was stripped away from the pure class monk and it's now considerably inferior to the potential for cross classed monks. It's still better than a vanilla monk, that much is certain, but just dialed back a little too much and now no longer a challenger among even the lowest of the current top tier classes/builds.

[JubJub]

I know the devs work hard, but this seems to be a common issue where it Just seems like changes aren't always well thought out. I mean the monk change was just insane with all the feats but some like club was just odd. Now to counter the out of whack monk change before ,which was clearly way too much, now it seems to of gone in the opposite way and suddenly they lose Sr all the feats, and making monk once again a class where no real reason to veer consider a pure monk. There is just too much tweaking that seems to go all over the place for classes.

[Xerah]

I can assure you there was a lot of discussions and back and forth on every single addition and subtraction.

[Orian_666]

I have no doubt about that.
Just giving my two cents.
Cross class monks are going to be in a perfectly fine spot right now (imo)
But pure class monks are completely pointless now by comparison (imo)

I say all this even though i'm keeping my monk as pure class, but I generally prefer to build for RP rather than mechanical strength, and it's certainly leaps and bounds better than a vanilla pure monk (by Arelith standards at least), but it still just feels like it's lacking something.

[Aila]

I'm just sad that pure monk is not worth taking any more.

[Twily]

I'm also not fond of this change

Monks needed a nerf, I won't even try to deny it.

What I liked most about the original changes was that it enabled a less 'cookie cutter' monk; new monk styles and origins could be explored without being crippled for it.

The nerf as it stands forces monks straight back to being cookie cutter, and are even to the extent that I'm sure some would consider the original 20monk/5SD/5Rogue or Fighter to be significantly better(seeing as that build gets HIPS, epic dodge, UMD or WepSpec, etc).
As is after these changes, to not be an unarmed monk you have to spend an extra feat for less damage(this is mathematically provable, I've messed with monk DPS charts many times) and in many cases also a less effective damage type(further lowering dps).

I am glad that there's a rebuild at least, but I really would have preferred to see the variety that the original changes enabled persist through the nerfs.
Personally I think the monk gear should have been the first thing pulled, seeing as that alone puts my monk above the stats of my monk who had a 4AC/4Wis artifact in the past.

Edit: I echo Cortex's statement below of

While we're back to builds similar to the ones pre-buff, it also has a greater pool of different builds to pick from(that aren't simply enabled by virtue of the class being unrealistically overpowered), I do not think it is the ideal spot yet but it's worth waiting and observing. I absolutely adore the work being put into monk by everyone involved (then and now), and this is most certainly a step in the right direction for future tweaks and changes.

I do see potential in these nerfs, but only if continued observation and changes based on those are planned.

[Cortex]

I'll be one the first to jump in defense of the nerfs.

There was no realistic "bouquet of thematically appropriate weapons" when katana was vastly superior after they were for some reason given flurry of blows. You could use fists and kamas and still be great but that's because monk as a whole was busted. Now kama and unarmed both have their niches back.

SR also absolutely had to go if monk was to be tweaked and made better in other areas. Any SR past 32 is massive, especially when it was unbreachable, to my understanding now it is also breachable. A level CL 27 caster would have 25% ish of failure against 32 SR, going up by 10% increments per ESR feat, which is a huge deal when every spell matters in PvP. And let's not get started on the PvE side of things, monks were pretty much immune to PvE spellcasters, I know it, I played one to 30.

While we're back to builds similar to the ones pre-buff, it also has a greater pool of different builds to pick from(that aren't simply enabled by virtue of the class being unrealistically overpowered), I do not think it is the ideal spot yet but it's worth waiting and observing. I absolutely adore the work being put into monk by everyone involved (then and now), and this is most certainly a step in the right direction for future tweaks and changes.

[Xerah]

What I liked most about the original changes was that it enabled a less 'cookie cutter' monk; new monk styles and origins could be explored without being crippled for it.

Of course it did. When you get all the defensive feats and offensive feats for free you ever need then numerous things are opened up to do whatever you want. I'm not sure how you can see that any other way. Now there are options to go in different directions.

What are people really unhappy with losing here? The monk speed and unbreachable SR are non-discussion starters because they are so far out of balance that you cannot provide a reasonable discussion that can make a valid point.

[Hunter548]

monks should have been nerfed harder

[RedGiant]

The loss of a genuine, thematically appropriate single-wield choice is lamentable. I do applaud something being done for fists, but I worry we will now mostly see the same old kama or punchy monk.

As Orion has pointed out, there were a hundred different ways to tone it down without another near-complete rework. Take away epic dodge and/or blinding speed (which was really fine I think). Take away the katana's ability to flurry. Take away the free epic weapon feats. Take away the free ki-strike damage for weapons. Anyone or all of these would have been fine.

Speed is gone. Spell resistance is also now gone. Despite what people say, monks generally have crappy HP and crappy fort saves, especially on almost all the "optimal" 14 con builds.

I didn't mind having another high-end melee contender. I also didn't mind the idea of it being somewhat dialed back. But in the current state, I'm not really sure what their role is besides cross-class tweakers.


I would also love to have the answer to all of the above questions about basic functionality before leaping into an ill-advised relevelling effort.

[Orian_666]

What are people really unhappy with losing here?

Honestly i'm mostly with you and Cortex on the matter.

The SR, defensive feats and (most) of the offensive feats, as well as the original speed. All of them were simply too much.
But if I were to answer your question it would simply be that pure monk now is entirely pointless. I can see that efforts were made to make them viable but by comparison there's simply very little, or absolutely, no reason to take a pure monk over a cross classed monk with dips into Fighter/Rogue/SD/COT etc etc

The intention with these most recent changes were clearly meant to allow Pure Monks to be the shining beacon of unarmed combat, reading the notes that's evident to anyone, but ultimately when it comes to mechanics and balance even with the benefits a pure monk gets over, say, a 20/5/5 the 20/5/5 is still going to outperform the pure monk at every corner.

If I were to suggest a "fix" for this it'd be really very simple; Grant Imp Ki Strike to pure monks at later levels. 26 and 28, or even 29 and 30. They're not going to be crit happy and absolutely melt anyone regardless of DR so there's nothing to worry about there, but at the same time it's just a nice little cookie that would at least make me think "you know what, might not be the worst idea to go pure monk now." and also really cement the move toward pure monk being the master of the unarmed that it appears was the intention.

It'd literally only add some DR penetration and 4 damage, as per the recent change to it, but I honestly can't see anyone making a move toward 21 base Wisdom on a pure monk just to get the Imp Ki Strike benefits and gimping their AB when it's already going to be just barely scraping the heels of other comparable melee builds.

Like Cortex said, both changes were steps in the right direction, the first change went a good bit too far into the OP direction, and this one is much closer to a nice balanced middle ground but it's just a few steps too far back into the "It's good, but compared to these top 10 builds it's just barely a competitor." Ultimately it's absolutely getting there!! Just needs that little "something" to really cement it as a viable class both pure and cross and something that'd be fun but also mechanically able to stand up there with the big boys, even if just barely.

[Cortex]

With enough gearing, a monk can get high 30s fortitude and 500 HP.

[Peppermint]

I don't understand the obsession with pure class characters. There's nothing better "roleplay-wise" about them. Heck, nearly every character in D&D literature is multiclassed to represent the variety of skills and vocations they picked up along the way (as is natural for an adventurer). Pure class mentality seems like a holdover from AD&D, where many characters were pure simply because the system was too archaic to allow any kind of modularity.

But guys. Look. We're playing a game based on D&D 3.0. AD&D ended nineteen years ago. The bombs have already dropped. The long war is over. It's time to move on. Please! Open your eyes and take those first steps. Explore the vast wasteland of games invented after the year 1999. You'll thank yourself. I promise you.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I think we need to let go of the adage that all classes should equally be able to go "pure."

This has hardly ever been the case, in PnP or otherwise. Multiclassing is fundamental to the very essence of character creation in NWN and beyond. And I don't think it's appropriate to always consider the pure-option when coming to mechanically balancing.

edit: eyo Peppermint wow the timing

[Orian_666]

It's not an obsession, it'd just be nice if it were a viable option along with the cross classing. There's no reason why the only optimal option should be to cross class.
Those responses also don't address the issue. "Just don't go pure class then!!" Well, it's an RP server and I want to, why shouldn't I ask for it to also be a bit more mechanically viable!!

[Twily]

To elaborate Xerah:

The last monk changes was clearly trying to make more than unarmed viable for majority monk characters.
They wouldn't have been giving feats for all sorts of weapons if they weren't trying to do that.

The current monk changes focus heavily on unarmed.
The gap between unarmed and weapons now, is even larger than it already is in vanilla NWN.


I wasn't after the power of monks, I've been playing monks for years before the first changes ever came out. I even had a rapier weilding kensai monk I got all the way to L30 before any changes were ever made(it was horrible, even if it was as unkillable as any kensai monk was).

The concept of a monk that wields a sword is one that appeals to me, and has appealed to many players over the years of Arelith. Every player who had a character with both 20 monk levels and a sword was massively shooting themselves in the foot, as it's a completely unsupported playstyle.
That is what I liked about the monk changes, it made it a supported playstyle.
I'm not saying I think sword wielding monks didn't needed a nerf, because they did, I'm just sad that all the support for a weapon wielding monk was removed. Almost all of the current bonuses apply strictly to unarmed, which has always been and still is the best option.

[Xerah]

They are a choice. You still get katana with your monk weapon proficiency. They are not ideal 100% optimal, but you can make yourself a 20/7/3 monk/WM/rogue or a 20/5/5 monk/WM/fighter if you want. There are ways to do the thing, it is just that it is no longer, by far, the best on the server.

[RedGiant]

I don't understand the obsession with pure class characters....Pure class mentality seems like a holdover from AD&D, where many characters were pure simply because the system was too archaic to allow any kind of modularity.

Ah, Peppermint, my old forums nemesis and the ying to my yang on almost every single balance issue two people could have. I respectfully believe you mask preference as rationale. You seem to argue for build-diversity which is /exactly/ why pure classing needs to be viable with solid enough benefits to make that happen. This actually increases overall build diversity, because if you take pure classing off the table, that's one less viable build.

They are a choice. You still get katana with your monk weapon proficiency. They are not ideal 100% optimal, but you can make yourself a 20/7/3 monk/WM/rogue or a 20/5/5 monk/WM/fighter if you want. There are ways to do the thing, it is just that it is no longer, by far, the best on the server.

Best on the server likely was and now definitely still is the forbidden meme quarterstaff wielder (at least in punishing DPS). Couldn't katana issues have been solved by removing flurry, free feats, and free ki-strike damage bonuses?

Also, I keep ringing the gong about this, but with a core class update like this, could we get a solid wiki update as well? Still not touching mine out of fear...

[Aila]

I don't mind the changes.

I'm just having a hard time coming up with a pure monk build that can compete.

My RP belief with Monks is that they should never cross class.

[Scurvy Cur]

I'm just sad that pure monk is not worth taking any more.

Good, tbh. I'm really glad for this fact.

[Scurvy Cur]

I don't know what I expected, but it wasn't this.

This is painful and ham-fisted. What does the class even do at the moment? The update thread seems to riff off the last update, but it is seriously confusing as to what the ground truth is at the moment. I really don't feel like experimenting on a mandatory relevel. How does the mandatory relevel even work? Do I have to relevel my character who is now epic and had only 4 monk levels to start? Is the custom spell-resistance lowered by breaches now? Why would any one bother to go pure?

Also, where we had a bouquet of thematically appropriate weapon choices, now we're back to the same old same, because hand sickles are greaat.

In addition, this is a big kick in the pants to those of us that delevelled to drop things like ki-strike, which were granted for free, and now are not. Went from epics, back to nothing, and made it back to 18. I prefer vanilla nwn to all this tweaking.

They were not any more ham-fisted *ba dum tish* than the buffs, tbhqh. The buffs should never have happened the way they did, and basically everyone knows it at this point. A full reversion of everything except the removal of the monk speed feat that broke the 150% base ms cap would have been fully justified after what the server has collectively gone through the last few months.

Instead, monks have retained many of the original buffs, and ought count themselves quite fortunate. They are now somewhat mortal, and I'm puzzled why anyone is upset at this.

[Scurvy Cur]

I don't understand the obsession with pure class characters....Pure class mentality seems like a holdover from AD&D, where many characters were pure simply because the system was too archaic to allow any kind of modularity.

Ah, Peppermint, my old forums nemesis and the ying to my yang... [clipped words here]

What a strange way to say "the man who tells me I'm wrong when I am".

[Peppermint]

Ah, Peppermint, my old forums nemesis and the ying to my yang on almost every single balance issue two people could have. I respectfully believe you mask preference as rationale. You seem to argue for build-diversity which is /exactly/ why pure classing needs to be viable with solid enough benefits to make that happen. This actually increases overall build diversity, because if you take pure classing off the table, that's one less viable build.

I've never given enough thought to anyone here to consider them a rival, but okay. I'm just here to express my views.

Before this update, traditional monks went Monk (30). Now traditional monks multiclass.

You could multiclass a traditional monk before, and that was fine, but suboptimal. You can pure class a traditional monk now, and that's fine, but suboptimal.

Nothing has changed here except for a shift from pure class to multiclass design. Would it be neat to have pure class and multiclass monks as viable options? Sure, I'm okay with that. But characterizing this update as a reduction in build versatility* strikes me as disingenuous at best.

(* Barring the loss of katanas, but we all agree that had to go.)