Monk Changes

[Scurvy Cur]

I didn't mind having another high-end melee contender. I also didn't mind the idea of it being somewhat dialed back. But in the current state, I'm not really sure what their role is besides cross-class tweakers.

Monk wasn't a "high end melee contender", it rendered obsolete basically every melee build save maybe bards:

PM? Why bother. Be even less killable with monk, better AC, edodge, permanently capped ms and SR.

Classic fighter based WM? Why bother? The monk variant, while a chore to level and gear, was functionally better than both the 2h wm and the 1h wm.

Rogue? Looked really good on paper until monk 2.0 was mentioned, and then it was just kind of a worse way to do all the same things; they both livelord, they're both oppresive af to fight. The rogue is just mortal, and occasionally dies when he makes bad mistakes.

Ranger? Niched already to archery, -guardbait dps STRangers, and dex based livelords. The two melee variants soundly eclipsed, because monk filled both the livelord dex build and the str -guardbait role way better, and with fewer weaknesses.

Barbarian? Not really meta right now because so much has eclipsed them as far as unkillable melee contenders (rogue, druid, etc.), but monk just added insult to injury there.

Now monk has been reduced to the role of "highly survivable and mobile harrasser". They have a good slew of immunities, enough SR to keep themselves safe from UMD and a lot of NPC casters, which is a big deal. They've got stealth, good AC, the ability to extend into edodge, reasonable if not stellar damage; it's like a rogue that trades DPS for survivability.

[Ebonstar]

ok i went into the build guys lounge basically got told having high wisdom for a pure monk was stupid, but im used to that in there.

they put up some multi class options, i figures lets try a basic 3 class dip for a 27/3 monk and see what we can build.

now the truly bad thing about the mandatory rebuild was yes you go back to level 1 have all your xp ready to roll to get you back and wait, gifts cant be changed, if you want to alter the path and see what really happens.

so i rebuilt, didnt take wis on the stat levels like i did when i went pure took 2 strength and five dex figure ok ill get a bit more carry capacity and boost my ac and ab up.

well that didnt happen. No ki 4 and 5 at 18 and 20 anymore so you lose your DR cutting on your hands. you lose the AB as well.

all weapon feats even for unarmed and kama gone

ac drops because im guessing dex doesnt boost it like was said. lost 2 ac by swapping 5 wis for five dex

lost 2 ab across the board for no ki bonuses as mentioned above.

so now you have nothing special unarmed attack that went down to boot.

oh and no bonus to my carry cap either, back at the same way from yesterday .

Now i can truly care less about the SR drop by 6 points. But I recall when the first threads came out months ago it was monks had speed taken away and were given things to compensate and benefits to go pure.

all benefits to compensate were taken away. speed still gone, SR cut, DR cut, AB cut, Damage cut, weapon variations cut, but we did get a 10m range whirlwind.

my hp did go up since i had that extra feat laying around. and now i can use wands and sneak attack.

But imho when you cut more than you add, or swap, that isnt balance, thats saying we dont really want you to play this class in any fashion other than a dip

put the ki 4 and 5 back at 18 and 20 if you want punchy and kama to be the main monk you see, give them the weapon specs and epic specs and focus to be the best punchy kama guys they can be not just a guy with a plant pruner or a drunken brawler.

That would at least put them at an even level

[Scurvy Cur]

I think both the first very OP changes and these recent changes were steps in the right direction, but both were just steps a bit too far in either direction.
The first change was simply too much, all those free feats, especially EDodge and Blinding Speed, completely unnecessary and just didn't make any sense, and there was just too much room to make something that was far too overpowered.

Hard disagree. If anything, the new changes didn't go far enough, though a lot of that is 100% not on Xerah (who has done hero's work here, make no mistake), since some of the things that remain busted af about monks pertain to the absolutely ridiculous itemization options they were given concurrently with the patch.

[Scurvy Cur]

ok i went into the build guys lounge basically got told having high wisdom for a pure monk was stupid, but im used to that in there.

That does tend to happen when you walk into a mechanics section, yes.

ac drops because im guessing dex doesnt boost it like was said. lost 2 ac by swapping 5 wis for five dex

Excuse me what.

Are you armored and suffering a max dex bonus to AC penalty?

[Ebonstar]

I think both the first very OP changes and these recent changes were steps in the right direction, but both were just steps a bit too far in either direction.
The first change was simply too much, all those free feats, especially EDodge and Blinding Speed, completely unnecessary and just didn't make any sense, and there was just too much room to make something that was far too overpowered.

Hard disagree. If anything, the new changes didn't go far enough, though a lot of that is 100% not on Xerah (who has done hero's work here, make no mistake), since some of the things that remain busted af about monks pertain to the absolutely ridiculous itemization options they were given concurrently with the patch.

didnt go far enough, in what regard, every benefit granted with the update was scrapped and nothing was given that even comes close to a fair swap

[Scurvy Cur]

I think both the first very OP changes and these recent changes were steps in the right direction, but both were just steps a bit too far in either direction.
The first change was simply too much, all those free feats, especially EDodge and Blinding Speed, completely unnecessary and just didn't make any sense, and there was just too much room to make something that was far too overpowered.

Hard disagree. If anything, the new changes didn't go far enough, though a lot of that is 100% not on Xerah (who has done hero's work here, make no mistake), since some of the things that remain busted af about monks pertain to the absolutely ridiculous itemization options they were given concurrently with the patch.

didnt go far enough, in what regard, every benefit granted with the update was scrapped and nothing was given that even comes close to a fair swap

When a class is busted af, you don't give a "fair swap". You take things away. And you keep taking things away until it's not busted.

Some specific areas where the team did not go far enough:

- The monk shirt needs to lose its inherent runic property, and probably have the disc bonus removed or reduced to 1. Ideally, a top tier rune would be required to improve the result.

- Aspect beads and the aspirant's sash need to be made more difficult to rune.

-Fine elven boots need to be adjusted upwards in rune difficulty as well (note, this is not a mong specific issue, but it does bear on the class)

- Total final AC on a well-built monk should drop from the 59-60 range pre expertise where it currently sits, to about 2 less than that; probably most easily accomplished by halving the AC scaling from 1 per 5 levels to 1 per 10.

- Monk appears to have retained some of its move speed advantage, which is a mistake, but probably one that was motivated by irrational sentimentality for "familiar class features".

[Peppermint]

Hard disagree. If anything, the new changes didn't go far enough, though a lot of that is 100% not on Xerah (who has done hero's work here, make no mistake), since some of the things that remain busted af about monks pertain to the absolutely ridiculous itemization options they were given concurrently with the patch.

didnt go far enough, in what regard, every benefit granted with the update was scrapped and nothing was given that even comes close to a fair swap

Hard disagree. If anything, the new changes didn't go far enough, though a lot of that is 100% not on Xerah (who has done hero's work here, make no mistake), since some of the things that remain busted af about monks pertain to the absolutely ridiculous itemization options they were given concurrently with the patch.

[Ebonstar]

ok i went into the build guys lounge basically got told having high wisdom for a pure monk was stupid, but im used to that in there.

That does tend to happen when you walk into a mechanics section, yes.

ac drops because im guessing dex doesnt boost it like was said. lost 2 ac by swapping 5 wis for five dex

Excuse me what.

Are you armored and suffering a max dex bonus to AC penalty?

no robes wraps sash and beads dex went up by 4 wis down by 6 not 5 and 5

[Dreams]

This is a very good change.

The class is well-balanced, can take a number of multiclass options (similar to before the Godmode monk changes). Compare what you have now to before the godmode monk was available, you get a whole bunch of benefits that you didn't have before.

Monk simply requires you to think a little more about what you're doing, you are no longer immortal, and now you need a bit of strategy for some encounters. Most of the time you'll still be an unhittable dodge machine.

[Lunia]

What a joke this change is. Some nerfs were needed but my pure monk is now worthless. Having a hard time coming up with a decent pure build now. 're roll foddersl now.

[Poolbrain]

The new update might have balanced things for the better but the biggest problem in my opinion is that it's less fun and not because it's less powerful

It's just not bringing anything new to the table that makes you (me) want to build and play with it.

The coolest thing about the infamous update before is that you could suddenly get blinding speed, e-dodge on a strength character in exchange for abandoning your armor. Same way harper paragon allows a dex character to get divine might and shield without 13 strength. That's fun! That update turned to get too overwhelming but it was still on a fun track but with too high numbers.

After so many years of nwn suddenly there's some fresh changes that makes you able to mix up something new, that's what I like about Arelith changes in general.

Balance is important in online games but I'd say even more important is the question: "Does this make things more fun?" "Does it make me inspired? Does it make me want to spend hundreds of hours to see a new characters abilities click together just as I've dreamt they would?"

At the moment it seems monks have lost some of their original "fun stuff" in return for some more numbers.

[Zavandar]

sure wasn't fun for people on the receiving end

[Xerah]

The new update might have balanced things for the better but the biggest problem in my opinion is that it's less fun and not because it's less powerful

I mean, how does getting Epic Dodge for free make your character is more fun? You now don't have to invest in opportunity cost to get it. That's not a fun discussion it is literally because you're happy because it's more powerful since you don't have to pay those costs to get those things.

[Twily]

Poolbrain is saying that it's fun to be able to have special cases where you can have feats you couldn't otherwise have.

That doesn't mean 'It's fun because it's powerful'. It simply means it's fun because it's something new, different and interesting, and that it enables different approaches and playstyles.

It's comparable to how on Arelith, Arcane Archer can be taken from ranger levels. It enables different approaches and can be interesting.

[Xerah]

Hard disagree. It's "fun" because you don't need to make real opportunity cost decisions.

That is very different than ranger/arcane archer.

[NauVaseline]

Xerah you done did good. thank you

[Scurvy Cur]

The coolest thing about the infamous update before is that you could suddenly get blinding speed, e-dodge on a strength character in exchange for abandoning your armor. Same way harper paragon allows a dex character to get divine might and shield without 13 strength. That's fun! That update turned to get too overwhelming but it was still on a fun track but with too high numbers.

Golly gee, sure is a big old sacrifice to remove the ability to equip an item which has the one and only purpose of giving ac and still somehow wind up with even more AC. That's about as sacrifice-y as trading toughness to get +100 HP.

[Poolbrain]

sure wasn't fun for people on the receiving end

Monks were strong in pvp not because they suddenly had more toys to play with but because they could reach high numbers in SR, damage, ab and AC without any sacrifice except losing UMD.

Most notorious example: Getting insane SR without sacrificing other important feats.

Hard disagree. It's "fun" because you don't need to make real opportunity cost decisions.

That is very different than ranger/arcane archer.

It was fun but as you say there was too little "Cost decisions" aside from losing potential multi-classing options.

So having e-dodge and blinding speed as a strength character is super cool because that's never been achievable before in the history of Arelith. But how does one put more complex "opportunity cost decisions" into it? I think that's a good question.

[Xerah]

sure wasn't fun for people on the receiving end

Monks were strong in pvp not because they suddenly had more toys to play with but because they could reach high numbers in SR, damage, ab and AC without any sacrifice except losing UMD.

Most notorious example: Getting insane SR without sacrificing other important feats.

Hard disagree. It's "fun" because you don't need to make real opportunity cost decisions.

That is very different than ranger/arcane archer.

It was fun but as you say there was too little "Cost decisions" aside from losing potential multi-classing options.

So having e-dodge and blinding speed as a strength character is super cool because that's never been achievable before in the history of Arelith. But how does one put more complex "opportunity cost decisions" into it? I think that's a good question.

Then you use the same argument for getting Dragon Knight at lvl 30 fighter. That's never been done in the history of Arelith and my fighter having a dragon mount would be super cool. It's the same argument. That doesn't make it a good thing to do.

More complex decisions are: do you go into DEX to try for epic dodge? Do you go into WIS to get ki 4/5? Do you go strength and try something else? etc. etc. Now you don't get everything for free.

[Scurvy Cur]

sure wasn't fun for people on the receiving end

Monks were strong in pvp not because they suddenly had more toys to play with but because they could reach high numbers in SR, damage, ab and AC without any sacrifice except losing UMD.

Then there should be no problem that these features are no longer available to pure monk, should there. Logically, they remain strong.

[Zavandar]

monks were hijacking RP too. not just roleplay between PCs either, but even DM events. they were so OP that just adding 1 monk to a mix became a balancing issue for events. i'd see NPC ab and ac fly all over the place because they'd have to be adjusted to make the fight challenging for the one monk (but would therefore make very hard for everyone else)

from what i have seen, everyone (myself included) NOT playing a monk as well as even a few monks are very happy about these changes. it was too easy to be good. you could counter most of the server with just a rudimentary knowledge of the game and hitting monk every time you leveled.

so between monks having to actually think again and them being balanced now compared to the rest of the server, i'd actually say yeah, this is definitely more fun.

druids next please <3

[Sockss]

Great update.

Monk build viability of builds and weapon choice increases in a healthy way.

The RP dystopia of monk overlords being immortal and acting like it draws to an end. I look forward to the massive improvement in quality.

[Poolbrain]

Then you use the same argument for getting Dragon Knight at lvl 30 fighter. That's never been done in the history of Arelith and my fighter having a dragon mount would be super cool. It's the same argument. That doesn't make it a good thing to do.

More complex decisions are: do you go into DEX to try for epic dodge? Do you go into WIS to get ki 4/5? Do you go strength and try something else? etc. etc. Now you don't get everything for free.

Nice twisting of my argument but I'm sure you got my idea.

And I agree completely that monks were imbalanced, especially the dexterity version.

To Xerah: That's the thing "strength and try something else?", the old update awakened the old "Str monk dream gimmick". Now it's firmly shut, I'm not sure what that "something else?" would be while keeping a character viable. But I guess that's fine too.

Thanks for your time replying to my post, I'm sorry if I seem to trample over your hard work and time investment. I really appreciate the effort all you developers are putting in to make Arelith better and better!

[MajorArcana]

I didn't play a monk, but you know what?

I like this change.

Why? Because the people who actually enjoy RPing a monk will continue to do so, and the "problem monks" who took the class because they were busted are more than likely going to roll because they're not immortal/unbreachable/a meatbag katana blender anymore.

This is much more than a mehanical sweep-up. It's a fix for part of Arelith's RP setting too.

Thank you, Xerah, for (indirectly) improving the quality of RP on the server.

[Aren]

Thank you for making these changes.