Monk Changes

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

The only change to club was removing the free feats.

Katana was the only one that was removed as a monk weapon.

With katanas not being monkable, will they still be -two handed potential finesse weapon? (Which is kind of cool even if it is ineffecient) and will small creatures ever get that -twohand command?

[Dr. B]

Ah, Peppermint, my old forums nemesis and the ying to my yang

Come on man. It's yin, not ying. I thought you played a monk.

[The1Kobra]

I will say, that monks definitely needed a nerf, they got way too many free goodies that made them better front liners than other fighter types while still getting oodles of other bonuses. No other class got so many free feats and the speed.

That said, I don't think the SR nerf was needed. It was a niche that only mostly pure monks had. Now it's almost pointless to invest in more than 21 monk levels. Even a heavy investiture in epic SR feats now does nothing because it caps at 32 regardless, making that build path entirely pointless. Without the other bonuses, it's not like monks are OP mage killers either. They have to sacrifice AB/AC other fun stuff to get that heavy SR. That and mages/clerics/druids have plenty of other ways to deal with foes with SR, at that.

Change was needed, but I think the nerf might have been a little excessive.

Edit to add: I understand why katana was removed as a monk weapon, but honestly Quarterstaff is the OP one, since it gets +2 AB for being a twohander. None of the others do.

[Cortex]

Epic SR feats make it go past 32 (which is already very high).

[The1Kobra]

Ah, I wasn't aware it went over.

If it does, then that opens up more build options. I'd have to do some build calculations, but 32 SR definitely isn't great. It would have to be padded with some epic feats to be effective against level appropriate content, and even then, that comes at the cost of other things monks need as well.

[Cortex]

25% of blocking a spell cast by a 27 CL caster is undoubtedly great, there's no way of spinning it otherwise. If you're built well and with saves, that means you're effectively tanking 25% of the mage's IGMS DPS. And again, if you're built well, you'll have low 500HP or at the very least high 400, so you're not squishy by any means.

[The1Kobra]

Isn't the new SR also reduceable with mords/breach? That means monks are taking a -10 right there if they're hit with it, which means they won't block it. Or -3 or -5, if a breach is used.
The chance is also reduced if they invest in spell penetration. 2 Spell Penetration feats on a splash mage means they'll get through 32 SR every time.

[Cortex]

The SR debuff can be restored I think lesser restoration, if not that normal restoration will do. And you have more restorations than they have mords.

[RedGiant]

In response to the earlier question about documentation and clarity.

Upon release it was not at all clear how SR worked and if it was made breachable. (Turns out it is breachable, which is a hard nerf NOT mentioned in the release notes.)

Also it was not clear if the SR feats added to the total possible, because the language of "cap" implies a ceiling. (Apparently they do exceed the cap?)

It was also not clear in the notes how Katana is and is not a monk weapon. (Apparently it is given to monks as a proficiency, but functions for them about as well as the handaxe.)

The fate of the ki-strikes was similarly unclear, since they were not mentioned at all as being removed, only in context of being changed to work solely with fists. (Surprise! They were removed.)

Etc. Etc.

You might have assumed this information correctly, but without a clear changelog, the rest of us had to piece together what stays and what goes from the previous version (surprise, clubs stay!) and guess the implications of other changes (breachable SR).

Thus, when logging into a surprise relevel (and I am a totally a fan of relevels, just sans the surprise part) you are perfectly primed to make poor decisions.

[RedGiant]

Re: Cortex

Even if you can restore SR breach with a scroll, good luck on getting to use it. Timestop.

This change fundamentally renegotiates the anti-caster roll of the monk.

Moreover, who will actually bother with the feats to make it worthwhile, over the still absolutely required epic weapon focus and epic skill focus disciple?

I wouldn't have minded renegotiating the SR numbers OR making it breachable in some counterplay scenario, but making it BOTH breachable and cap out near where the spell version does (at the expense of totally breaking your character)...

...this is a hard over-correction that needs looked at now or in the future when cooler heads prevail.

Also, everyone seems to act like there was no magical counterplay to high SR. There has always been reflexive damage, high end summons, epic spells, and a suite of Arelith spells and effects that simply bypass SR.

[Cortex]

If you are breached and a time stop immediately follows, you can safely pray out of it if you fall too low, you should have 480-500s HP too. Besides, you can use a wand of restoration for immediate effect if you see it coming.

Those "counters" to high SR are also by far and large invalid, there's no summon a monk cannot handle or just evade, epic spells didn't do nearly enough damage to kill them, or damaging spells that would be remotely worthwhile.

But none of that is news.

[Might-N-Magic]

The only thing that I care about and want is my proper Monk Speed back. I'm sick of losing it if I do anything and the only way to get it back is to freaking log off/on or rest... Only to lose it 3 seconds later when I change a piece of gear or use Haste.

GRRRR!

[Hunter548]

Re: Cortex

Even if you can restore SR breach with a scroll, good luck on getting to use it. Timestop.

If your monk dies entirely (100% hp - 0) in a timestop, it's because you either have made a mistake in play (You didn't pray) or you have made a mistake with your gear/stats (Not having con). If you go from 100% hp to 0 in a timestop to a mage, it's because you messed up somewhere. Full stop, you are at fault. A pure monk with no toughness and only a six con modifier after gear (Whether that be 10 base con and a full +12, or some other combination of base con and gear) has enough HP to survive a timestop nuke at full health.

This change fundamentally renegotiates the anti-caster roll of the monk.

Moreover, who will actually bother with the feats to make it worthwhile, over the still absolutely required epic weapon focus and epic skill focus disciple?

I wouldn't have minded renegotiating the SR numbers OR making it breachable in some counterplay scenario, but making it BOTH breachable and cap out near where the spell version does (at the expense of totally breaking your character)...

...this is a hard over-correction that needs looked at now or in the future when cooler heads prevail.

They'll probably bother with them because they get more than two epic feats, and two feats plus 22 monk levels gives them 36, which is (prior to a breach) a 50% chance at ignoring any spell cast at you. That's not nothing, especially combined with monk's strong saves. Combine with lots of attacks that can stun or kill on a fort save, ignoring spellcraft (A mage's weakest base save, and ignoring the biggest boost to their saves) and monks are still in a good place vs casters.

Also, everyone seems to act like there was no magical counterplay to high SR. There has always been reflexive damage, high end summons, epic spells, and a suite of Arelith spells and effects that simply bypass SR.

This is so stunningly wrong and ignorant words almost fail me.

1) Reflexive damage (Damage shields) rely on the monk being an inept moron - It won't happen to anyone not playing with their feet. The monk has to make a choice to beat himself to death on the mage. That may happen frequently in your experience, but it is entirely the monk's choice to die in that way.

2) High End Summons can't hit monks, any more than high end meleers can (Unless, of course, the monk is inept). Necromancy summons top out at ~40 ab. Elementals at less. Dragon Knights top out at 41-42, with the exception of the Dracolich who can hit 48 when buffed. None of those are high enough to really apply pressure to a monk who should be ignoring that the summon exists while he shoves the summoner's head up his own anus.

3) The two offensive epic spells that exist in NWN do, on average, a combined ~280 damage. A pure monk has, with no con modifier, 240 HP. In other words, if said pure monk (who hasn't bothered to gear his con or take more than 10 con) drinks an endurance potion, he has a 50% chance to get 60 HP and be able to survive both epic spells with no healing. Or, in other words, if your monk dies to getting hit by both epic spells it's because you have made a decision, consciously or not, to die to them.

4) I suspect you're not aware of this, but the spells that ignore SR largely are cloud/field spells. Evards, Incindiary Cloud, Grease, Web, Acid Fog, etc. Grease and Web do no damage. Acid Fog does incredibly minimal damage per round. Any monk with 20 monk levels is immune to the damage component of Evards. Incindiary Cloud has a reflex save attached to it, and monks automatically get improved evasion - meaning if, by some RNG act of god, your monk fails more than a save or two, he's certainly not in any real danger unless he goes to sleep in the incendiary cloud, since he only takes half damage.


People aren't exaggerating when they say that pre-nerf monks were basically immune to casters.

[Peppermint]

I hate when people spread misinformation. So here goes:

(1)

Upon release it was not at all clear how SR worked and if it was made breachable. (Turns out it is breachable, which is a hard nerf NOT mentioned in the release notes.)

Relevant clause:

- Diamond Soul feat removed. Instead, monks gain a scripted Spell Resistance effect starting at level 12. This Spell Resistance is equal to 10 + 1 per Class Level, capping at +32 at 22 Class Levels.

All scripted spell resistance feats are breachable. That's common knowledge; it's just how the game works. Diamond Soul's handling of spell resistance is unique.

(2)

Also it was not clear if the SR feats added to the total possible, because the language of "cap" implies a ceiling. (Apparently they do exceed the cap?)

Relevant clauses:

- Diamond Soul feat removed. Instead, monks gain a scripted Spell Resistance effect starting at level 12. This Spell Resistance is equal to 10 + 1 per Class Level, capping at +32 at 22 Class Levels.

- Each Epic Spell Resistance feat adds +2 to the scripted Spell Resistance effect. The requirement for Epic Spell Resistance has been changed to Monk level 12, rather than the Diamond Soul feat.

Yes, the ceiling in this case is when monk levels stop applying to your spell resistance total. It was obvious to me that the spell resistance exceeds the cap. But let's pretend it's not. Let's say I read it differently and instead do some math to test that interpretation.

You're playing a monk build. You're level 21. You now have 31 spell resistance and can take an improved spell resistance feat. That would push you up to 33 spell resistance. Does it really make any sense whatsoever, in this context, that spell resistance would actually be capped at 32?

Of course not.

(3)

It was also not clear in the notes how Katana is and is not a monk weapon. (Apparently it is given to monks as a proficiency, but functions for them about as well as the handaxe.)

Relevant clause:

- Monks do not suffer -4 to AB when equipping katana
----Katana changed to allow WF/ImpCrit with monk proficiency
----Katana removed as a monk weapons (i.e. no flurry or monk extra attack)

It's all stated explicitly right here.

(4)

The fate of the ki-strikes was similarly unclear, since they were not mentioned at all as being removed, only in context of being changed to work solely with fists. (Surprise! They were removed.)

Relevant clause:

DAMAGE & AB Bonuses to fists
LEVEL 10 --> AB = 0; Damage = 1
LEVEL 13 --> AB = 1; Damage = 1
LEVEL 16 --> AB = 1; Damage = 2
LEVEL 18 --> AB = 2; Damage = 2
LEVEL 20 --> AB = 2; Damage = 3
LEVEL 24 --> AB = 3; Damage = 3
LEVEL 28 --> AB = 5; Damage = 6

In addition, applied only to fists:
Ki Strike +4 = +2 damage
Ki Strike +5 = +2 damage

Look at the damage and AB progression. Pre-epic progression lines up with the acquisition of ki strike feats. If Ki Strike +4 and Ki Strike +5 were granted for free, there would be no reason to list the feats separately, and the chart would instead look like this:

DAMAGE & AB Bonuses to fists
LEVEL 10 --> AB = 0; Damage = 1
LEVEL 13 --> AB = 1; Damage = 1
LEVEL 16 --> AB = 1; Damage = 2
LEVEL 18 --> AB = 2; Damage = 4
LEVEL 20 --> AB = 2; Damage = 7
LEVEL 24 --> AB = 3; Damage = 7
LEVEL 28 --> AB = 5; Damage = 10

Ergo, logically, it's impossible that you get those feats for free.

. . .

There are no "surprises" here. Only a failure to comprehend.

[Nitro]

Man, I'd like to see an example of any MMO where a 5% chance to just ignore any spell isn't a mandatory must-have talent, let alone the 25% monks get for free on Arelith.

[RedGiant]

Without impugning your collective intelligence, as I can't help but feel was done to me...

Hunter:
"This is so stunningly wrong and ignorant words almost fail me."

Reflexive damage: PMs with Death Armor, Druid with Monolith Shape, even a Barbarian raging with a death armor pot (or and item-based elemental shield, or a scroll of Mestil's acid sheath, etc.)...all are significant ways in which monks can take damage from spells or spell-like abilities. Here the classes are built to take the punishment and the many attacks of the monk actually somewhat work against them. Will the monk continue until they beat themselves to death? Probably not. But while they stop to heal, the undead horde/elemental swarm/angry barbarian will be swinging. What about switching to ranged? Good luck picking the well-played PM off with your shuriken for the win. Granted, many times the monk will just execute a forced withdrawal, but this is a perfectly valid counter play which makes use of magic.

...and really I could go on through the categories (e.g., the important and overlooked BBoD summons), but my point was that magical options exist to thwart the lethality of monk, even when they have unbreachable SR. Going to ground (HiPS on Shadowmage, G'Sanc/Stealth on 27/3) and offering the monk a stream of BBoDs will often net you the same result as above.

"I suspect you're not aware..."

I'm aware, and, in fact, was referencing the cloud spells. I'm not sure why you didn't mention that Acid Fog not only has no spell resistance check, but also has a no-save 75% movement speed reduction. I think this would be important to mention, especially given its role in slowing down withdrawing or repositioning monks.

I'm also not sure how 36 SR allows you to ignore 50% of the spells cast at you. This is certainly not the case against your standard lvl 30 Druid, nor even the fairly standard lvl 30 Wild Mage (at least the ones who care about -fate). I imagine you have a specific example in mind here?

Again, my point wasn't to say that SR didn't need some sort of renegotiation, because it did, but I believe either leaving the numbers high but breachable or setting a lower cap but leaving it unbreachable would be a better solution than what we have now.

-----------------------

Peppermint:
"I hate when people spread misinformation."

...

1) You should not need a knowledge of scripting to interpret the update thread. I think this should be rather obvious.

2) One could easily interpret the cap as hard from what was written. There are any number of scenarios on monk builds, using levels 12-20, where you might want to throw in spell resistance feats to hit the cap, if the cap indeed were hard. It wasn't and I'm glad about that, but the details here were not explicit, rather they had to be inferred.

3) The katana verbage was similarly obtuse. Are monks granted the katana proficiency or are you literally just removing the -4 penalty for equipping the weapon? If it is the latter, this is a very strange implementation considering we are able to give Dwarves the Dwarven Waraxe proficiency with the new hak package. Why does this even matter? Well, for one, there is the issue that you cannot cast spells from weapons you do not have a proficiency in. There are several katanas in the game that hold bound spells. All of this may factor into whether a player wants to ditch or keep their katana focus. The specifics on how this is implemented, then, is relevant and monk players really needs to know them before they log into a forced relevel.

Moreover, the language here doesn't necessarily use community standards, even in the parts that I did interpret correctly. E.g., the update says "no...monk extra attack," when what we mean to say is, "katana no longer follows the monk UBAB."

4) Here, we have already established that update verbage is obtuse. I personally haven't touched any of my monks, because I wanted specificity before going forward. I know of at least one player whose relevel was partially botched by a misunderstanding on this point. Players should not have to infer +4 and +5 ki-strike was removed, it should say so clearly, like it did for the blinding speed and epic dodge feats.

"There are no "surprises" here. Only a failure to comprehend."

This is pedantic and condescending. This sort of sentiment only creates a toxic environment and drives players from the community. People see things from different perspectives and process information in wildly different ways.

Lets be better than this.

[Xerah]

Honestly, I expected a basic understanding of the game with my update notes. I’ll make sure I adjust it down for next time

[Ebonstar]

If you are breached and a time stop immediately follows, you can safely pray out of it if you fall too low, you should have 480-500s HP too. Besides, you can use a wand of restoration for immediate effect if you see it coming.

Those "counters" to high SR are also by far and large invalid, there's no summon a monk cannot handle or just evade, epic spells didn't do nearly enough damage to kill them, or damaging spells that would be remotely worthwhile.

But none of that is news.

did a test against a dragon, and guess what couldnt even dent it, magic missles from a mage cut you to ribbons now, if you stayed pure you dont get to use wands, your DR is cut by a bronze weapon and scroll or a plus one temp essence

there is no more handling summons, or mages or anything. this turned a maybe has a chance in pvp if it happens to you may as well just have a quickslot die to press and not waste the time. oh and even better having a 40 plus discipline doesnt even keep you on your feet anymore.

you cannot have super sr and super toughness hp boost and ewf all on the same character, because this wasnt a nerf it was a class removal like kensai path was nerfed and changed seven more times before being removed completely

Now ive said sure drop the sr from diamond soul and cap it at 32 but dont make it breachable too
edodge and blinding speed are not hard to work around, but this one above is a major one.
dont take ki feats that a master of ki would have only available if you niche build
and dont assume something on a spreadsheet that looks good on paper actually works in play

[Ebonstar]

Honestly, I expected a basic understanding of the game with my update notes. I’ll make sure I adjust it down for next time

not everyone takes a game and a toy to break down to its atoms. i sure as hell do not.

However I would never expect such condescension from a dev team member or any team member for that matter about adjusting down update notes for the stupid, as this quote implies.

And this goes to some other players as well who constantly belittle others with "who in their right mind would ever do such and such", and yes the three main culprits who are famous for this are on this thread.

Ive been playing here a long time, and in the past six months this attitude has been rampant in both the forums and discord and I find it tiresome.

[Ork]

Hard to not be condescending in response to melodrama. Here's the brass tacks: a lot of the arguments against the nerf fail to have a deeper understanding of mechanics. Comments like "I don't really pvp" or "I play pure class for roleplay reasons" are not a defense against this nerf. To really understand why this nerf had to happen, you have to understand core mechanics of this game. Anecdotal evidence such as "I did a test against a dragon" fails to provide any evidence because no one knows your build, what dragon you fought, etc. I could roll a monk right now in PGCC, do a test against a dragon and probably get a completely different result than yours.

When you're posting an argument for or against a topic, it has to be backed by evidence. A lot of dissension concerning this nerf is based solely on how it made you feel. Be prepared to defend your case when posting feedback or otherwise. Its not condescention so much as it is fact-checking. Doesn't always feel nice when your assumptions or position is wrong. And certainly it is always and has been difficult explaining why a position is wrong when there is a lack of basic understanding of game mechanics.

[Irongron]

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=25250&p=201941#p201941

[Xerah]

Apologies for the tone taken in the previous reply. It was built up from continued frustrations (and a 2am response) and ended up lashing out at people that didn't need to get it. Sorry about that. Hopefully, thanks for understanding.

I will try to be more explicit in update notes.

[Orian_666]

Quick question!!
With the latest update are those AB bonuses with Imp Ki Strike scaling or stacking?
As in if you take both will you end up with +2 or +3 AB?

Honestly I think either is fine, and it's a really simple but nice addition that I think will give pure monks focused on Unarmed that little something I felt they were missing by comparison, just looking for clarification is all, thanks

[Hunter548]

Reflexive damage: PMs with Death Armor, Druid with Monolith Shape, even a Barbarian raging with a death armor pot (or and item-based elemental shield, or a scroll of Mestil's acid sheath, etc.)...all are significant ways in which monks can take damage from spells or spell-like abilities. Here the classes are built to take the punishment and the many attacks of the monk actually somewhat work against them. Will the monk continue until they beat themselves to death? Probably not. But while they stop to heal, the undead horde/elemental swarm/angry barbarian will be swinging. What about switching to ranged? Good luck picking the well-played PM off with your shuriken for the win. Granted, many times the monk will just execute a forced withdrawal, but this is a perfectly valid counter play which makes use of magic.

You're right about monolith druids but it bares noting that monolith druids are also direly in need of a heavy nerf. Otherwise, you missed the point entirely. Casting a damage shield doesn't pressure a monk because prior to this nerf there was no pressure on the monk. He was immune to spellcasting (barring spells that ignored sr, which I already addressed) by virtue of 46 sr, so if you cast Mestil's or Death Armor, the monk could just wait you out. Melee your summons, pull out a gonne and take potshots or just swap to shuriken (which he also gets monk APR with) and keep attacking you to keep you in combat so you can't teleport away until your damage shield wears off, at which point he starts stabbing with you katanas again.

I'm not sure why you'd mention death armor potions/Mestil's scrolls on a barbarian as a viable tactic since they both last for 18 and ~48 (?) seconds respectively and do really pitiful damage when cast via UMD like that (d4+3 and, what, d6+9? That's not really threatening), but the same idea applies if for some reason a meleer gets the idea in their head

...and really I could go on through the categories (e.g., the important and overlooked BBoD summons), but my point was that magical options exist to thwart the lethality of monk, even when they have unbreachable SR. Going to ground (HiPS on Shadowmage, G'Sanc/Stealth on 27/3) and offering the monk a stream of BBoDs will often net you the same result as above.

Yes, and the point I was making was that you are highly overestimating how effective these options are, and that they will actually have little/no effect.

BBoD doesn't have the ab to hurt monks reliably, just like all the other summons I mentioned specifically.

HIPS/Stealth are sort of options for the mage escaping, but given that monks have listen as a detect skill, high wisdom and a lot more freedom to pick up ESF, I don't know if I'd call it reliable. You'll also need to cornersneak the monk if you don't have HIPS. GSanc is really good for escaping though, assuming you haven't already cast it. Using it to throw a series of BBoDs at the monk is both futile because of the Monk's ac, and won't lastmore than 1-2 BBoDs anyways.

(BBoD is also a wizard-only tactic. No sorcerer will take BBoD because of limited spells)

"I suspect you're not aware..."

I'm aware, and, in fact, was referencing the cloud spells. I'm not sure why you didn't mention that Acid Fog not only has no spell resistance check, but also has a no-save 75% movement speed reduction. I think this would be important to mention, especially given its role in slowing down withdrawing or repositioning monks.

I didn't specifically mention Acid Fog, but it's included with the Web/Grease group I did mention. Yes, it will hinder the Monk's mobility (Assuming he isn't packing FoM potions for some reason, which are craftable now) but all that really does is let you run away from a monk. It doesn't put kill pressure on him. I can't imagine a situarion where a monk actually needs to run away from a solo mage.

I'm also not sure how 36 SR allows you to ignore 50% of the spells cast at you. This is certainly not the case against your standard lvl 30 Druid, nor even the fairly standard lvl 30 Wild Mage (at least the ones who care about -fate). I imagine you have a specific example in mind

It's not the case against 30 druid or 30 wild mage, no. It is however the case against what I'd call the "standard" build - 26-27 caster levels, then 3-4 levels of a dip (Warlocks get arouns this too, but should have a lot of trouble getting an eldritch blast to hit). Even the 30 caster builds, however, still have a 25% chance not to pierce the SR. That's still good.

[Xerah]

Quick question!!
With the latest update are those AB bonuses with Imp Ki Strike scaling or stacking?
As in if you take both will you end up with +2 or +3 AB?

Honestly I think either is fine, and it's a really simple but nice addition that I think will give pure monks focused on Unarmed that little something I felt they were missing by comparison, just looking for clarification is all, thanks

Nope, not stacking.