Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

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Tarkus the dog
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Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Tarkus the dog » Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:59 am

In PvP, if you're a non-STR character facing a warlock you stand at a significant disadvantage. This is simply because warlock's can't run out of the iron horn spell, but non-STR toons can run out of spells that counter it. Even characters with high touch AC don't stand much of a chance once they are knocked down, the warlock can either true strike themselves or the summon. It is good that they have something to help them deal with high AC targets, but I don't think it should be a 'I win' button ( as it is at the moment ).

edit: can move it to suggestions, I didn't realize it was unlocked.

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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Aren » Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:17 am

There are numerous ways to entirely negate Balagarn’s Iron horn, as in gain immunity towards it’s effect. I suggest looking into these before crying for a nerf for something that have a chance to actually counter the broken thing that is monks.

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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Ork » Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:03 pm

Agreed for the CD.

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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:06 pm

Str cab easily be buff and the horn has a fairlu low dc. Every time horn is casted, one risks wasting an action

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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:07 pm

Str cab easily be buff and the horn has a fairlu low dc. Every time horn is casted, one risks wasting an action

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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by LIonGraphiK » Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:30 pm

Disagree with the CD.

Warlocks aren't great in PvP as it is lol. They might look good on pen and paper but there are so many ways to counter them.
by Irongron » 08 Dec 2018 20:41
I do not mind people easily being able to escape PvP situations where they are clearly outmatched.

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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Tarkus the dog » Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:31 pm

Szaren wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:17 am
There are numerous ways to entirely negate Balagarn’s Iron horn, as in gain immunity towards it’s effect. I suggest looking into these before crying for a nerf for something that have a chance to actually counter the broken thing that is monks.
And there is also a way for a warlock to get rid of those 'immunities'.

Let's play a little game.

I'm a warlock, you're a dex character. You try to kill me. Tell me how you go about it.

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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Aren » Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:26 pm

Tarkus the dog wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:31 pm
Szaren wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:17 am
There are numerous ways to entirely negate Balagarn’s Iron horn, as in gain immunity towards it’s effect. I suggest looking into these before crying for a nerf for something that have a chance to actually counter the broken thing that is monks.

And there is also a way for a warlock to get rid of those 'immunities'.

Let's play a little game.

I'm a warlock, you're a dex character. You try to kill me. Tell me how you go about it.
Traps.

Being an AA?

Also assuming that a dex characters should be easily able to beat a tank, is a moot argument.

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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Aren » Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:30 pm

When monks have 49 ab, 65 ac, 46 SR (which amounts to about 80% chance to ignore spells by a CL 30 caster), then I’d say “Perhaps other things need to be addressed first.”

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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Nitro » Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:32 pm

Szaren wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:30 pm
When monks have 49 ab, 65 ac, 46 SR (which amounts to about 80% chance to ignore spells by a CL 30 caster), then I’d say “Perhaps other things need to be addressed first.”
One thing being broken or overpowered is not a very good defense for another thing not getting nerfed.

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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Tarkus the dog » Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:46 pm

I step on a trap, it deals 300/600 damage to me ( if they managed to stack it well, and if I didn't stop at the first trap, for some reason). I don't care in particular because I'm a 700 hp character I drink a heal potion or greater restoration to heal myself to full again and use detect trap wand when it's safe for me to do so, and decide to avoid the rest of the traps if there are any.

I timestop, run into the AA and Balagarn's him. He's on the ground now. Me and my balor beat him into a pulp.

Or, I true strike and grease the AA because it has infinite range -- I outdamage him because I'm a DR character + my Balor catches up to him eventually and beats him into a pulp.
Also assuming that a dex characters should be easily able to beat a tank, is a moot argument.
My point is, as I said earlier, that the Iron Horn is a 'I win' button.
Last edited by Tarkus the dog on Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Aren » Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:48 pm

Tarkus the dog wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:46 pm
I step on a trap, it deals 300/600 damage to me ( if they managed to stack it well, and if I didn't stop at the first trap, for some reason). I don't care in particular because I'm a 700 hp character I drink a heal potion or greater restoration to heal myself to full again and use detect trap wand when it's safe for me to do so, and decide to avoid the rest of the traps if there are any.

I timestop, run into the AA and Balagarn's him. He's on the ground now. Me and my balor beat him into a pulp..
You’re being hyperbolic.

You ward yourself with different wards that require stripping, in order to be immune to the KD from balagarns. There are counter plays should you come prepared.

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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Tarkus the dog » Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:50 pm

I use a breach wand/greater breach scroll/mord's scroll thus removing all immunities, and then Balagarn the dex guy again. Me and my balor beat him into a pulp.

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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Aren » Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:51 pm

The same argument could be made for WM timestop KD?

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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Aren » Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:53 pm

Well now you are into different territory. Now it’s not about Balagarns being an Iwin button, because all of the other preparations needed to actually land it. You are reaching friend.

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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Dreams » Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:29 pm

Lots of things you can do against this. Have SR, have some more STR, use Ghostly Visage, use Minor Globe of Invulnerability, Etheral, etc. I mean the sky is the limit! You could even just roll up a monk haha

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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Aren » Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:32 pm

Dreams wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:29 pm
Lots of things you can do against this. Have SR, have some more STR, use Ghostly Visage, use Minor Globe of Invulnerability, Etheral, etc. I mean the sky is the limit! You could even just roll up a monk haha
Exactly.

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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Tarkus the dog » Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:44 pm

Szaren wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:32 pm
Dreams wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:29 pm
funny meme
Exactly.

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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Lunargent » Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:46 pm

Good idea. KD and IKD should also be on a cooldown, for the same reason.

Anyway Ghostly visage is really low on the breach priority list (shadow ghostly cannot be breached, also), and any SR will pretty much negate it. Any boost to strength helps negate it. Saying "well x defeats y" doesn't really mean anything for your argument, because that's just the nature of counterplay in PvP.

What Warlocks need as is to be completely nuked and remade as a real class with more useful spells, but that's another thread in itself.

maybe wait a while after dying to a balagarn's before loading up the forum?

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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Aren » Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:05 pm

Lunargent wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:46 pm
Good idea. KD and IKD should also be on a cooldown, for the same reason.

Anyway Ghostly visage is really low on the breach priority list (shadow ghostly cannot be breached, also), and any SR will pretty much negate it. Any boost to strength helps negate it. Saying "well x defeats y" doesn't really mean anything for your argument, because that's just the nature of counterplay in PvP.

What Warlocks need as is to be completely nuked and remade as a real class with more useful spells, but that's another thread in itself.

maybe wait a while after dying to a balagarn's before loading up the forum?
Exactly.

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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Zavandar » Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:30 pm

where are we getting the idea that sr negates it? A 30 warlock has 30 cl. Sr helmets are 26 (useless). Drow have 32 (rarely useful). Are we getting it mixed up with potions?

also, any class can get disc to counter kd. It's easy for anyone to get mid 60's disc and be very safe from kd from most builds, and true strike is avoidable by just moving. You also can't chain true strike kd.

You can, however, alternate quickened balagarn's and damage spells. A 10 str rogue can only buff up to 22 str (and most gear sets will not accommodate this, as dex/con are higher priorities). That is not safe. Same goes for most casters. Even warlocks are afraid of each other.

globes and visages are on the breach list and will be taken by the opening mords. Now you have to choose between reapplying them and getting blasted/beaten by the summon or just running because the warlock is closing the gap to balagarn's.
Intelligence is too important

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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Tarkus the dog » Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:38 pm

maybe wait a while after dying to a balagarn's before loading up the forum?
What's up with the attitude? Who hurt you?
and any SR will pretty much negate it
Warlocks are 30 CL, SR doesn't help ( unless you're a 50 SR monk, an entirely different topic of it's own ). Cleric SR is hilarious easy to dispel/breach.

'Get some STR' doesn't work either. Getting 20 STR on non STR characters isn't just something anyone can do, and even then you have a 50/50 chance to pass the save. And guess what? The warlock can cast it again, every 3 seconds, as many times as they like.
Anyway Ghostly visage is really low on the breach priority list
Okay, but it is still breachable and will be breached.
shadow ghostly cannot be breached, also
Good point. It can still be dispelled/mord'd, though. Mords will just straight up remove it, and you end up playing the "Me shadow ghostly, you mords scroll" while a big balor is beating you to a pulp.
KD and IKD should also be on a cooldown, for the same reason.
Except discipline is so hilariously easy to get on arelith, a DEX character can rock it up to 70, no problem.
Last edited by Tarkus the dog on Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Aren » Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:39 pm

Zavandar wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:30 pm
where are we getting the idea that sr negates it? A 30 warlock has 30 cl. Sr helmets are 26 (useless). Drow have 32 (rarely useful). Are we getting it mixed up with potions?

also, any class can get disc to counter kd. It's easy for anyone to get mid 60's disc and be very safe from kd from most builds, and true strike is avoidable by just moving. You also can't chain true strike kd.

You can, however, alternate quickened balagarn's and damage spells. A 10 str rogue can only buff up to 22 str (and most gear sets will not accommodate this, as dex/con are higher priorities). That is not safe. Same goes for most casters. Even warlocks are afraid of each other.

globes and visages are on the breach list and will be taken by the opening mords. Now you have to choose between reapplying them and getting blasted/beaten by the summon or just running because the warlock is closing the gap to balagarn's.
And you’ll Just reapply it, since you are a dex class and have e-dodge, dodge ac and all that jazz, and thus you are relatively safe from EB and the summon.

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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Tarkus the dog » Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:43 pm

I mean, sure, but also no. The balor will deal damage to you, and you will slowly but surely lose the fight. Especially if the warlock gets to shoot a grease or two in there. I really want to see a 66 AC rogue ( whose AC drops to 56 by the way, because he just used a scroll ) spending his time re-reading the same scroll over and over again while there is a balor on top of him.

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Re: Balagarn's iron horn should be on a cooldown for warlocks

Post by Zavandar » Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:46 pm

@Szaren

So you'll just reapply this while the warlock changes tactics and spams gdispel on you now for free while you have the balor on you

all because balagarn's has every non-str character on their heels from the get-go

do you play a warlock?
Intelligence is too important

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