PG-13 Rule

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Reallylongunneededplayername
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PG-13 Rule

Post by Reallylongunneededplayername » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:46 am

Bare with me, Players and DM's Devs And owner alike.

Today Spyre made the following anouncement:
Spyre wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:59 pm
Hi everyone,

It seems we need to echo this every year. However, please re-read what Mithreas has written before and then re-read it again:
Mithreas wrote:
Reminder 2 - PG 13

We are very, very strict about enforcing our PG-13 rule. If you break it, you are risking an immediate and permanent ban. We have kids playing on the server, and even some families. My worst moment as an Arelith administrator, was dealing with a situation where an underage player had been exposed to some clearly inappropriate RP. Second worse was a similar situation.

Sinfar exists for that sort of fun. Go do it there. Do not use Arelith for anything that the parents of a 13 year old would reasonably object to seeing their kid involved in. I'm not going to try and come up with an exhaustive list, because it would inevitably be incomplete. If in doubt, picture the other player as a 13 year old with their mother or father watching. I know that's always been a good way for me to self-check my own RP.

And yes, that include using Tells.
We do not want to see anyone conducting in this behaviour - if caught, you will be held to the same standards as mentioned above.

Thank you.
I understand you have to keep your romances Disney, But after that it becomes extreemly vague.

Picking one out: "Do not use Arelith for anything that the parents of a 13 year old would reasonably object to seeing their kid involved in"

-Slave trade.
-Torture
-20% of what NPCs talk about.
-A small portion of the playerbase.
-Intelectual RP. (This is because I often myself have to google what some folk are talking about)

Basicly, If a parent asks me " Is Arelith a good place for my 13 year old" me, Personally would highly advice against it.

Might I offer a less vague set to present that what Mithreas once wrote?

"Arelith follows PG-13 guidelines, This means:

-Keep your romances "Disney" (Yes, I'm sticking to this)
-Keep your gore graphical light
-(other stuff, Filled in by suggestion or Staff cause nothing but those two come to mind) "

Cause everytime I see THAT message, I have no idea if there is something I should or shouldn't do.

And I personally think, That Arelith, By itself, The settings, The mechanics the Server, Is NOT PG-13, More towards 18+.

I hope my feedback helps and that we get somewhat a clearer view on "PG-13".
(>^.^)>) * * * *<(^.^<) <-Magic missles and shield spell.

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DM Senke
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Re: PG-13 Rule

Post by DM Senke » Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:33 am

Permission to use common sense is absolutely granted. We cannot ink every facet of the PG-13 rule, nor is that a worthwhile approach to defining questionable content. There is a famous United States Supreme Court quote from Justice Potter Stewart in Jacobellis v. Ohio that applies here:
I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description [of obscenity]; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it...
The basic premise with Arelith's PG-13 rule is the reasonable person standard. How would a reasonable person, under the circumstances, define the situation?

There will always be some subjectivity to standards like this, as we have not created a master list of acceptable/unacceptable situations. That said, the DM team will act as the final word on what situations exceed the PG-13 rule. Players are expected to adhere to the following 3 action items:
  1. Make every effort to ensure your roleplay does not exceed a reasonable viewing of what is PG-13 material.
  2. When in doubt, ask the DM team. If you do not receive a response in a timely manner for the current RP, it is always better to interpret the situation conservatively. We will get back to you and clarify as soon as able.
  3. Adhere to what the DM team defines. If we say it's wrong, that's the decision--no if's, and's, or but's.
I sympathize with players who want things more defined, as well as those who recognize that different cultures define the standard in different ways. That said, the VAST majority of roleplay on this server does not breach the PG-13 rule. When it does, it is very obvious to nearly every party involved.

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Richørd
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Re: PG-13 Rule

Post by Richørd » Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:56 am

To repeat what the original post here already stated : Arelith is far from PG13 if you actually look at what's happening on the server.

Is that a bad thing? No, not at all. DnD itself is a cruel thing with lots of aberrations, undead monstrosities, evil people and worse that'd tear your throat out in a heartbeat if they could. But it's a cool setting. Violence can be awesome and damn entertaining, as horrid as that might sound at first. Just look at big and popular franchises like Doom, Silent Hill, Witcher or the Warhammer settings (both fantasy and 30/40k). All of them are big, gory slaughterfests that millions of people enjoy.
Why is that a thing? Because it adds to the gritty, realistic feeling and further adds to the immersion.
Immersion being a keyword here.

We have an entire drow house in Andunor dedicated to sewing living materials together to create demonic flesh-abominations that they use as personal guards and slaves.
You can go one loading screen out of Cordor's outskirts and you can find gallows and lore-pieces about public executions by lynchmobs.
Half of the content within the Shadowplane is non-PG13 when viewed from a critical point of view.

Still I do not believe violence is the main concern when it comes to the PG13 rule, rather it's all about the children and their parents' concern about
what if my kid gets dragged into sexy elven fun times? >:/


Warning. I am going to sound like an asshat.
I'd love to know the actual numbers of how many players from Arelith bring their children to the server to try it out. I'd not be surprised if the numbers were realy low. 5% at most. Further : How many of those kids are actually going to find fun on Arelith and stick around? Way less than that. So the total amount of definite children that play on the server might be ridiculously low.
My point here is that I find the whole argument of a very small part of the playerbase saying how they don't want their children to be confronted with sexy elven fun times very tiring. It's basically daily self-castration to serve the needs of a very small fringe group of Arelith's playerbase.
Further, to all the mums and dads that actually do have kids that actively play on the server.
Does your child have unsupervised access to the internet during any part of the day? Do you not have a whitelist set up that only allows your kids to visit websites that you'd allow your kid to see?
If the answer to both questions was yes then it's very likely that your kid is viewing some material on the web that's very unsuitable for their age. Go figure what I mean by that, obviously I can't go into details about that here.

Would I want Arelith or any other PW server I play on to be as loose about their rules as Sinfar is?
Hell no. Screw that degeneracy. If I want to have "fun" fun then there's dedicated websites and games for that.

But the whole paranoia about the PG13 rule obviously stemms from that one incident a few years back when a parent found out about their kid being involved in sexy elven fun times on Arelith.
Know what'd easily solve that?
One of those famous disclaimers upon making a new character that tell you that Arelith is not responsible if you OOCly involve yourself in anything naughty and how Arelith's staff is generally against that sort of activity.
Done.
Problem solved.

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Reallylongunneededplayername
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Re: PG-13 Rule

Post by Reallylongunneededplayername » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:10 am

DM Senke wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:33 am
I sympathize with players who want things more defined, as well as those who recognize that different cultures define the standard in different ways.
This is the core of the issue, Isn't it? We are expected to hold to the version of PG-13 of "Arelith" without knowing what it is.
We get it gains some of the American PG-13: No nudity/Sex or bad language.

Meanwhile it holds content and RP that go past PG-13 (Wich is aproved).
In the past, I can't recall the details, I even had DM's that hold different standings in what count as PG-13.

It is frustrating to have to face every "Year" a reminder to stick to the rules, But without clarification to what these rules are.

I don't think we have to go into every detail, But we had this discussion enough times that there could have been made a decent outline of what and what is not okay.
And instead of Mitheas his "Nae Cybering" and the vague PG-13. We could have had link that sends us to a Wiki page.
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DM GrumpyCat
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Re: PG-13 Rule

Post by DM GrumpyCat » Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:00 pm

*sigh*

Age Rating and Arelith Policy:
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=22444&p=178754&hilit=PG13#p178754

Let's have a chat about what PG13 rating means.
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=21907&p=174647&hilit=PG13#p174647

PG-13 Rule
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=21884&hilit=PG13

Swearing
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=12337&hilit=PG13

PG-13 rule
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2300&p=19843&hilit=PG13#p19843

I'm sure there's more too, but this is what I found with a quick search.
This too shall pass.

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Richørd
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Re: PG-13 Rule

Post by Richørd » Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:29 pm

DM GrumpyCat wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:00 pm
*sigh*

Age Rating and Arelith Policy:
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=22444&p=178754&hilit=PG13#p178754

Let's have a chat about what PG13 rating means.
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=21907&p=174647&hilit=PG13#p174647

PG-13 Rule
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=21884&hilit=PG13

Swearing
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=12337&hilit=PG13

PG-13 rule
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2300&p=19843&hilit=PG13#p19843

I'm sure there's more too, but this is what I found with a quick search.
December 2018.
November 2018.
May 2017.
February 2015.

Surely there are fresher threads that tackled the PG13 rule. But are you saying that people should commit necromancy and revive long dead threads instead of making fresh ones after a public post by an admin?
Or is there another meaning here like "people don't need to rehash this every year"?

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DM GrumpyCat
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Re: PG-13 Rule

Post by DM GrumpyCat » Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:42 pm

Six months ago isn't that long. And it's been stated multiple times that the rating system isn't going to change, replete with good reasons why it won't. I love a good discussion as much as the next person, but I do feel like we're sorta flogging a dead horse here.

Here's one of my favorite posts explaining why we have the PG13 rule.
LittleWeasel wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 12:48 am
I'm going to chime in here to give you guys a bit of an "Admin's Perspective" of the why Arelith came to be as a PG13 Server, and why we strive to keep it as a PG13 Server.

Historically, Arelith was a place for Jjj to play with his friends, his wife, his friends, and their children. So, from early on we have had 10/12/13/14 year olds run around the server. While the original "kids" have outgrown Arelith a long, long time ago, it is still a place where we find parents playing with their children, or where 12/13/14/15 year olds find their own way here. We still, to this day have 2nd generation, and new kids play on our server. And that is Okay. We like it that way, and we want to keep it that way. In a way, Arelith is a safer space for kids to run around in, than some of the neighbourhoods of Detroit, Harlem, Delhi, Berlin, etc.

Another reason, why PG13 is so important to us, is because we have a lot of Adults who enjoy an escape from adult themes. Who enjoy a world, they can play for exploration sake, adventuring sake, and story quality that doesn't lead to sexy elven fun times/Rape/Torture/Gritty blah. There are MANY adults who are very, very uncomfortable with the level of MA that happens on Porn/Horror/Sinfar/sexy elven fun times settings, etc. We want to stay PG13 to keep the focus on Story and Adventure. A place, where a drop of romance is a tool to advance a story arch. A place, where a dribble of violence is equally, a tool for development. A place, where the curiosity and adventure of exploring a world can drive a story. We don't want a server, where whatever happens, is just an excuse to get into someone else's pants. It's boring and tedious and doesn't really give much of a tale for DMs and other players to jump on and enjoy.

And the most important reason, why PG13 is so important is not going to change, and why we crack down as hard as we can on PG13 violations is because at some point in the past, we almost lost the server due to it.
One player lured another player into a cyber session on Skype, using Arelith to get them over. One of those players was a 13 year old. The parents found out and it lead to serious legal back and forth. Let that sink in. We nearly lost the server over a PG13 case, and worst case it COULD have meant a jail sentence for Arelith Admins - namely Mithreas and Jjj who were running the server at the time (all of the legal entities involved were in the USA).

We cannot card people upon entry. We cannot ensure people ARE old/mature enough. And we won't (for the above mentioned first 2 reasons).
We will NOT change our PG13 stance, and we WILL continue to deny cybering/excessive torture/excessive grit/excessive horror/excessive language/etc. in light of our previous experiences. We love and care about our server. We are not going to risk losing it again (however unlikely it is, with many laws and legalities being made more complex due to multi-national hostings, etc. But honestly - it's not worth the hassle, it's not worth the risk).

And so, as Titania has already said: This is never changing.
This too shall pass.

Bibliophile
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Re: PG-13 Rule

Post by Bibliophile » Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:04 pm

Just going to toss this in cause it was asked. I let my kids play here. However I didn't allow it till they were 16. It wasn't because the gore, nor for the torture (I explained that if something became uncomfortable they were to instantly speak up), and it wasn't because of the risk of anything sexual. I held them back because there are too many people online who like to bully. And introducing a child who isn't mentally ready to deal with all the asshats, pardon my usage, is just not a good idea. On any online game there is a risk of someone being mean in tells or stalking your character just to kill them over and over if you're not good at the game yet or probably one hundred other things that can be harmful to a developing mind that I honestly don't want to think about.

So enough of rambling, to answer the question, I have several children, one stayed and played on Arelith for a while before finding another server he liked more, one played once in a while but it just didn't stick for him and none of the others have tried it out yet though at least one wants to. And yes, I monitor what they do and watch while online. I'm "mean" like that.

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Spyre
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Re: PG-13 Rule

Post by Spyre » Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:38 pm

In the above posts by Grumpycat, there are several links and even a quote on the stance of the PG-13 environment. I feel there is not much more to say than that as these ratings will be unlikely to change.

The world can reference and allude to it, much like a PG-13 show can allude to it. However, when it becomes descriptive and played out for people to see then it toes well beyond what is acceptable. And, there have been an uptick of these cases which the DM team have had to handle in the recent months which should not be occurring.

If players have concerns, they can reach out to me privately and I will answer the questions as soon as possible.
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